Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 988 | Sufficient Velocity ##### NetTally 1.8.3
[2] Anyone fit enough for the task
[2] The spiritually impure
[1] Grand Sacrifice
[1] More Blackbirds
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[47][Main] The Law
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Secondary
[43][Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[34][Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x2
[11][Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
[2][Secondary] Establish Annual Festival x2
[1][Secondary] Restore Order
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Kick
[45][Kick] The Law
[1][Kick] Don't kick
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Mining
[48][Mining] Specialist workers
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Smelting
[26][Smelting] Those skilled at hand
[22][Smelting] Those strong of mind and spirit
Total No. of Voters: 51
It seems pretty likely to me that Honorable Death will trigger and make smelting an honorable job: it is the ultimate sacifice of one's life and sanity to the People.
Noting that we have no trouble at all spending Mysticism points. We're still due for expanding our Sacred Warrior numbers, and notice how the Metal research now costs TWO Mysticism points a pop?
Sacred Warriors cost 1 Mysticism, and it sounded like most people didn't want to make too many of those to avid the fragility of the ST forces.
Metal Research costs that much, yes. But honestly, looking back at the thread, do you think we're going to be taking that frequently enough? (Every 2-3 turns) Especially when most of the metal group will probably be pushing implementation now along with more research.
We already had a Study Stars chain broken due to Mysticism being high enough and other things becoming higher priority. If we didn't have Study Stars and such clear evidence that it can do amazing things (Baby Boom has seriously saved us during this crisis - without it we'd be flat dead) I wouldn't be pushing for this. But it does, and that means that I want to make sure that we keep the chain going this time.
Sacred Warriors cost 1 Mysticism, and it sounded like most people didn't want to make too many of those to avid the fragility of the ST forces.
Metal Research costs that much, yes. But honestly, looking back at the thread, do you think we're going to be taking that frequently enough? (Every 2-3 turns) Especially when most of the metal group will probably be pushing implementation now along with more research.
We already had a Study Stars chain broken due to Mysticism being high enough and other things becoming higher priority. If we didn't have Study Stars and such clear evidence that it can do amazing things (Baby Boom has seriously saved us during this crisis - without it we'd be flat dead) I wouldn't be pushing for this. But it does, and that means that I want to make sure that we keep the chain going this time.
The study stars chain was broken because of a combination of having enough econ for provinces to spend and provinces all spending said econ to defend themselves on some level. Yes, even the expand snail cultivation was defensive since it allowed redshore to paint their boats so as to identify each other without dipping into their stores for trade as much.
...But Gwygoytha also had the chiefs pissed at her? ...and for that matter probably pissed off more of the normal folk than Cwriid. Yeah, she was doing so in a way that we the players liked, but frankly "a superwarrior shows up, beats up the nomads, pisses off the chiefs, and leads our people to greatness when the chiefs wisely step aside" is both Gwygoytha's story and what a lot of our People expected when Cwriid hit those first 3 things.
Also, he literally offered solutions to the 2 biggest problems we had when he showed up, most of us just didn't like his solution to the crisis. But scattering the nomads for several generations (which means he did as much damage as the super-comet and the starpox epidemic that they rolled terribly on, and saving us a secondary action each turn in the middle of a crisis), inducing a province worth of people to join us (and frankly i think a March is better than another province, it produces way more actions worth of benefits for us, and means that "oops, nomads started attacking again, your careful megaproject plan gets fucked" doesn't happen), and offering an easy way out of our first major crisis--the fact that its not what most of us would prefer doesn't change the fact that "Get out of crisis at the minor cost of pushing back tax reform and having a slightly worse land inheritance system for now" is frankly an amazing option to have--and its an option i think we'd have voted for if we didn't have Great Sacrifice and/or didn't have the nomads taken care of at this point. I voted to elect Cwriid 1. not expecting it to happen, and 2. knowing it was a supbar solution to the crisis, but preferring a guaranteed subpar solution to the chance that we'd fail our planned solution and have worse things happen
the fact that its not what most of us would prefer doesn't change the fact that "Get out of crisis at the minor cost of pushing back tax reform and having a slightly worse land inheritance system for now" is frankly an amazing option to have
My problem was that "for now." If Creed became king, he'd have pushed his agenda 5 ways to hell and back, and cemented it as much as he could, making it damn near impossible to get rid of it
Stone Age Canal
-Expand Trails - Obviously, the Canal is basically a road made of water - No options given, but stat changes reflect the mechanical rewards of Expand Trails
I mean... thats not a "free secondary action"...Also, the actual effects (aside from the megaproject trait and the bonuses all land management megaprojects get from our Shapers of the Land trait) were:
It still might have been the replacement for the "Free secondary action" that the other megaprojects gave, but 1. i'm also not sure if the other megaprojects had bonuses like this as well that i didn't notice in my reread because i didn't have the character sheets for each turn to compare and 2. either way its clearly possible for a megaproject not to give us a secondary action of our choice
My problem was that "for now." If Creed became king, he'd have pushed his agenda 5 ways to hell and back, and cemented it as much as he could, making it damn near impossible to get rid of it
True--again, i'm not trying to argue "we should have taken this option you fools!" i'm just arguing that its a powerful option, one of the best our hero units have gotten us (with the Scourge megaproject being the best), just one that (most of us) didn't think was worth the downsides
The study stars chain was broken because of a combination of having enough econ for provinces to spend and provinces all spending said econ to defend themselves on some level. Yes, even the expand snail cultivation was defensive since it allowed redshore to paint their boats so as to identify each other without dipping into their stores for trade as much.
It was a combination of causes, yes. One major contributing factor was that Mysticism was at a fairly safe level despite our efforts to spend it, because we simply didn't have good ways to spend it (until the megaproject). Yes, it would've kept going had we not been attacked; Mysticism was still low enough that it probably would've gone on a bit longer. Still, having shamans as an integral part of the process will likely make studying it easier, just as artisans will likely make using it for art purposes easier. I know which of those two I'd prefer.
It seems pretty likely to me that Honorable Death will trigger and make smelting an honorable job: it is the ultimate sacifice of one's life and sanity to the People.
Death can come with honor if you do it for the people, but what do you call a shaman losing his wits to it, doomed to live as a burden to the people as his faculties degenerate.
Honorable Death and our workaholic culture combines to make crippling one of the worst fates imagineable to the People. When you are young, you work. When your body grows too frail to work, you exercise your mind to teach those who now work.
Metal Research costs that much, yes. But honestly, looking back at the thread, do you think we're going to be taking that frequently enough? (Every 2-3 turns) Especially when most of the metal group will probably be pushing implementation now along with more research.
I'd note that most serious research efforts will cost Mysticism. Based on Study Metal, research costs for directed research will only rise, and the Mysticism costs for Megaprojects also rise.
We already had a Study Stars chain broken due to Mysticism being high enough and other things becoming higher priority. If we didn't have Study Stars and such clear evidence that it can do amazing things (Baby Boom has seriously saved us during this crisis - without it we'd be flat dead) I wouldn't be pushing for this. But it does, and that means that I want to make sure that we keep the chain going this time.
False. Study Stars was broken solely due to being attacked on two provinces. We were forced to interrupt the Study because we needed to create defenses in two provinces, and the last action had to prioritize generating the Econ to pay for those two defense buildings.
It has nothing to do with having too much Mysticism, considering our Mysticism wasn't even high at the time. It DID have something to do with our Economy flying straight at the ground to pay for building walls and towers everywhere. Study Stars streak is less important than countering Nomad raids, and if we HAD continued to study the stars, we could fully expect there to be some unrest from having warped priorities...like we did wind up with.
Gwygotha had people frustrated at her, but the chiefs liked her, as did the normal folk. She was a trouble magnet, but all can see that she had a knack for finding problems and solving problems, but any problems arose from the side effects of solving problems. She never caused problems so much as find ways to do things that aren't against the rules, but have never been done before.
She'd never have been appointed High Chief against her will otherwise.
False. Study Stars was broken solely due to being attacked on two provinces. We were forced to interrupt the Study because we needed to create defenses in two provinces, and the last action had to prioritize generating the Econ to pay for those two defense buildings.
Point of fact it was 2 walls and a snails- no econ.
But as to the argument: we had a reasonable amount of Mysticism at the time, enough that the attacks became a higher priority. While we will have to break the chain in times of crisis (so starting a crisis right after the chain broke was good timing) I think we want to avoid this as much as possible and just get that chain bonus. As it is, we'll maybe be able to take up 50% of the output via Sacred Warriors and Study Metal: that's doing one of the two every other turn.
Also I'd rather Expand Holy Sites a bunch and unlock new thing for our Shamans than Art Patronage and improving things that way- the HK seem more likely to do that (considering we stole Proclaim Glory from them) and so we can steal their advances via LoO. We currently have no source for mystical advances (since the ST are dead and never sent use refugees anyway)
Great understatement as it would have been something near impossible to get rid off and even then would have come with a huge stability loss as it is the lazy, comfortable easy solution that does not adress the root of the problem and only changes it's skin
under argony and probably with the result that we never again adress complex problems as it would become a prime example for why trying to take two steps forward at once only ends with us going five steps backwards
Let's not make it prettier then it was, it was the easy option that would have resolved the most difficult problem our civ ever faced, however at the same time it would have come with many powerful, unknown but in the end negative issues attached to it
Point of fact it was 2 walls and a snails- no econ.
But as to the argument: we had a reasonable amount of Mysticism at the time, enough that the attacks became a higher priority. While we will have to break the chain in times of crisis (so starting a crisis right after the chain broke was good timing) I think we want to avoid this as much as possible and just get that chain bonus. As it is, we'll maybe be able to take up 50% of the output via Sacred Warriors and Study Metal: that's doing one of the two every other turn.
Also I'd rather Expand Holy Sites a bunch and unlock new thing for our Shamans than Art Patronage and improving things that way- the HK seem more likely to do that (considering we stole Proclaim Glory from them) and so we can steal their advances via LoO. We currently have no source for mystical advances (since the ST are dead and never sent use refugees anyway)
This part can only be answered with incredulity.
Under what circumstances would attacks not be a higher priority? We have three provinces under attack and three actions. Would you suggest that any of the three provinces not do defense actions because Valleyhome wants to study the stars? Redshore needed the dye to mark ships as our own. The walls helped, but didn't suffice.
If you want to prevent Study Stars from being interrupted, I would suggest you look to building defense infrastructure. Its the only thing which can interrupt actions, and it's a need so deeply pressing that nobody would object to it.
Even if we have Mysticism 0, we'd have aborted Study Stars to build defenses in that scenario.
This part can only be answered with incredulity.
Under what circumstances would attacks not be a higher priority? We have three provinces under attack and three actions. Would you suggest that any of the three provinces not do defense actions because Valleyhome wants to study the stars? Redshore needed the dye to mark ships as our own. The walls helped, but didn't suffice.
If you want to prevent Study Stars from being interrupted, I would suggest you look to building defense infrastructure. Its the only thing which can interrupt actions, and it's a need so deeply pressing that nobody would object to it.
Even if we have Mysticism 0, we'd have aborted Study Stars to build defenses in that scenario.
Wasn't the argument 'we're going to have so much mysticism so we need a way to spend it,' in claims to why we should have our shamans be the ones doing metalworking as opposed to our artisans?
I think you've gone off on a tangent here.
I mean, sure, in theory Study Stars could be broken because our Mysticism is too high in about...
5 turns, if we expand holy sites as a main 2 times, and don't do any actions that cost mysticism like Study Metal.
While I get the idea of not wanting to break study stars, we should not get hung up over it too much. That is what happened to the ST.
Also, if we do care that much, we should get place to the Stars. I'm pretty sure that catalogs Study Stars actions so as to stop the break from being a problem.
TLDR: Don't get hung up on breaking the chain for Study Stars. It means other things get done that our provinces believe is necessary, which is going to be good most of the time.
TLDR: Don't get hung up on breaking the chain for Study Stars. It means other things get done that our provinces believe is necessary, which is going to be good most of the time.
That was the point being made yes. That we don't NEED another drain for Mysticism when doing any kind of serious research(note, Main research actions appear to produce practical gains, while Secondaries seem to be more exploratory research, which produces minor gains that don't really go anywhere unless we get really lucky)
That said I do think that around Mysticism 12 we'd have to break it off/spend it or start triggering events from having too many intellectuals not doing productive work and just thinking, sort of like how our stint at Economy 12 led to future generations looking at an unsustainable time of plenty in the past as a political point. And probably how at Martial 12 we'd probably start looking for excuses to use the giant standing army.
That said I do think that around Mysticism 12 we'd have to break it off or start triggering events from having too many intellectuals not doing productive work and just thinking, sort of like how our stint at Economy 12 led to future generations looking at an unsustainable time of plenty in the past as a political point. And probably how at Martial 12 we'd probably start looking for excuses to use the giant standing army.
I genuinely expect our provinces to just start spending econ on stuff when we stop having to do such massively econ intensive actions to stop a crises and it floats above 6 again.
Study Stars is nice as a non cost action. I'm pretty sure building walls, maybe even expanding black soil, building watch towers, art patronage, are all things our settlements will want to do.
Edit: That is, I've been cataloging our backlog for a new list so I don't take too long to make one, and the vast majority of it is either low econ intensity or econ positive actions, so we'll more than likely start floating econ if we make it through this.
I genuinely expect our provinces to just start spending econ on stuff when we stop having to do such massively econ intensive actions to stop a crises and it floats above 6 again.
Study Stars is nice as a non cost action. I'm pretty sure building walls, maybe even expanding black soil, building watch towers, art patronage, are all things our settlements will want to do.
Edit: That is, I've been cataloging our backlog for a new list so I don't take too long to make one, and the vast majority of it is either low econ intensity or econ positive actions, so we'll more than likely start floating econ if we make it through this.
Well, even if we float Econ, barring an emergency it's very difficult for Valleyhome to find a better action, because Valleyhome would be the lowest priority for improvement actions due to its security and high development, so unless we have at least 9 Econ, it's unlikely to interrupt.
[X] Specialist workers
[X] Those skilled at hand
[X] [Main] The Law
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x2
[X] [Kick] The Law
The People defined themselves around the care they had for the land and for each other, with the scope of who was a person defined broadly. The People were few in the world, but what mattered most was not who your parents were or where you were born, or even what language you spoke, but that you followed the rules for harmony with yourself, your neighbours, the spirits, and the world around you. Through great effort and disturbance to people who had never really been asked these questions before, the chiefs and shamans had actually written every rule and tradition down, sorted out what they felt was appropriate to keep and what should probably not continue on, actually wrote down what the rules were for everyone, and then made sure to distribute out written copies of what all of the rules were and placed in places where everyone could see them. It would still be up to the chiefs and shamans to interpret the edge cases, but now everyone who could read would know exactly what the laws were.
As granary stores continued to fluctuate unpredictably, the predictions of consumption and production clearly off in ways that had never been an issue in previous generations. While some of it was that the rains in recent years seemed less strong than they had been, there were still issues of the harvest not being quite right. Although, with more and more people asking questions about the new steles being installed to proclaim the law, it was starting to become clear that one of the biggest issues was who was supposed to do what work. It seemed plausible that there was a large amount of secondary work that the chiefs had once never even thought about that the People were only doing sporadically because they were afraid that they would be punished or taxed for doing it. This obviously needed to be corrected, but they needed more people who could read the law to be able to make sense of everything and make clear that people what was taxable action and what was not, for both the basic person on the ground and for the lower level chiefs who might be confused or corrupt enough to make a hash of the whole thing.
Megaproject Completed! Written Code of Laws (Copper Age)
Bold, early innovators, the People have established an early written code of laws. While it will undoubtedly change over the centuries, this early establishment of what the rules definitely are with clear guidelines for punishment will serve as an important cornerstone for maintaining stability and clarity of order. Upgrades Enforce Authority to Enforce Law, doubles the strength of one Policy action per turn, and allows for the 'Megaproject support' Policy.
Choose a value to evolve as reward
[] Divine Stewards
[] Protective Justice
[] Land of Opportunity
[] Harmony
[] Honourable Death
[] Nobility in Humility
New social advancements have opened up new abilities for the king to direct lower level chiefs, opening up the Policy system
Policies give directive to the provincial chiefs and allow for greater flexibility in provincial actions, including combining the actions of multiple provinces into Main actions and spending resources even if not normally allowed (resource allocation will avoid reducing a stat to below 1). If there are not enough resources to continue a policy the chiefs will take actions to attempt to support continued policy use (usually Expand Economy to make more Econ to pay for things). Changing policies normally requires a Secondary action, but if war is declared can freely switch to the Defence or Offence Policy if so desired. Also, if a Policy runs out of necessary resources it can also be changed during the midterm for free, if desired.
Balanced - Takes whatever actions seem reasonable. Expand Economy is considered a Policy action for interaction with other effects
Defence - Builds walls and watchtowers
Expansion - Builds new settlements, expands economy, expands forests, and can even create new provinces
Megaproject Support - Provinces can spend actions in support of a megaproject
Offence - Can recruit warriors and specialists, can send war actions against declared enemies
Progress - Takes studying actions and art patronage
Restoration - Takes stability improving actions
Spirits - Expands Holy Sites
Trade - Sends out trade missions, produce art and luxuries
Meanwhile, up north Cwriid, the Old Stallion, takes an honourable retirement in favour of one of his sons instead of waiting to die and potentially letting his heirs squabble among each other at the last minute instead of accepting the initial election. His son, Patryn, the New Stallion, remains an ardent supporter of his father's policies, although as more of a shrewd administrator than brilliant warrior and diplomat he seems like he might be able to actually make the laws as is work... if he sees an actual way forward, which he seems to currently not see.
Dealing with the Stallions
[] Make Patryn heir (+1 Stability, Ends the Crisis on his terms [same as father], with a small, conditional chance of actually sorting it out as is [Heroic Admin, Exceptional Diplomacy, Mediocre War, Poor Mysticism])
[] Snub Patryn (Chance for -1 Stability)
[] Crack down on Young Stallions (-1 Stability, +1 turns to resolve crisis, small chance of civil war)
Of course, the rest of the world will not allow the People to simply be, and events start moving elsewhere. The Dead Priests, long out of the news of the world for the People, have apparently decided that the squabble between the Thunder Horse and the Highlanders is the ideal time to attempt to reconquer territory lost generations ago, although by all accounts they don't do very well in the face of either group, with the Highlanders in particular beating face against both groups, although there are also curious rumours about the Thunder Horse acting very oddly in the far east. The word from the Stallion Tribes is also that new nomadic groups are moving into the area and beginning to harass them, but they will deal with it - although support from the rest of the People would of course be greatly appreciated.
Unfortunately, now feeling confident, the Highlanders of course had to send a trade delegation with the explicit intent to bully and harass the People into reopening their trade with them, and only them, actively excluding the Thunder Horse traders from even entering the territory of the People. This has obviously angered a number of people.
Answer to the Highlanders
[] Agree to their demands (+1 Diplomacy, anger the Thunder Horse, chance of them declaring war)
[] Ignore them (Anger the Highlanders)
[] Kick them out for their disrespect (-1 Diplomacy, anger the Highlanders, chance of them declaring war)
[] Send them packing with a declaration of war (Declare war on the Highlanders, please the Thunder Horse)
Of the available upgrades, these have been given the least opportunity to evolve despite being our older traits. I prefer Harmony, but Protective Justice seems more appropriate.
Spirits - Expands Holy Sites
[X] Spirits
This is something we need, to help take care of Literacy problems we still have with the crisis
[X] Snub Patryn (Chance for -1 Stability)
We are so close. He is a definite shiny, but that means tossing the progress we made on the crises aside.
[X] Ignore them (Anger the Highlanders)
It angers them, but no chance of war is given. We can smooth feathers when we no longer have a crises on our hands.
his obviously needed to be corrected, but they needed more people who could read the law to be able to make sense of everything and make clear that people what was taxable action and what was not, for both the basic person on the ground and for the lower level chiefs who might be confused or corrupt enough to make a hash of the whole thing.
Basically. At the time we had no way of actually fixing the crisis, so at the very least we decided to do the Law megaproject to ease the situation. It kinda worked out, but we still have work to do.
