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Paths of Civilization

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Candesce said:
I think this is the part that's being objected to; there's a fair number of libertarians on SV.

And it's not like people who think that are going to admit that libertarianism is fundamentally incompatable with the direction of our civ so far.
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BungieONI said:
Never eliminate it? Nah I think we can, but it might be a very long and tough road. Kinda like our war against the Blight but longer and harder.

Huh. hehehehehehe Just had a thought.
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I just had a nasty nasty thought.

What happens if we are taken out? We stop fighting the Blight.

No one would know how to fight it. And then every one who tried to settle in our lands would be pretty screwed as the Blight ate everything.

We're basically acting as a lid.


ehehehehehehehehe. Funny image.
 
bluefur87 said:
And a threat to social mobility is a threat to probably the single best thing we've got going for our civ at the moment.
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I thought that was the trees, and our obsession with good land management?

3046 No, seriously, what are you talking about? Social mobility is nice, but the system is kind of being abused to raise up friends of powerful people over people who actually get shit done, so we're now at the wrong end of that?
 
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Sightsear said:
A more valid argument, but not a strong enough one to dissuade me. Yeah, mobility will be decreased, but it also gives legal grounds for the lower classes to say to the upper echelon "No, this is the land that my family has farmed for a thousand years, screw off" and get away from it, because everybody from Lower Valleyhome to the Fishing Villages knows that, yes, it is their farm, and the chief has no right to take that away from them. (The next step is to invent a legal system to manage that though, but I'm just guessing that)
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I agree with you here. But, the noble class created by hereditary laws would quickly become so powerful, or at least it might, that they can kill people for that kinda behavior. Being a serf is functionally not much different from slavery. It might take us a while to get there but... OW.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Apr 18, 2017 at 10:17 PM, finished with 19022 posts and 39 votes.
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tenchifew said:
Pretty much this.

We will just get a bit different set of problems.

We are currently running elections and frankly have a system far ahead of our time, let's not scrap it and exchange it for something that is far worse, just because we are not policing corruption, something we will need to do either way.
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There are gentler ways to say it but this is my thought process. Sorry @Sightsear.
 
tenchifew said:
Pretty much this.

We will just get a bit different set of problems.

We are currently running elections and frankly have a system far ahead of our time, let's not scrap it and exchange it for something that is far worse, just because we are not policing corruption, something we will need to do either way.
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Yeah, the problem with things far ahead of their time is that they tend to break down because the systems to support it are not there. We only just go writng that can be used by everyone(sorta). The ability to support fair elections is debatable at best.
 
Every system will always have their own problem, otherwise communism is always superior. It is not. It simply required a series of traits and values to make it work. The Soviet Union failed because they didn't try to solve the underlying structural problem in their economy. Let not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
Sightsear said:
I thought that was the trees, and our obsession with good land management?
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That's sort of being marginalized at the moment.

We're super good with land management, but with stone age tools it requires a disproportionate amount of work for our actual gains. We need better tools and much more fertile land to actually gain the same immense advantages that our social mobility allows for.

Our social mobility is what allows us to have a government that won't turn on itself at the first chance, stopping us from threatening to truly implode whenever there's a crises. So, yeah, at the moment the social mobility is more important.
 
Alright, but the only other way of solving that I can think of to solve this is by further expanding and empowering the Bureaucracy, which means an even higher Hierarchy score. If you pursue this path, I expect it to be much harder and problematic than throwing your hands in the air, adopting a hereditary system, and start improving that instead would have been..

3047 I wonder what a red Heirarchy score will do to us? Worst case, I'll find out.
 
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bluefur87 said:
That's sort of being marginalized at the moment.

We're super good with land management, but with stone age tools it requires a disproportionate amount of work for our actual gains. We need better tools and much more fertile land to actually gain the same immense advantages that our social mobility allows for.

Our social mobility is what allows us to have a government that won't turn on itself at the first chance, stopping us from threatening to truly implode whenever there's a crises. So, yeah, at the moment the social mobility is more important.
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Basically our sense of community has seen us through some shit. We are quite literally the oldest civ on our continent/area.
 
tryrar said:
Yeah, the problem with things far ahead of their time is that they tend to break down because the systems to support it are not there. We only just go writng that can be used by everyone(sorta). The ability to support fair elections is debatable at best.
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And our system encourages people to develop tools for it.

Our advanced hierarchy?
Came from our system.

Our advanced writing?
Came from our system.

Proper police we are likely to get if we vote a certain way?
Will come as a consequence of our system.

We are developing faster than others because of it.
 
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tenchifew said:
And our system encourages people to develop tools for it.

Our advanced hierarchy?
Came from our system.

Our advanced writing?
Came from our system.

Proper police we are likely to get if we vote a certain way?
Will come as a consequence of our system.

We are developing faster than others because of it.
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Advance writing came from stargazing :p
 
Umi-san said:
Who oversees it?
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Depends on our approach. Currently it likely leads to higher ranked chiefs overseeing the process over lower ranked chiefs(which means the weak point is that we need the top man to be relatively non-corrupt), expanding the Blackbirds likely allows for creating a parallel organization of zealots enforcing it(which means the weak point is cultural value drift and overzealous enforcement) and if we expand Holy Sites sufficiently it may be possible to put the shamans as oversight(which leads to politicisation of the priest caste).

No perfect solution, but increased oversight means that the lesser chiefs must be more circumspect with their corruption, while the higher chiefs must in turn be careful in what they allow, lest they be called to task as well by popular outrage.
BungieONI said:
Never eliminate it? Nah I think we can, but it might be a very long and tough road. Kinda like our war against the Blight but longer and harder.
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Eh, no civilization had ever gotten rid of it entirely to date. The best they had done is putting in enough oversight and stigma that getting caught is ruination.
Candesce said:
I think this is the part that's being objected to; there's a fair number of libertarians on SV.

And it's not like people who think that are going to admit that libertarianism is fundamentally incompatable with the direction of our civ so far.
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Ah, RL politics...not really seeing how it matters, but their beliefs are their own.
bluefur87 said:
And a threat to social mobility is a threat to probably the single best thing we've got going for our civ at the moment. Though our environmentalism will eventually pay off. It's very much the long game with that one.

I think it might actually be paying off now. I suspect that the baby boom had to do with a province critting in a study health roll.
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Naw, Study Stars. It's climate based, and that's what Study Stars grants. We've critted twice on it already. Once for a writing upgrade, once for a Fortunate Weather.
 
veekie said:
Naw, Study Stars. It's climate based, and that's what Study Stars grants. We've critted twice on it already. Once for a writing upgrade, once for a Fortunate Weather.
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Sigh. Do-de-do
Academia Nut said:
In one bright spot of news the shamans had declared an auspicious alignment of the stars, and the weather had been remarkably stable and conducive to farming, leading to unexpectedly massive harvests. Combined with fewer children growing ill and they were predicting a massive increase in population over the next few generations.
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It was at least in part do to general health increase that came from somewhere.
 
I will note, if i understand things right, we aren't considering anything that would let someone amass some enormous amount of power so as to reduce others to serfs--we're not assigning ownership of land, we're assigning the responsability to work land. We're "just" considering whether to set up a system where the people in charge now can set up their friends and family with the easier-to-work/closer-to-town/etc bits of land...and even then while the long term effects are probably worse in terms of social movement, in the short term it might actually be better. From the update discussing this, a big problem is "chief assigns bad/marginal land to hard workers" -> "hard workers do hard work and improve the land greatly" -> "chief reassigns land to friends/family" -> "friends/family get extra food and luxuries for the lauded work of improving marginal land". Like...if i'm understanding right, you don't get extra food or luxuries from having the best land. You get extra food or luxuries from doing extra work, improving land, being pregnant, and straightup corruption (and straightup corruption in cooking the books wont be affected either way by this), and i think thats about it. Letting our chiefs set up their bloodline with the best land is a problem, but its not as bad as it would in a society that didn't treat most things as public property to be doled out according to needs and in recognition of service. Is that accurate, @Academia Nut ?
 
Sightsear said:
Alright, but the only other way of solving that I can think of to solve this is by further expanding and empowering the Bureaucracy, which means an even higher Hierarchy score. If you pursue this path, I expect it to be much harder and problematic than throwing your hands in the air, adopting a hereditary system, and start improving that instead would have been..

3047 I wonder what a red Heirarchy score will do to us? Worst case, I'll find out.
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Do it in the way we are trying with Military. Not by higher numbers, but by better tech.
 
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