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Paths of Civilization

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tryrar said:
The last question in this vein got a waggle hand, so I don't expect the answer to be different.

Basically, he's not gonna answer that, so we'll have to gamble.

@Powerofmind I agree you're panicking and deliberately avoiding the ??? on the assumption they'll always be bad traits.
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Yeah...doesn't hurt to ask though :(

[X] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
[X] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[X] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
[X] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)

Upon further consideration, I think this is a solid path.

  • Everything goes, because at this point, I think we could handle a possible trait that pushes for more sacrifices during mystical crisis.
  • RH, because we can take the risk. Immediate stability gains nullify the chances of going to -2, so the payout looks better in comparison to the risk.
  • Keep our inoculation. This would let the nomads, HK, and DP all take serious hits from the disease (and subsequently lower the threat of their invasions)...remember, the HK aren't allies. Long long term, this would keep other civs from developing inoculation for quite awhile, leaving us with a huge advantage over a longer period.
  • Sacrifice our hero. I'm looking at the legitimacy bonus, and believing that giving up our hero would have a large chance of creating a martyr/legend, and give us a positive trait as opposed to human sacrifice.
  • I think letting in the friendlies keeps things even. It wouldn't risk any serious issues, and would make back the econ we lost from the food sacrifice. Chasing econ would be nice, but 3-4 stability hits is too dangerous (even if it might improve our LoO trait). Let's play it safe.
 
Academia Nut said:
Do please keep the personal attacks down.

Also, I did warn that while you sometimes need to take the hard decisions, the immediately painful ones, I did also warn that self-flagellation in pursuit of some hypothetical long term ideal might also be a bad idea.
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I don't particularly see the action combination I proposed as being self-flagellating. I'm simply taking less risks for a smaller reward (and keeping the cow treatment secrets away from anyone the DP could ever even touch).

If my assumptions on roll values are correct, my choice has a greater than 50% chance of leaving us with exactly the same econ and stability that we had before the vote. It's basically a vote to weather the storm cautiously.
 
[] Medium (-2 Econ, ???)
[] No, they could cause further panic
[] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)
@No7sHere

This would put us at *does quick math*.
(at -1 already) +(0) +(-1)+(0)+(-2)= -4 Stability.

At absolute worst. Which would kill us as a civ.

Best would be.

(at -1 already) +(0)+(0)+1+(-1)= -1 Stability.
Survivors plan. Which I can get behind.
 
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[X] Powerofmind

What the hell people, our civ bled itself white for that Innoculation research. We completed a mega project making us immune to disease just as it hit the world. The Gods clearly favour The People.

We can probably come down and sweep away DPs and Nomads once this is over. We are focusing on being self-sufficient and researching nature. Play to our strenghts, or the guys with the Martial mega projects, juch as the DPs, will sweep us away.

Seriously, read about how they've been acting. They roll a crit every other turn, they are playing it smart, they have enormous amounts of land and people and a super capital city. Let them try to bash the skull of a disease through sacrificing all of their work-slaves, crippling themselves in the process.
 
OK AN, when there's multiple different choices we need to make, having tasks, while annoying to set up, makes for a cleaner looking and easier vote. For future reference
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
[X] Powerofmind

What the hell people, our civ bled itself white for that Innoculation research. We completed a mega project making us immune to disease just as it hit the world. The Gods clearly favour The People.

We can probably come down and sweep away DPs and Nomads once this is over. We are focusing on being self-sufficient and researching nature. Play to our strenghts, or the guys with the Martial mega projects, juch as the DPs, will sweep us away.

Seriously, read about how they've been acting. They roll a crit every other turn, they are playing it smart, they have enormous amounts of land and people and a super capital city. Let them try to bash the skull of a disease through sacrificing all of their work-slaves, crippling themselves in the process.
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We don't have the mil to conquer a region 4 times our size, and the nomads are not going to all die off.
 
[X] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
[X] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)

Welp, that's all I care to contribute. (headaaacchhheee)

2973 Seriously, I am in mildly inconvenient pain here.
 
Guys, we should keep in mind that sacrificing our hero isn't sacrifice in the eyes of our people. He's going to talk to the spirits from their point of view.
 
Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 662 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4
[13] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[12] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
[11] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
[8] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[7] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
[7] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[6] No, they could cause further panic
[6] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)
[4] Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)
[4] Everyone, even the Dead Priests! (Shares far and wide for -1 Diplomacy, +1 Stability, ???)
[4] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
[4] The People must offer aid (-4 Stability, +8-11 Econ, probable overcrowding issues, ???)
[4] Medium (-2 Econ, ???)
[3] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
[2] It should be shared with friendly tribes (Shares with a few groups)
[2] All who need aid must receive it (-5 Stability, +11-15 Econ, overcrowding issues, ???)
[1] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
Total No. of Voters: 21


Ok, I can't even tell what the winning combos are. AN, you might wanna go ahead and redo the vote with tasks.
 
I generally don't like actions that involve heavy sacrifice of any kind to spirits as it seems like these would be actions that increase our level of superstition and also strengthen the idea of sacrifice. I especially do not like the idea of human sacrifice of any kind which is a terrible idea for any reason.
 
hylas240 said:
Yeah...doesn't hurt to ask though :(

[X] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
[X] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
[X] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[X] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
[X] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)

Upon further consideration, I think this is a solid path.

  • Everything goes, because at this point, I think we could handle a possible trait that pushes for more sacrifices during mystical crisis.
  • RH, because we can take the risk. Immediate stability gains nullify the chances of going to -2, so the payout looks better in comparison to the risk.
  • Keep our inoculation. This would let the nomads, HK, and DP all take serious hits from the disease (and subsequently lower the threat of their invasions)...remember, the HK aren't allies. Long long term, this would keep other civs from developing inoculation for quite awhile, leaving us with a huge advantage over a longer period.
  • Sacrifice our hero. I'm looking at the legitimacy bonus, and believing that giving up our hero would have a large chance of creating a martyr/legend, and give us a positive trait as opposed to human sacrifice.
  • I think letting in the friendlies keeps things even. It wouldn't risk any serious issues, and would make back the econ we lost from the food sacrifice. Chasing econ would be nice, but 3-4 stability hits is too dangerous (even if it might improve our LoO trait). Let's play it safe.
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Since the thread moves really fast, i'm gonna quote myself so it doesn't get buried by the torrent of posts :whistle:
 
Okay, a MUCH LESS PANICKED VERSION THAN WHAT EVERYONE IS DOING.

In this situation stability is of the most absolute importance, and we can honestly easily gain econ back. In addition to other things, we will be able to get the econ back from taking in friendly groups.

The risk of hitting negative stability is far too real here. Remember, restore harmony starts out by putting us AT -1 to what our current situation is, and then trying to restore it. There is a very real chance we will hit -4 with many current plans because of this. Simply put, I do not count it as worth the risk.

My biggest problem with the sacrifice, period, is that I do not want to say sacrificing humans ever has any advantage, because it would lead to people thinking the Dead Priests might be on to something. We do not want to justify what is honestly, an enemy culture. Furthermore, this allows us to get it would give us a potential for very good results from the Thunder Horse tribe. Let's not justify the enemy's culture.

The spreading of our megaproject, however, is a serious gamble. I feel it would solidify our religion far more than others, if we were to do it, however, potentially even causing some questioning in the DP camp, which would be most beneficial to us. It also gives us the immediate +1 to Stability we will need to make up the tank of taking the people in.

While taking in only some friendly groups, we will end our stability and econ right back where we started, or ahead if we are lucky.

[X] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
[X] No, they could cause further panic
[X] Everyone, even the Dead Priests! (Shares far and wide for -1 Diplomacy, +1 Stability, ???)
[X] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
[X] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)

This is the safe plan. It can not combo to instakill our civilization through unfortunate stability hits, and we end up with our economy back where it started and our stability at either -1 or 0, without it ever even hitting -2. We also get to apply our heroic diplomacy to the TH in times of crises, being all the more effective for being a reasonable head, and while I admit the spreading to everyone carries it's risks, I believe some of that gives us a good chance of becoming a hero to everyone, and thus the people everyone listens to. We will also need the immediate diplomacy gain to make sure the rolls can't hurt us too badly.

It is a good plan, a safe plan, one that fits within our own moral values, and I highly encourage people to take it.
 
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Mechanical, need to correct a voting issue
  • Threadmarks
    • Hey everyone, I am turning this into a task type vote because the vote was becoming incredibly messy, so here is the new formatting to use:

    Size of Sacrifice to Spirits (Task [Sacrifice])
    [] Small (-1 Econ, chance of stability loss, ???)
    [] Medium (-2 Econ, ???)
    [] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
    [] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)

    Emergency Restore Harmony? (Task [Harmony])
    [] No, they could cause further panic
    [] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)

    Share the scourge warding magic? (Task [Ward])
    [] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
    [] It should be shared with friendly tribes (Shares with a few groups)
    [] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
    [] Everyone, even the Dead Priests! (Shares far and wide for -1 Diplomacy, +1 Stability, ???)

    Where should Twythulmyn go? (Task [King])
    [] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
    [] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
    [] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)

    With disease and comets, everyone has lost their mind and thousands are running scared (Task [Refugee])
    [] Close the borders (-1 Stability, chance of further stability loss)
    [] Only let in some (Significant chance of stability loss)
    [] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)
    [] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
    [] Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)
    [] The People must offer aid (-4 Stability, +8-11 Econ, probable overcrowding issues, ???)
    [] All who need aid must receive it (-5 Stability, +11-15 Econ, overcrowding issues, ???)

    So please format like

    [X] [Sacrifice] Blah
    [X] [Harmony] Blah blah
    [X] [Ward] Blah blah
    [X] [King] Bleh
    [X] [Refugee] Bleh bleh
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • Academia Nut said:
    Hey everyone, I am turning this into a task type vote because the vote was becoming incredibly messy, so here is the new formatting to use:

    Size of Sacrifice to Spirits (Task [Sacrifice])
    [] Small (-1 Econ, chance of stability loss, ???)
    [] Medium (-2 Econ, ???)
    [] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
    [] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)

    Emergency Restore Harmony? (Task [Harmony])
    [] No, they could cause further panic
    [] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)

    Share the scourge warding magic? (Task [Ward])
    [] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
    [] It should be shared with friendly tribes (Shares with a few groups)
    [] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
    [] Everyone, even the Dead Priests! (Shares far and wide for -1 Diplomacy, +1 Stability, ???)

    Where should Twythulmyn go? (Task [King])
    [] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
    [] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
    [] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)

    With disease and comets, everyone has lost their mind and thousands are running scared (Task [Refugee])
    [] Close the borders (-1 Stability, chance of further stability loss)
    [] Only let in some (Significant chance of stability loss)
    [] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)
    [] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
    [] Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)
    [] The People must offer aid (-4 Stability, +8-11 Econ, probable overcrowding issues, ???)
    [] All who need aid must receive it (-5 Stability, +11-15 Econ, overcrowding issues, ???)

    So please format like

    [X] [Sacrifice] Blah
    [X] [Harmony] Blah blah
    Etc. etc.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Sorry, but if you do not set up a complete format that can be copy pasted, I predict this vote to become far, far messier still.
     
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    No one wants to talk to TH ? Fine then just regular diplomacy. I don't feel right turning sacrificing at the response to panic, doesn't mesh well with our past and sounds more like what DP would do.

    [x] [Sacrifice]Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
    [x] [Harmony]Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
    [x] [King]Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
    [x] [Ward]] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
    [x] [Refugee]Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)
     
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    [X][Sacrifice] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
    [X][Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
    [X][Ward] Everyone, even the Dead Priests! (Shares far and wide for -1 Diplomacy, +1 Stability, ???)
    [X][King] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
    [X][Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)

    See here for my reasoning.
    bluefur87 said:
    Okay, a MUCH LESS PANICKED VERSION THAN WHAT EVERYONE IS DOING.

    In this situation stability is of the most absolute importance, and we can honestly easily gain econ back. In addition to other things, we will be able to get the econ back from taking in friendly groups.

    The risk of hitting negative stability is far too real here. Remember, restore harmony starts out by putting us AT -1 to what our current situation is, and then trying to restore it. There is a very real chance we will hit -4 with many current plans because of this. Simply put, I do not count it as worth the risk.

    My biggest problem with the sacrifice, period, is that I do not want to say sacrificing humans ever has any advantage, because it would lead to people thinking the Dead Priests might be on to something. We do not want to justify what is honestly, an enemy culture. Furthermore, this allows us to get it would give us a potential for very good results from the Thunder Horse tribe. Let's not justify the enemy's culture.

    The spreading of our megaproject, however, is a serious gamble. I feel it would solidify our religion far more than others, if we were to do it, however, potentially even causing some questioning in the DP camp, which would be most beneficial to us. It also gives us the immediate +1 to Diplomacy we will need to make up the tank of taking the people in.

    While taking in only some friendly groups, we will end our stability and econ right back where we started, or ahead if we are lucky.

    [X] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
    [X] No, they could cause further panic
    [X] Everyone, even the Dead Priests! (Shares far and wide for -1 Diplomacy, +1 Stability, ???)
    [X] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
    [X] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)

    This is the safe plan. It can not combo to instakill our civilization through unfortunate stability hits, and we end up with our economy back where it started and our stability at either -1 or 0, without it ever even hitting -2. We also get to apply our heroic diplomacy to the TH in times of crises, being all the more effective for being a reasonable head, and while I admit the spreading to everyone carries it's risks, I believe some of that gives us a good chance of becoming a hero to everyone, and thus the people everyone listens to. We will also need the immediate diplomacy gain to make sure the rolls can't hurt us too badly.

    It is a good plan, a safe plan, one that fits within our own moral values, and I highly encourage people to take it.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
     
    [X] [Sacrifice] Medium (-2 Econ, ???)
    [X] [Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
    [X] [Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
    [X] [King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
    [X] [Refugee] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)
     
    [X] [Refugee] Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)
    Want to avoid overcrowding, but not be dicks about it
    [X] [Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
    counter to above
    [X] [Sacrifice] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
    with the many entering, we soak the econ hit and gain back some stability
    [X] [Ward] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
    Gotta get that herd immunity, but also fuck the dead priests (they'd probably just kill anyone we sent). Also, if they get it secondhand, they'll probably botch like we did at first.
    Seriously. Fuck the dead priests.
    [X] [King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
    gotta soak that stability hit, but don't kill him, dammit
    Adhoc vote count started by DocMatoi on Apr 14, 2017 at 6:44 PM, finished with 16670 posts and 23 votes.
    Click to expand...
     
    Again why are we giving away our major advantage, we invested a massive amount of time and resources to get this, it provides a significant bonus to us as long as we have it and no body else does as it allows us to take advantage of these kind of situations? Giving this away will screw us in the long run.
     
    [X] [Sacrifice] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)
    [X] [Harmony] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)
    [X] [Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
    [X] [King] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)
    [X] [Refugee] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
     
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    [X] [Sacrifice] Medium (-2 Econ, ???)
    [X] [Harmony] No, they could cause further panic
    [X] [Ward] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
    [X] [King] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
    [X] [Refugee] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)
     
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