Dragon Ball: After the End

Sucal · Apr 11, 2017

DarknessSmiles said:
its also "always try to end a conflict peacefully" and do you know when that falls apart? when you start facing psychos that can nuke your planet while you are trying to talk to them, or present situations like "fight me or i will kill your friend"?

Do you know what power level you need to destroy a planet in DBZ?

18,000

Basically every Saiyan on the planet could destroy the planet after a bad day, albeit some would find it easier then others. Maya could potentially destroy the planet now, let alone after she starts going through puberty and starts looking for someone to avenger herself against. Hell, Berra could destroy the planet merely by powering up, if he uses Kaio Ken at a high enough level as a Super Saiyan or Golden Oozaru.

Destroying a planet is chump change in DBZ, there are Freiza mooks who could do it.

Also go back and look through Gokus entire rogues gallery. The number of villains that went flat out 'I'm gonna nuke the planet' is...

Zero.

Not even Maijin Buu (a living manifestation of oblivious destruction) or Freiza (who wanted to avenge himself on Goku for killing him) flat out tried to destroy the planet outright for no reason, or threatened to do so like that. Kid Buu did it to flat out kill everyone (rather then trying to find them) and Freiza still wanted to try and kill the monkies himself first, destroying it as a temper tantrum afterwards).

Quest · Apr 11, 2017

Sucal said:
The number of villains that went flat out 'I'm gonna nuke the planet' is...

Frieza straight up nuked Planet Vegeta.

NegativeJ · Apr 11, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
I don't know what you mean by that, but it doesn't matter, because the answer is "it doesn't matter," either way.

I accept without complaint the voter base's desire to pursue pacifism. I disdain any attempt to engage in histrionics as an attempt to 'protest' pacifism.

[glares]

The reality is, Kakara will remain a pacifist character for some time. This pacifism will be tested again.Maybe voters will push a violent course of action to avoid some perceived disaster. Or maybe they won't. Events will occasionally force Kakara's hand, one way or the other, either way.

Poptart is too good a QM to avoid putting Kakara's pacifism to the test and creating situations where she is forced to confront her beliefs.

That being the case, Kakara needs to learn to think about her own views in a mature way. On this, I think Berra had the seed of a key insight- it doesn't so much matter what Kakara decides, as that she actually thinks things through and follows an internally consistent decision that is supported by her introspective and planning abilities.

...

We notice that Kakara didn't even think about the possibility that she would have to use violence to subdue alien scouts. Even though she was an active participant in the scout-hunting project, even though Berra TOLD her she might be called on as a first responder if a team found a scout. She just... didn't think it through.

If Kakara had thought things through more, were more in the habit of reflecting on her actions in the light of her beliefs or vice versa, she might well not be having troublesome dissonance now. Because she'd have been able to make plans and resolutions in advance, resulting either in vote weighting for more peaceful plans, OR Kakara having less trouble with the idea of following a violent plan.

So if the voter base suddenly had 100 fairly violence loving voters and desired to pursue very violent keikaku and burning everything to the ground, what would you do?

Sure? But I don't care, I want to min/max potential problems out of the way and not deal with them in the future.

Gore17 · Apr 11, 2017

Quest said:
It's neither. It's "violence is wrong", straight from the trait description. We need to refine our philosophy to the last resort bit.

Simon_Jester said:
Exactly this.

If we want "Violence is a last resort, but acceptable in the last resort," Kakara's going to have some contemplating to do before she gets there. If we want "Violence is always wrong, literally always no matter what," Kakara's going to have some contemplating to do before she gets there, too.

*facepalms and sighs*

PoptartProdigy said:
They are not how Kakara approaches the problem of violence. The Pacifist Trait is very clear: "Where once you avoided [fighting and violence] out of simple distaste, you now do so out of moral obligation. They aren't unpleasant, they're wrong." I have also gone on-record in the thread as saying that this does not preclude Kakara making violent responses to situations. As ever, the way the thread votes is the way Kakara acts, for one thing. Another example is that traits can occasionally contradict each other. This actively occurring isn't safe, but it's IC for Kakara should it ever arise. But crucially, I've explicitly stated that Kakara may use violence as a last resort without being out of character. I have explicitly characterized the development of traits as the progressive development of gradually-more-nuanced points of view -- and I have specifically called out Gohan-esque, "It is not a sin to fight for the right cause," points of view, over and over again, to some of the same individuals who still based their arguments in this vote on those points of view, as beyond Kakara's ability to reason at this time. This is not how Kakara thinks, and I have made that abundantly apparent.

It very much is "harm others only as a last resort".

DarknessSmiles said:
its also "always try to end a conflict peacefully" and do you know when that falls apart? when you start facing psychos that can nuke your planet while you are trying to talk to them, or present situations like "fight me or i will kill your friend"?

dragonball is not 40K levels of grimdark, but its definitely up there. and that means that a lot of threats need to be met at full power from the start if you dont want to lose something precious. and Pacifist largely prevents that.

And Poptart has explicitly stated a pacifist path is viable, and that there's always a solution. Whether or not we're smart enough to achieve it is a different problem.

And you make a fundamental mistake of thinking like a normal person, where it's impossible to act fast enough to block an attack. Kakara is incredibly powerful, and almost certainly going to get stronger, and has the ability to predict the future. By the time that enemy is firing their attack, Kakara would have already countered.

"Trying non-peacefully" does not equal "not being at full-power and ready to intervene". Kakara is fully willing to negotiate with the metaphorical gun drawn and aimed at the other side of the table.

Sucal said:
Also go back and look through Gokus entire rogues gallery. The number of villains that went flat out 'I'm gonna nuke the planet' is...

Zero.

Not even Maijin Buu (a living manifestation of oblivious destruction) or Freiza (who wanted to avenge himself on Goku for killing him) flat out tried to destroy the planet outright for no reason, or threatened to do so like that. Kid Buu did it to flat out kill everyone (rather then trying to find them) and Freiza still wanted to try and kill the monkies himself first, destroying it as a temper tantrum afterwards).

You forgot Cell.

And there are those that would be willing to unleash something like the Human Extinction Attack though.

Quest said:
Frieza straight up nuked Planet Vegeta.

And if Frieza(pre-training) tried to Kakara, she'd kick his ass up between his ears even under the Masque. Literally 2.5 times more powerful, without the stamina/strain issues.

Sucal · Apr 11, 2017

Quest said:
Frieza straight up nuked Planet Vegeta.

Yes, but he didn't do that on the first meeting.

In fact if I remember correctly he did that in response to a Saiyan Rebellion

(or if you go with shitty retcons, because Beerus was feeling lazy and offended at king vegeta so basically threatened him into it)

Sucal · Apr 11, 2017

Gore17 said:
You forgot Cell.

Eh, I tend to forget he actually tried to do so (despite that being how Goku died)

Even then it wasn't a flat out thing

Gore17 · Apr 11, 2017

NegativeJ said:
So if the voter base suddenly had 100 fairly violence loving voters and desired to pursue very violent keikaku and burning everything to the ground, what would you do?

Sure? But I don't care, I want to min/max potential problems out of the way and not deal with them in the future.

...Your avatar and title are rather ironic.

Sucal said:
Yes, but he didn't do that on the first meeting.

In fact if I remember correctly he did that in response to a Saiyan Rebellion

(or if you go with shitty retcons, because Beerus was feeling lazy and offended at king vegeta so basically threatened him into it)

Exterminating the Saiyan technically wasn't part of the order, last I checked.

Carrnage · Apr 11, 2017

You're right. Nobody has to die. You'll make it so if that's not the case. That's always been your way; you hope for better. You won't stop now!

Poor karkara, i wonder will she defend herself when the enemy kills her on the way to destroying everything she loves?

Sucal · Apr 11, 2017

Carrnage said:
Poor karkara, i wonder will she defend herself when the enemy kills her on the way to destroying everything she loves?

With Words

and Speeches

And the Powah of Wuv.

(The Powah of Wuv being the nickname for the fuckoff huge cannon stored in her hat with magic for if it doesn't like the words and speeches.).

Because Pacifist does not mean 'stomp me harder daddy, I like it'

It means 'I would prefer to talk this out. Won't you join me for a cup of tea at least, before we engage in fisticuffs. Oh, I see you would rather stab me instead. In that case I'll have to politely break your bones and restrain you until you are interested in talking'.

Being a pacifist doesn't mean your defenseless. It simply means you prefer to use words and diplomacy first rather then always rolling MDV FIST!
Even if a DBZ fan fic might mean you need to be a more Martial Pacifist, that doesn't render the power of words useless. It simply means that you try harder to ensure people might want to talk to you first.

After all, under poptarts definition, you can definitely fit in the type of person who is polite, kind and prefers to talk rather then fight... then has enemies he defeats in combat kept alive crucified for a hundred years for daring to attacking him.

Carrnage · Apr 11, 2017

Sucal said:
Being a pacifist doesn't mean your defenseless. It simply means you prefer to use words and diplomacy first rather then always rolling MDV FIST!

Actually as pacifist currently stands Karkara refuses to fight unless she herself is currently under attack or she has explored every option that isn't fighting.

Also have you read the trait?

Pacifist [Foundational Trait]: After hard experiences and a great deal of thought, you have refined your earlier opinions on fighting and violence. Where once you avoided them out of simple distaste, you now do so out of moral obligation. They aren't unpleasant, they're wrong. You still need to learn how to live this way in a society filled with hot-blooded fighters, but you have your beliefs. You gain combat traits, abilities, and skills more slowly, and may encounter barriers to improvement that cannot be surpassed without exceptional pressure. You experience moderate vote weighting at all times against courses of action that result in violence. You gain a small bonus to any check that de-escalates a situation or peacefully resolves it. This may be developed further...

It downright cripples our ability to grow stronger.

Sucal · Apr 11, 2017

Carrnage said:
Actually as pacifist currently stands Karkara refuses to fight unless she herself is currently under attack or she has explored every option that isn't fighting.

Exactly.

Preferring using words words and diplomacy rather then MDV fist (which is punching them in the face to prevent them from trying to influence or convince you of something).

Carrnage · Apr 11, 2017

Sucal said:
Exactly.

Preferring using words words and diplomacy rather then MDV fist (which is punching them in the face to prevent them from trying to influence or convince you of something).

... so try to reason with the guy attacking her allies? Try to talk down the enemy while he hunts down saiyans?

Eventually someone will die and it will be karkaras fault because she refused to defend them.

Pyran · Apr 11, 2017

[X][ALIEN] Accept his surrender.
-[X] Ask him why
[X][DRAMA] You...you don't know. This is a hard question. You need to think. You need time. But at least you're a little wiser now; you know that you still have to think about it. And that's...that's okay.

Gore17 · Apr 11, 2017

Carrnage said:
... so try to reason with the guy attacking her allies? Try to talk down the enemy while he hunts down saiyans?

Eventually someone will die and it will be karkaras fault because she refused to defend them.

Your argument makes no sense. How does "try to reason with the person" equal "let the guy freely slaughter people without regard"?

...No, wait, I get it. You're automatically equating "defending someone" with "fighting the attacker", aren't you?

Carrnage · Apr 11, 2017

Gore17 said:
...No, wait, I get it. You're automatically equating "defending someone" with "fighting the attacker", aren't you?

So you propose trying to block all their blows and strikes and hoping no-one ever outnumbers us or is faster than us?

ElleonXan · Apr 11, 2017

Honestly I could care less how we deal with the alien, but I definitely have to vote for:

[X][DRAMA] You...you don't know. This is a hard question. You need to think. You need time. But at least you're a little wiser now; you know that you still have to think about it. And that's...that's okay.

It actually allows for Kakara to question herself and grow, as opposed to a "ZOMG, I r right, and am never make mistake again" knee-jerk reaction that, honestly, would be an annoying call back to the thing I probably hate most about Berra's character: Atoner.

And speaking of Atoner, here's a modified version of the wording, key'd more towards us voters:
Atoner: Your [players] feel intense guilt for the mistakes [they've] made over the course of [these last few votes], having spent [pages] being forced to watch as everything [a portion of them] strove for spun out of control as a direct result of [the vote]. [They] will nearly always decide to immediately commit to whatever course of action ... that will allow [them] to mitigate or reverse any consequences of [their] failures, and benefits from the full bonus [and/or negatives] of [the players' wordiness] on any checks made in service to that course of action.

NegativeJ · Apr 11, 2017

Gore17 said:
...Your avatar and title are rather ironic.

I am all for love, But I'm also for war!

Why not love both love and war?

Gore17 said:
Your argument makes no sense. How does "try to reason with the person" equal "let the guy freely slaughter people without regard"?

...No, wait, I get it. You're automatically equating "defending someone" with "fighting the attacker", aren't you?

Gore? How do you talk someone down from a killing spree?

Aranfan · Apr 11, 2017

[x][DRAMA] You're right. Nobody has to die. You'll make it so if that's not the case. That's always been your way; you hope for better. You won't stop now!

Carrnage · Apr 11, 2017

Ideals are lovely things, until those you care about are dying.

Gore17 · Apr 11, 2017

Carrnage said:
So you propose trying to block all their blows and strikes and hoping no-one ever outnumbers us or is faster than us?

It's quite a workable idea, considering Kakara is one of the strongest in the galaxy:

PoptartProdigy said:
Vegeta at that time was a galactic factor. Ginyu was a factor. Even Cooler's goons were only factors, if substantial ones. They could be defined as accountable factors within the galactic system. They acted within a status quo, and could feasibly have some impact on it if they overcame other factors' opposition.

Freeza was a powerhouse. He defied classification or accounting by normal standards and could only be realistically opposed by another person of his weight class. By himself, he had enough power to redefine a galaxy's worth of politics and economics despite any quantity of objections from mere factors. Factors lived in the status quo he mandated. That he existed in a galaxy that regularly spat out universe-class powerhouses and multiverse-class factors does not diminish him or his standing. And that is exactly what I mean when I say, "powerhouse."

PoptartProdigy said:
Violence is by dictionary definition very specifically restricted to the application of physical force. Threatening violence is not a physical action. Nobody says you need to follow through on that threat. For that matter, at a high enough power level, powering up doesn't even need to be a threat, implicit or otherwise. If you stand between the instigator and their victim and simply refuse to be moved, is that violence? In fact, people in real life have used this tactic.

Kakara simply has the luxury of it being a survivable one should the aggressor continue their assault.

And remember, several of us have been theorizing about a non-lethal style. And she is a Seer. And has allies.

And quite frankly, if they can get past us anyway, they're probably strong enough to get past us if we went lethal, anyway.

NegativeJ said:
Gore? How do you talk someone down from a killing spree?

With care, compassion and firmness.

Carrnage said:
Ideals are lovely things, until those you care about are dying.

*sighs* Fear-mongering, a time-honoured questing tradition.

Look: none of us are suggesting we stop training, stop getting stronger or be stupid. And if necessary, Kakara will go full-out lethal. The trick is being strong and smart enough we don't have to.

NegativeJ · Apr 11, 2017

Gore17 said:
With care, compassion and firmness.

Freeza?

Gore17 said:
Look: none of us are suggesting we stop training, stop getting stronger or be stupid. And if necessary, Kakara will go full-out lethal. The trick is being strong and smart enough we don't have to.

If that training get's basically negated by Kakara's pacifist trait as she ages up and becomes more in tune with true pacifism.

Carrnage · Apr 11, 2017

Gore17 said:
*sighs* Fear-mongering, a time-honoured questing tradition.

People die in combat. You cannot stick your head in the sand and claim that being unwilling to take aggressive action does not limit karkaras ability in combat.

Gore17 said:
It's quite a workable idea, considering Kakara is one of the strongest in the galaxy:

Karkara has to succeed constantly to prevent an enemy from harming someone she cares about, the enemy only has succeed once.

Gore17 said:
Look: none of us are suggesting we stop training, stop getting stronger or be stupid. And if necessary, Kakara will go full-out lethal. The trick is being strong and smart enough we don't have

Pacifist excplicitly stunts our martial growth, and that malus cannot be overcome without extreme circumstances.

Sucal · Apr 11, 2017

Carrnage said:
Karkara has to succeed constantly to prevent an enemy from harming someone she cares about, the enemy only has succeed once.
.

Your assuming our enemies will all be Maijin Buu style Murderbots, who will do nothing but inflict destruction and chaos upon us and their allies, each of whom is suicidally dedicated purely to that goal and is in no way shape or form going to do any research or pay any attention to our deeds. Which ignores that in canon, there was only one Maijin Buu and even he was talked to and tamed in the end.

Reputation is important.

If you slaughter all that attack you and your friends without mercy, then surprise surprise you'll only be dealing with murderers thugs and people who wont bother trying to surrender, because you've already made clear what the cost is. A reputation for reasonably and tolerance attracts similar, and people who know that you MEAN it when you say you don't want to fight, are more likely to try and talk to you when you don't want to fight.

People have lives, reputations and desires of their own. Very few people go around trying to rape, murder and kill for their own amusement. Especially in Dragonball

Bakkasama · Apr 11, 2017

Carrnage said:
... so try to reason with the guy attacking her allies? Try to talk down the enemy while he hunts down saiyans?

Eventually someone will die and it will be karkaras fault because she refused to defend them.

We are not going to refuse to defend them. If someone is attacking our allies, as Kakara is now and even with the pacifist trait, the vote would be weighted in favor of fighting them. In case you forget, Pacifist is not the only trait we have.

PoptartProdigy said:
Hot-Blooded: While you are a gentle girl, you don't take kindly to insults or abuse. You have a fiery temper, and while you have great practice in restraining it, sometimes lose your head when the right insult is offered. Your QM will identify certain triggers. When those triggers are hit, heavy vote weighting will come into effect favoring aggressive and to a lesser extent violent responses.

We already saw some of those triggers. One when Dandeer talked shit about our family. The other when someone we cared about was in danger.

People. We already have the mechanism that favors violence as a last resort. Kakara is not defined by any 1 trait but by the sum of them. This one still applies regardless of our belief regarding pacifism.

[X][ALIEN] Accept his surrender.
-[X] Ask him why
[X][DRAMA] You're right. Nobody has to die. You'll make it so if that's not the case. That's always been your way; you hope for better. You won't stop now!

Frankly, given the nature of her failure, this feels like the conclusión she would draw even with all year to think about it. The issue, of course, would be what to do if we have to kill someone but that can be worked out. There still should be some time before Kakara faces someone on her relative weight class to créate a technique that helps with that and for weaker opponents she should be strong enough to intimidate into surrender like @Gore17 originally wanted. (On a totaly unrelated note, how come someone named Gore is the one that campaigns against violence?)

NegativeJ · Apr 11, 2017

Sucal said:
Your assuming our enemies will all be Maijin Buu style Murderbots, who will do nothing but inflict destruction and chaos upon us and their allies, each of whom is suicidally dedicated purely to that goal and is in no way shape or form going to do any research or pay any attention to our deeds. Which ignores that in canon, there was only one Maijin Buu and even he was talked to and tamed in the end.

Reputation is important.

If you slaughter all that attack you and your friends without mercy, then surprise surprise you'll only be dealing with murderers thugs and people who wont bother trying to surrender, because you've already made clear what the cost is. A reputation for reasonably and tolerance attracts similar, and people who know that you MEAN it when you say you don't want to fight, are more likely to try and talk to you when you don't want to fight.

People have lives, reputations and desires of their own. Very few people go around trying to rape, murder and kill for their own amusement. Especially in Dragonball

Wait... But this is dragonball... Well still have to deal with them anyway...

Dragon Ball: After the End

The Devil’s Cut

The Great One

LOVE

The Devil’s Cut

The Devil’s Cut

Human

The Devil’s Cut

Human

The Devil’s Cut

Human

Human

Self-Proclaimed King of the Dumpster Fires

LOVE

Team Plasma Grunt

Human

LOVE

Human

The Devil’s Cut

There is always a greater fool

LOVE