[X] [Secondary] Enforce Authority
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission -Highland Kingdom

Since people want to fix our centralization, expanding trails costs econ and gives us 1 centralization. Enforce Authority has a chance for a -1 stability hit, but gives us anywhere from 1-3 centralization.

Looking at the military expansion we'll need next turn, I think possibly taking a stability hit would be better towards solving the centralization problem rather than taking an econ hit (which we really need right now) for only 1 point of centralization.

Trade mission to HK because it doesn't cost econ, and this is the best time to do it (the update just gave us a hint to trade them luxuries, if only to make them more enticing for the lowland minors to join).

This'll leave us with 2 econ as wiggle room next turn.
I'm leery of a stab hit, since that'll take a main action for Restore Harmony/Proclaim Glory if we don't want to eat econ from festivals. Granted, roclaim Glory is basically autosucceed with a Heroic Diplomat King.
 
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So to avoid that we need to trap them like the rats that they are >:3

Like say, build walls so they can't escape?:whistle:

Oooh

[X] [Secondary] Enforce Authority
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom

This way we get get our best chance at it before we start walling our cities. Also we need to get in with the Highland Kingdom.


Crow, Gwygoytha was called the First Student of Crow after all.
Thank you!

And Ashryn is our first Adversarial or Devil Figure?
 
We don't want to introduce instability so early into our new government type, especially if the instability is caused by the king giving himself more power and we intend to do expand warriors next turn.
 
Don't forget that it requires our villages to be walled and since only 2/7 are walled...
No, it just has less effect as more get walled. As a secondary it still risks -1 to 0 stability loss for a 1-3 centralization gain, and nothing else.

We've bet on having more time for awhile now. I can't justify that risk for short term benefits anymore.
I choose to take low econ now for ensured survival later. Lets make use of that maxed legitimacy stat.
Where is the risk? Please explain to me why we should expect the DP to attack us next turn or the nomads to attack us and pose a significant enough threat to matter.

Question to the peoples who might know, since I'm still trying to catch up on the thread discussion but have read all the story posts, who is equivalent to our first mythological Hero. Is it Crow, Gwygoytha? I mean in the sense that Gilgamesh was the first written Hero in our universe/timeline.

I'm blanking on all the awesome people who have shown up in the story.
Crow but he's basically a god now, so Gwygoytha.

Our warriors and shamans would study the art of neighboring peoples, and use that to figure out their psychology and gain an advantage. :V
Or more econ would be given to non-productive laborers so they can make pretty things.
 
Right.

Things that are low:
Stability
Mysticism

Things that are kinda low:
Econ

Things we could burn:
Diplo

[X] [Secondary] Expand Holy Sites
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement - Blue stone quarry

+Mysticism, -Econ paid for by +Econ
And we'll really hit Econ hard next turn along with Stability
Why not hit Festival then? That would give us more Stability.
Thank you!

And Ashryn is our first Adversarial or Devil Figure?
Neither, he is a lesson of hubris
 
@Academia Nut, it doesn't say what we get from doing Build War Carts as a Main. Also, what were the effects of Heroic Mysticism when we did New Holy Site? What additional effects do we have from our trade route with the Metal Miners?
 
man, voting is all over the place right now!

Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 589 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4
[X] Plan Git Gud
No. of Votes: 1

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Secondary
[X] [Secondary] Expand Trails
No. of Votes: 5
[X] [Secondary] Expand Holy Sites
No. of Votes: 4
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom
No. of Votes: 3
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Authority
No. of Votes: 3
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
No. of Votes: 2
[X] [Secondary] Expand Warriors
No. of Votes: 2
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement - Blue stone quarry
No. of Votes: 2
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highlands Kingdom
No. of Votes: 1
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Metal Miners
No. of Votes: 1
[X] [Secondary] Art Patronage
No. of Votes: 1
[X] [Secondary] Expand Economy
No. of Votes: 1
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 14
 
I'm leery of a stab hit, since that'll take a main action for Restore Harmony/Proclaim Glory if we don't want to eat econ from festivals.
The stability hit is only a chance, and limited to -1.

People have been arguing to take RH as [main] for awhile now anyways. If we solve the centralization problem now, instead of patching it with an econ burn, then we'll be able to easily afford any stability restoration next turn (as festival or RH or whatever).

It's just gonna become less effective once we wall our cities, so now is the best chance for it succeeding.
 
We haven't really reached the point of a classical mythic hero in the vein of Gilgamesh just yet. And that will be difficult thanks to our religious structure, which believes that the spirits of prominent ancestors can become more powerful given enough time. Crow is basically our head god, and Gwygoytha is coming to be associated with war, honor, and stuff like that.
Hmm. Interesting. Reason I'm asking about this and not voting is because I feel waaaaaay not caught up enough to do it confidently. Give it another update or two and I might be.


Hey @Academia Nut has the Story of Crow or Gwygoytha been written down? What do we even write on for that matter? Clay tablets? I'm forgetting where, or if this was ever specified.
 
Thank you!

And Ashryn is our first Adversarial or Devil Figure?
We dunno, he might just be considered a douchebag, but might have been made worse than that. I'd say probably just a douchebag tho.
We don't want to introduce instability so early into our new government type, especially if the instability is caused by the king giving himself more power and we intend to do expand warriors next turn.
^ Agreed.
And again, our leader has shitty martial but good admin and great diplo. Do roads so he can reach people more easily and then do RH next turn, and THEN w/ a different leader do EA or Declare Glory.

*Flips faster than Italy in WW1.

[X] [Secondary] Expand Trails
[X] [Secondary] Expand Warriors
Do a Trade Mission to HK, AN supports it.
 
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom

I don't particularly care for the other action. This is definatly needed though as mentioned in the update, the Highland Kingdom is having trouble with the lowland minors who currently favor the Dead Priests even if they're the predominant cause of instability.

Trading with them, in particular with our luxuries, should as demonstrated in the past make them more impressive thus improving their diplomatic skill. This is helpful as we don't want people to become tributaries to the Dead Priests, nor to get used to doing so.
 
Okay, in early, so analysis can hopefully be done before voting goes nuts:

General
Diplomacy 6->6 (+1)

Hmm, that trade mission didn't up Diplomacy, probably because it's not back yet(the +1 after all)

Economy 4->2 (+1)

Economy is not in a very good state at present, but it looks like income will be rolling in.

Stability
Stability 0 (neutral)
Legitimacy 3 (maxed)

We have a new stat in Legitimacy, the ability of the king to stay king. Currently pretty healthy, but we'll see

Organizational
Centralization 3
Hierarchy 7

Hierarchy's cap is 1 higher, but it's also 1 higher in itself now.
Centralization has hit 3, we're going to want some way to raise it.

Cultural
Art 6
Mysticism 1
Prestige 3

And a new stat in prestige! Mysticism is dangerously low though.

Government Type
Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom (Elective)
While a single individual controls overall power, distances and complexity mandate the delegation to other highly empowered individuals. While very effective, conflict between the king and governors can lead to serious problems. In this variant the king is elected by and from the governors
Pros: Access to additional infrastructure projects, bonus to collective action, small number of autonomous actions
Cons: Beware the ambitions of the governors...
And here we see the primary threat of the Provincial Kingdom model, the governors can be ambitious(@Academia Nut, mitigated by Humility?), and potentially splinter off.

Twythulmyn spread the ritual handful of dirt upon Bynwyn's grave as part of the funerary rites that also doubled as part of the transition ritual for the office of High Chief - now 'King'.
So it looks like we still have the bit where you basically have to work until you die for leaders. Finicky that.

While the mystical work and the issue with the nomads and Spirit Talkers had been the obvious ones, Twythulmyn had been deeply involved in some of the more long term effects that few would probably ever understand. Namely, just how much corruption Bynwyn had no idea was going on under his nose. His own personal exploit of 'technically' getting authorization for the trade mission was just one piece of a larger whole of important people 'diverting' resources to their own benefit.
Remember the corruption problem? It's still here just hidden better.
We're going to have to root it out somehow
The decision in his waning years to grant further responsibility to the local chiefs was honestly the only way things could have happened in the long run, the chiefs were accumulating power anyway so the proposal to change things just meant that the king would have a way to keep the reins on even as they grew stronger.
And here's truth, it's just too hard to enforce at present.

Still, while Twythulmyn knew that to some extent he didn't have the skill to root out all of the corruption, there were a few people he made sure to smile extra long at who he suspected would discover a number of 'errors' in their tallies. The damage had already been done had been done, but hopefully he could keep the worst of it under control.
And our king's Average Admin skill can see SOME problems, so there's likely worse. Jury's out on whether it's better to get it over with quickly or if it's better to wait for a more skilled king to reform it.

The Dead Priests had, unfortunately, learned a modicum of subtlety and moderation for a group of people who had a wall of skulls around their main city. Bynwyn had sort of distantly understood what was happening, but since becoming heir Twythulmyn had better access to reports and accounts and could understand what was going on better. Simply put, the Dead Priests were offering a better deal than the Highland Kingdom, since even if you had to send sacrifices to feed the monstrous appetites of their spirits and got caught up in their conflicts, but bending knee to them was still preferable for most to the anarchy of the lowlands - even if half the anarchy was fueled by the Dead Priests. It was hard to tell if the Western Confederacy would have been able to survive the pressures - possibly with more help they might have - but while the new Highland Kingdom definitely could withstand the Dead Priests in their own territory, they were not as amicable to those outside that territory.
And we get insight into the lowland situation, the Dead Priests had a better diplomacy score than the Highland Kingdom somehow, probably means they have a better standard of living even if you accounted for getting sacrificed or enslaved.

That says a lot about the HK's access to luxuries.

-Art Patronage - Wealth of the first and second kind can be used to create wealth of the third kind to the benefit of all ({S}: -1 Econ, +2 Art; {M}: -2 Econ, +3 Art, +1 Prestige, potential innovations)

Intentionally produce Art. Not immediately needed, but useful in future, as we've discovered ways to spend it.

-Black Soil - Production is now regular and huge amounts of trash are turned to black soil every year, but there's always room for more production [Shapers] [King] ({S}: -1 Econ, +1 Econ next turn, additional effects; {M}: +1 Econ, additional effects; used 2 times)

Black Soil turns out to produce Econ as Main, while used as secondary it's just for the additional effects.
Curious, but not urgent

-Build Wall - Long experience with retaining walls has lead to the idea of a settlement wall for protection (Redshore and Stonepen capitals walled) ({S}: -1 Econ, minor walls; {M}: -1 Econ, major walls)

As we see below, Walls are a double edged sword, but we generally want Main Walls rather than Secondary, since the cost is the same but you get much better stuff. And wall only border cities

-Build War Carts - This design has completely supplanted use of the older war wagons, but more of them could be useful on flat lands. Further work might also work out how to make the improved version used by Wendtikwos ({S}: -1 Econ, +1 Martial, has chance to improve design)

No Main benefit for War Carts(probably just the improved roll).
But not really that hot for our martial situation

-Enforce Authority - The power of the king is not to be questioned, and the army can be used to demonstrate that ({S}: -1 to 0 Stability, +1-3 Centralization; {M}: -1 to 0 Stability, lower odds of Stability loss, +2-3 Centralization; the more settlements with walls outside of the capital, particularly large walls, the less effective this action is)

And here, we see one of the big uses of maintaining high Stability with Restore Harmony, we can rapidly burn it to boost Centralization.

-Establish Annual Festival - A yearly harvest festival and a planting festival brings entertainment and stability by reminding people of the good things in life, and can help teach newcomers the ways of the People, so perhaps another festival might be of use? ({S}: -1 Econ, +1 Stability, chance for additional effects; {M}: -1 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Art, chance for additional effects; Max Stability 2)

Festivals produce Stability and Art as Main. Overall a fairly weak action, but a safe one.

-Expand Economy - Encourage the growth of food producing activities such as farming, pastures, or fishing, depending on where focus is placed +1 Econ, potential additional effects; 4 uses remain before requiring new territory)

Our Economy actions have merged together due to our Hierarchy.

-Expand Forests - The People have knowledge of how to regrow and repair forests, which extends to bringing them to places they have never been, with considerable effort ({S}: -1 Econ, grows forest, +1 Econ next turn if in settled territory and controlled; {M}: -1 Econ, grows forest, +2 Econ next turn if in settled and controlled territory)

FINALLY, proof that Expand Forests COSTS Economy. Breaks even as Secondary, small profit as Main.

-Expand Holy Sites - The current places dedicated to the spirits and wisdom have accumulated interesting objects and tellers of stories, but they could be made a bit better ({S}: -1 Econ, +1 Mysticism; {M}: -2 Econ, +2 Mysticism, +1 Art, potential additional effects)

Seems like Main Holy Sites can trigger religious innovations. Art exchange rate is too poor to consider as more than a fringe benefit

-Expand Snail Cultivation - While now more reliably grown and harvested, the snail domestication has only managed to hold environmental changes at bay rather than increase production. More investment would increase cultivation ({S}: -1 Econ, +1 Diplo; {M}: -2 Econ, +2 Diplo, potential additional effects)

Like Holy Sites, the Snails allow some kind of innovation trigger as main.

-Expand Warriors - More men can be inducted into the ranks of the warriors every year and not face major food shortfalls ({S}: -1 Econ, +1 Martial; {M}: -2 Econ, +2 Martial, potential additional effects)

Military innovation trigger as main no doubt.
Need this soon.

-More Blackbirds - Elite scouts and woodsmen, the Blackbirds are a potent force, if not exactly mainline fighters. More of them could prove useful ({S}: -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial more Blackbirds; {M} -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial, many more Blackbirds, additional effects)

Okay, it's interesting that this gets WORSE raw stat wise(from a 1:1 to 2:1) when used as Main, so the Additional Effects are probably something hot.

-More Boats - The things are expensive but oh so useful, so having more of them will increase your capacity for trade, travel, and fishing ({S}: -2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects; {M}: -2 Econ, +1 Econ end of turn, +1 Econ and Diplo next turn, additional effects, tiny chance of innovation; used 2 times)

Secondary Boats is a net Economy loss, Main boats is neutral on Economy for producing Diplomacy. May be valuable if we want to generate Diplomacy and boat innovations, but the tiny chance says we're missing something.

-New Settlement - There are a few new sites that could have new settlements placed on them: a new settlement within Redcoast (can go north or south), blue stone quarry within Sacred Forest ({S}: +1 Econ next turn, increases number of times Expand Econ can be taken; {M} +1 Econ end of turn, increases the number of times Expand Econ can be taken)

As is already known, there's no reason to Main New Settlement overall. We have three potential sites.
Quarry gives us more luxuries, and the coast gives us better trade routes.

-New Trails - The new coastal settlement is supported mostly by boats and the expansion of the limited trails there would be of great utility ({S}: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, other effects; {M}: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects)

Trails trade economy for centraliation, and Main boosts Diplomacy by extending them to trade routes. Very good trade for us usually.

-Proclaim Glory - A recent innovation from the south, by using art the King can promote people to trust his decisions ({S}: -2 Art, +1 Legitimacy; {M}: -3 Art, -1 Econ, +1 Legitimacy, +1 Stability, potential +1 Prestige; Max 3 Stability; modified by Diplomacy skill)

Trades Art into Legitimacy and Stability as well as Prestige. Our Legitimacy is currently maxed, so no use at present.

-Restoration of Harmony - The people are uncertain, and into that uncertainty bad behaviour can flow. Send in the warriors to reassure people and root out corruption and dissent, restoring the proper function of the People. [Harmony+Sacred War] Kicker: Can increase Stability to 3 ({S}: Gain -1 to 2 Stability; {M}: Roll twice, take best result; modified by Administrative skill)

We learn what stat is used for Restoration of Harmony. Administration...so this is probably what we take to get rid of corruption. Still need the initial +1 stability to burn to it first.

-Sacred Warriors - The Blackbirds have proven effective scouts, spies, and killers, but are there other ways to combine the knowledge of spirits with the skills of a warrior? ({S}: -2 Mysticism, gain new type of elite spiritual warrior; [M]: -2 Mysticism, +1 Martial, gain new type of elite spiritual warrior)

Yeesh, this is an expensive action. I suppose innovation is like that. We probably want to use this only on a strong mystic/martial chief as undoing a poor roll is going to be hard.

-Sailing Mission - The new boats have proven themselves capable of exploring long distances, so what else might they discover along the shores of the sea? ({S}: Potential new discoveries; [M]: -1 Econ, improved odds of success)

Secondary Sailing Missions are FREE. We should take advantage of this as a Diplomacy hero.

-Study Forests - The holy site within the sacred forest is the repository of lore on the forests and the things within them, but could the shamans learn more? ({S}: Potential new discoveries; [M]: -1 Econ, improved odds of success)
-Study Health - High Chief Hewthyun responded quite well to the methods the shamans applied, perhaps more widespread application of these methods might have additional benefits? ({S}: Potential new discoveries; [M]: -1 Econ, improved odds of success)
-Survey Lands - Foreigners have discovered strange materials within their lands, are these materials perhaps also found within the lands of the People? ({S}: Potential new discoveries; [M]: -1 Econ, improved odds of success; used 1 time)

Looks like they're free, but we probably want a Mystic king for this. The roll doesn't sound very good, and Maining is costly.

-Trade Mission - Sending a major caravan to another large group can bring new opportunities and find out more about the outside world ({S}: -1 Diplo, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo end of of turn; {M}: -1 Diplo, -1 Econ, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo end of turn, +1-2 Diplo next turn)

So Trade Mission gambles Diplomacy to boost Diplomacy. It doesn't spend Economy unless Mained(which doubles the gains).
We want to do this too...

-War Mission - You can send raiding parties against groups that have declared themselves hostile ({S}: Potential loss of Martial, can prevent Econ and Diplo damage when being attacked, can damage enemy Martial and Diplo; {M}: Probable loss of Martial, can prevent Econ and Diplo damage when being attacked, can damage enemy Martial, Diplo, and Econ, always has a mid-turn decision point)

And so we see Main and Secondary War Missions are tradeoffs on how much damage you can do, but Secondary will never kill anyone(even as you don't take much damage trying)

-The Garden - The canal has greatly expanded the People's knowledge of controlling and directing water. A smaller but more personal project has been proposed to improve Valleyhome [Shapers] [King] (3-6? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)
-Great Dam - The river can run wild and dangerous when the rains come strong, but could it not be controlled by the same principles by which the water on the hills is channelled and contained, merely on a larger scale? [Shapers][King] (4-7? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)

And we have the progress bar and costs now!
These are relatively cheap projects!

Currently actively working on the Scourge Warding megaproject, occupying the [Main] action slot, leaving two [Secondary] actions. Scourge Warding completes this turn. If Diplo or Econ above 6 and there is no megaproject active local chiefs are able to select actions that may consume these resources

VERY interesting. Maintaining a high Economy and Diplomacy has direct action economy benefits
-High Economy excess allows local chiefs to take their own Martial actions(nearly all military actions cost Economy) and to Expand Forests.
-High Diplomacy can currently only be used on Trade Missions, which is to say that having a high diplomacy means that the chiefs will keep boosting it for you


And now to the actual voting...after catching up.
 
So, what do we need?

Centralization- Currently at 3, putting it up to at least 4 would give us the ability to work much better.
Stability-Currently at 0, LoO procs all the time, buffing stability will help greatly in getting us huge econ drops.
Econ- Currently at 2, likely to drop rather heavily. Needs buffing, a comfortable area would be to keep it around 3, ideally 7+ for extra actions.
Mysticism- Is going to drop to 0, desperately needs to be raise
Martial- while the number is 4, our tech and raw troop numbers is crap. We need to specifically main this. All this said, my vote will be.

[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival

Our stability is what allows us to take large strides in econ, and LoO procs frequently. It is unknown if finishing our megaproject will give us more stability, but if it does we will get 2 stability to use towards LoO rather than 1. I also want to make sure we can afford to main expand warriors, but keeping the nomads off of us is much preferred, and I'd prefer to have our heroic diplomat back that.

So next turn could look something like
Main- Expand Warriors
Secondary- Expand Economy
Secondary- New trails

All those trying to enforce authority, please do keep in mind that has a chance of dropping our stability. We do not want to go into -1 stability at this point.
 
No, it just has less effect as more get walled. As a secondary it still risks -1 to 0 stability loss for a 1-3 centralization gain, and nothing else.


Where is the risk? Please explain to me why we should expect the DP to attack us next turn or the nomads to attack us and pose a significant enough threat to matter.


Crow but he's basically a god now, so Gwygoytha.


Or more econ would be given to non-productive laborers so they can make pretty things.
They will attack us because we present a soft target for their well oiled military and bodies for thier slave econony. We knew they were ready two turns ago and threw them some nomads as a snack to buy time.
 
Nope, its a track of what you are suppoe
Err, i assume this was supposed to say "what you are supposed to gain at the start of next turn"?
Also, to add to my earlier question about chief-actions:
Huh, so does that mean that our chiefs can currently only select "new settlement" and "expand economy"? Is there a similar rule for things like art and mysticism, or can our chiefs not do actions that expend anything other than Diplo and Econ?
Do we know how many actions our sub-chiefs will do any given turn? Because if we're getting, say, 2 guaranteed actions that provide econ by the start of next turn, then the current argument over econ usage will be rather different :p
 
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