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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Folks, do I need to ask a mod to lock the thread so we all have a chance to cool down? I'd rather not come down on it, but if this is how you all are mostly going to be discussing the issue, then strictly speaking, Kakara's pacifism is not on-topic at the moment. The chance to resolve this will come once the immediate situation is resolved. If we can't discuss it civilly without a few days off beforehand...

Adept_Woodwright said:
I'll stop with the questions if it's bothering you - I am trying to frame Kakara's ethics in a system I understand.

I realize that, more than likely, the thread would choose... but that doesn't offer insight into what split moment decision Kakara would arrive at via her own moral code. I am highly interested in knowing this, to either reinforce it or provide impetus through votes for change.

And, knowing this might be an uncomfortable question - how would Kakara respond to the above choice, absent the thread's intervention? If the answer is - moment of crisis that results in inaction - then that too is revealing.

I'm not sticking too closely to a given code - I happen to be most versed in two frameworks, and I have some test questions that allow me to differentiate between them, but which are also highly revealing of difficult moral leanings. A small part of me hopes that someone who didn't know about Kantian ethics will take the time to go look it up. And I didn't even major in Philosophy...

The moral decisions revealed through these questions provide a basis to how I will respond to Kakara's dilemma. None of it is in sport of making light of the questions or Kakara's choices.
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No, it's fine, I was just noting that the frame of reference is very informal. Honestly, if you're down to the point where Kakara thinks there is no other option, that's because she's exhausted other avenues. She'd take down the aggressor who refused to stand down. She'd try to do it non-lethally, and be really messed up if she failed, but she'd do it.

Always remember that Kakara's other foundational trait, Hopeful, is an evolution of Driven, and that she's had Decisive for ages. Make it necessary, and she acts.

Bakkasama said:
Could we discuss what to do?

I mean, cognitive disonance was because a difference between Kakara's traits and our actions. Because of hot blooded engaging in battle would not make it worse then.

So what are our goals?
Protect Maya. Violence permissible only regarding this.

Power level? Cat is out of the bag. Because we broke the scouter just flaring it won't intimidate the scout but lets not go into the millons.

We want to remove this trait too.

So... suggestions?

@PoptartProdigy perhaps some clarification is needed as to what is considered violence. Apparently intimidation is not. Is it hurting others or fighting? Wouldn't ki blocking fall into it then? Or restraining techniques?
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vi·o·lence
ˈvī(ə)ləns/
noun
  1. behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
Dictionary definition is what I'm using. Copy -pasted.

ElleonXan said:
Well I feel thoroughly spanked. Long and short of it is, for all the times that I talked about voting for what I felt to be most in character for Kakara, when it came down to the wire and we found a situation that I personally found too overtly disadvantageous... I too faltered and voted for the choice that I personally found to be most beneficial without thinking of the character's own creed. And the sad thing is, I cannot say I wouldn't again.

So I'll be giving this vote a lot of thought before jumping in on it.

On a bit of a less morose note, though: @PoptartProdigy, not to totally change the subject or anything, but what all do the Saiyans recall about Uub? Aside from his participation in the final battle, the whole thing with Maron and the Dragon Balls, and his disappearance, what else would we know about him? His battle style? His philosophy? What general history do we have on him, and what has been lost to time?
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Good question! Uub mostly used a variant of Goku's forms in this continuity, so he had no particular style for them to remember. Otherwise they have general tales of his exploits, fighting alongside the other Z Fighters in the defense of Earth. Unfortunately, those aren't very detailed; the people who knew him didn't think their accounts were going to become history. Nothing was written down, and thus the only sources were word of mouth. I'm sure we all realize how unreliable that is.
 
Ok then. Is there any reason not to move away this to somewhere away from civilization? With or without Maya tagging along?

I mean, we are going to order him to surrender anyways but we should consider what could be said when he does surrender as well as Maya's reaction to Karen showing her stuff while fighting a monster. Minimize variables we have to handle.
 
Bakkasama said:
Ok then. Is there any reason not to move away this to somewhere away from civilization? With or without Maya tagging along?

I mean, we are going to order him to surrender anyways but we should consider what could be said when he does surrender as well as Maya's reaction to Karen showing her stuff while fighting a monster. Minimize variables we have to handle.
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You could, yeah.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
*tap tap tap*

Folks, do I need to ask a mod to lock the thread so we all have a chance to cool down? I'd rather not come down on it, but if this is how you all are mostly going to be discussing the issue, then strictly speaking, Kakara's pacifism is not on-topic at the moment. The chance to resolve this will come once the immediate situation is resolved. If we can't discuss it civilly without a few days off beforehand...
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PoptartProdigy said:
*tap tap tap*

Folks, do I need to ask a mod to lock the thread so we all have a chance to cool down? I'd rather not come down on it, but if this is how you all are mostly going to be discussing the issue, then strictly speaking, Kakara's pacifism is not on-topic at the moment. The chance to resolve this will come once the immediate situation is resolved. If we can't discuss it civilly without a few days off beforehand...
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Wait a minute... Technically this shit storm is your fault in the first place. You knew what would happen and you did it anyway for "good reasons", but you threw gasoline into a growing fire anyway.

Anyway:

[] Flee the field with Cabba and Maya in tow. Know when to fold in a fight.
 
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Helper-San said:
Wait a minute... Technically this shit storm is your fault in the first place. You knew what would happen and you did it anyway for "good reasons", but you threw gasoline into a growing fire anyway.
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I'm running the game according to the rules I've set up. Sometimes bad things will happen in response to what the players choose to do. I'm still going to demand that people be civil in discussing it.
 
NegativeJ said:
Umm... Well... Yes and No... If this quest starts turning toxic enough we might have many angry mods on our heels...
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Yeah, but that would be because the Toxic element is sticking around to pick a fight rather then unsubscribing.

Besides, you guys are all stressing out too much. One bad thing happened, and we got a slight knock on the head for it.

We already knew traits could have negative effects and could backfire on us.

Now we just gotta roll with the punch and see where the story takes us.
 
Sucal said:
Yeah, but that would be because the Toxic element is sticking around to pick a fight rather then unsubscribing.

Besides, you guys are all stressing out too much. One bad thing happened, and we got a slight knock on the head for it.

We already knew traits could have negative effects and could backfire on us.

Now we just gotta roll with the punch and see where the story takes us.
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I'm not worried about this punch, I'm worried about the future punches that Poptart might need to hand out...
 
Well, I've just been reading the lore section again, and what with all this talk about pacifism and non-violent Saiyans and a whole bunch of argumentative stuff I'm trying my very best to stay out of, a question just occurred to me...

@PoptartProdigy what, if anything, do we know about Bra/Bura/Bulla/whichever version of her name you prefer?

I mean, technically since GT is tagged it might as well be referenced and if I'm recalling correctly in GT wasn't she utterly disinterested in violence? How does that go down in Saiyan society, especially with a large sect dedicated to ancestor worship? What does Kakara think personally about it?

And actually, come to think of it, which name for her do people prefer?
 
NegativeJ said:
I'm not worried about this punch, I'm worried about the future punches that Poptart might need to hand out...
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Future punches are a near-certainty, regretfully. This is a big universe. The important thing is that the thread rolls with them. I know you all can.

ElleonXan said:
Well, I've just been reading the lore section again, and what with all this talk about pacifism and non-violent Saiyans and a whole bunch of argumentative stuff I'm trying my very best to stay out of, a question just occurred to me...

@PoptartProdigy what, if anything, do we know about Bra/Bura/Bulla/whichever version of her name you prefer?

I mean, technically since GT is tagged it might as well be referenced and if I'm recalling correctly in GT wasn't she utterly disinterested in violence? How does that go down in Saiyan society, especially with a large sect dedicated to ancestor worship? What does Kakara think personally about it?

And actually, come to think of it, which name for her do people prefer?
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Bra, because that's what I've heard most often. Bra is...mentioned. She is known of.

She's not a socially-acceptable part of the narrative and openly disapproving of her would be similarly so, so she's been glossed over. People know that Vegeta had a daughter named Bra.

That's about it.
 
Carrnage said:
The point of OCPs is that we cannot really stip them until they start.
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But when reacting to them, we can play to our strengths, we can prepare those we love and the society we are sworn to protect. We can weather a storm of things we cannot expect, but we need to take action to do so. Sometimes we simply need to choose between two different problems based around what we feel like engaging with. Instant Transmission is basically a choice not to engage with any traveling based problems, so instead we deal with others automatically.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
People know that Vegeta had a daughter named Bra.

That's about it.
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Innnnnnteresting. So say, just for a purely hypothetical example, I needed a barely important canon character for an omake I'm thinking of writing... she would be a fairly blank slate I could use without contradicting anything in-universe too badly? Sounds good to me. Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Good, because for a moment there I was afraid I'd have to use Chaotzu, and I'm not sure if it would have worked as well... I mean, hypothetically, that is. Um...

ElleonXan away! *whooshing noises*
 
ElleonXan said:
Innnnnnteresting. So say, just for a purely hypothetical example, I needed a barely important canon character for an omake I'm thinking of writing... she would be a fairly blank slate I could use without contradicting anything in-universe too badly? Sounds good to me. Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Good, because for a moment there I was afraid I'd have to use Chaotzu, and I'm not sure if it would have worked as well... I mean, hypothetically, that is. Um...

ElleonXan away! *whooshing noises*
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Have fun. :)
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Future punches are a near-certainty, regretfully. This is a big universe. The important thing is that the thread rolls with them. I know you all can.
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You have more belief in the voterbase then I do, I'm afraid. :oops:
PoptartProdigy said:
Bra, because that's what I've heard most often. Bra is...mentioned. She is known of.

She's not a socially-acceptable part of the narrative and openly disapproving of her would be similarly so, so she's been glossed over. People know that Vegeta had a daughter named Bra.

That's about it.
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I wonder what Vegeta's reaction his daughter being essentially unpersoned was/would be?

...And what would happen if the Garenhulders knew about said reaction?
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Immense fury, and utter panic.
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If/when we start interacting with the afterlife/gods more, I hope to reveal that. Seeing them try to grapple with the fact that she doesn't "fit the narrative", but not respecting her also breaks the narrative, and they can't gloss over her as they have been would be interesting, and possibly a step towards making them less martially-focused.
 
Ugh. I can't get myself in a mentality of a good write-in, but I definitely don't want to go to "Masqued Max", but I also don't want to just "fight", but I also am unsure trying to just run away will work out. I guess it could.

Blargh. Not like the discussions thus far are stirring my creativity.
 
Berra. Is. Coming.

We don't have to do anything, and certainly don't have to tell Maya, all the scouts, and through them the invasion fleet and rest of the galaxy, that there is a twelve million power level on the planet. Berra is skilled enough to subdue this guy without powering up, and he'll be able to if we just get Maya clear.

Solar flare. Grab Maya. IT to the other side of the planet. Let Berra handle the scout.

Powering up to max in front of Maya just takes all our recent mistakes and makes them much, much worse for absolutely no damn reason.
 
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KnightDisciple said:
Ugh. I can't get myself in a mentality of a good write-in, but I definitely don't want to go to "Masqued Max", but I also don't want to just "fight", but I also am unsure trying to just run away will work out. I guess it could.

Blargh. Not like the discussions thus far are stirring my creativity.
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On my phone so can't write much but my suggestion:
1)Engage (x2) cause of hot blooded
2) Choose apropriate PL (500k; 1 M)
3) Grab alien and IT away
4) Demand he surrenders after showing him you are stronger. Ask why are they here and why was he fighting one of our warriors.
5) Discuss the possibility of him and his group getting out of the planet.
6) Call dad later to extract the prisoner. We can discuss how to proceed.

Maybe add something about telephatically reasuring Maya?

@Lailoken offers a valid alternative. I mean, I wasn't keen on his previous attempts because he seemed under the impression Maya wouldn't recognize Dad's ki signature but he didn't mention that just now.

The two issues I see with it is that it might get away and damage our reputation and that it doesn't benefit from the weight hotblooded gives.
 
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Well, it was my plan that got us into this mess, and I would like to thank the cookie donators, especially @Aranfan for helping keep the situation one where we can still salvage some things.

I am not going to enter into any of the debates on pacifism - I believe I made my stance on it clear, and I hope that we, as a thread, can steer Kakara towards that belief. If the thread doesn't want to do so or cannot do so, that is fine. For now, I will simply say, I screwed up. I accept that the crappy situation we find ourselves in is partially my fault, and plan to work to resolve it. Kakara will shortly notice that she is confused, and I expect we'll spend at least one action next year (if we don't get chances before then) developing our traits with CogDis in mind.

At the moment, I am going to attempt to analyze the situation.

Maya is here.

Dad is coming.

Cabba is here. He is probably injured to a similar degree as us, if not worse.

An alien with a style that makes him hard to pin down is here. Reading the style list, I expect it comes closest to Demon Style relative to what we know.

I think we need to ask what our ideal outcome is. Let us fall back to the three basic questions:

What do we want?

  • (Going by traits and vote weighting) We want Maya safe.
  • We want to keep ourselves safe
  • We want to keep Cabba safe
  • We do not want to kill the scout
  • We do not want to hurt the scout (temporarily struck, due to Hotblooded, but not removed from the list because I think we recognize that Kakara will be worse off if we do hurt him)
  • We want information from the scout on his forces
  • We want to minimize (further) destruction
  • We want to minimize disruption of Dad's plan with Maya.

What do we have?

  • A Power Level of 200,000 (which can easily scale up to 300 million), so an OVERWHELMING strength advantage
  • An ally with a power level just shy of 160,000. She is untrained, squishy, and outmatched.
  • An ally with a power level of 3 million, currently restrained to 80,000 by rules.
  • Incoming aid in the form of our father, who can take action to safeguard his plan (as well as having the same overwhelming advantage we do over the enemy).
How can we use what we have to get what we want?

The scout is almost irrelevant. I'm almost tempted to throw my vote towards 'power up to max and vaporize him'. It would benefit from vote weighting, and it would be trivial to accomplish (I doubt we'd even have to roll to defeat him).

BUT it would be wrong. It would hurt Maya (not physically, but emotionally). It would hurt our future selves. And it is wrong.

We can trivially achieve all but the last 3 items on our 'what do we want' list simply by powering up. The biggest question is: How do we minimize the damage to Dad's plan?

I'm thinking that the easiest way to stop this fight is to telekinetically grab the alien, hold him the way Dad once held us. It is a use of power that will demonstrate to the alien that he is completely outclassed, even with no scouter and an unknown native ability to sense ki. It doesn't reveal the knowledge of Solar Flare being in the local arsenal (if it is known to the wider galaxy). With enough spin (hopefully provided by someone with better Deceit than us) it can be sold as a difficult technique that temporarily boosts power.

Thus, I suggest we utilize our allies to restrain the alien, pull Maya away from the fight, and allow Dad to step in and salvage what he can.

[X] Plan Not Again
-[X] Communicate with Cabba and Dad
--[X] Cabba will power up to 800,000 while screaming "Kaio-Ken x 10"
--[X] Cabba will subdue the alien using raw telekinesis to hold him in place
---[X] If Cabba does not feel secure in his ability to do so, he may instead knock the alien out quickly in whatever manner he chooses
--[X] Once the alien is unconscious or removed from the field, Cabba will drop his power level to no more than 20,000 and play up the exhaustion and strain he feels.
--[X] Once Dad arrives, defer to his directions
---[X] Recommend he KO the scout (if this hasn't already happened) and get him to the Training Hall's cells before quickly returning.
---[X] Suggest we all clear the area quickly (Dad and us using IT to get Maya and Cabba out if needed).
-[X] Call Maya back to us while Cabba powers up, pulling her away from the alien if needed.
-[X] If at any point it looks like inaction on our point will leave Maya in danger, power up to full and hold EVERYONE with Telekinesis.
--[X] Dad can explain it to Maya as a 'Seer' thing or a limit break or whatever if he wants.

The goal here is to salvage Dad's plan with Maya and disappear the Scout from his fellows. Having Cabba power up while pretending to use Kaio-Ken out of desperation should be something Dad can explain to Maya without drawing attention to our power level (our 200k can be explained as a willpower push). Cabba's proposed actions should leave Maya with the expectation that she is still the strongest Garenhulder on the planet, but the thought that there are ways other fighters can eclipse her power temporarily (albeit at great cost).

Cabba can fade into the background after this - we can explain him as a former student of Dad's, and Dad can hint that his use of the technique was bad for his long-term health. He can suggest that Cabba is retired from fighting, or Cabba can be worked into whatever plan Dad has.

Make no mistake: this is us losing. We lost this fight, we are walking away from this encounter worse off than we entered it. Nothing about this is a win, it is just a smaller loss.

@PoptartProdigy - Are there any glaring holes in my plan, or places where I'm being obviously stupid, given what we players know? I don't think there are, but I thought CrapBaskets was a good plan...
 
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