Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
veekie said:
Frustration probably. We've failed pretty much every boatroll

The land route won't stay open for long anyways. Whatever he promises, his descendants are statistically unlikely to do much for it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You mistake the situation. His sons and sons' sons are bound to at least attempt to ensure our safe passage, even if they want to fight each other. Basically, it's assurance that even after the nomads fall apart again, all the factions led by his kids will still be friendly-neutral, compelled by honor to ensure we have safe passage at least through their own territories.

It's still functional after the guy dies, and after the guys sons die. It's less effective after the guy dies himself, but it's still pretty damn useful.
 
Just your occasional reminder that while zamin's analysis posts are interesting and informative, he gets things - sometimes important things - wrong at times.

zamin said:
- The High Chief's son had an unfortunate accident while he was studying with the shamans.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He had an unfortunate accident while out attacking the Dead Priests.

zamin said:
On a different note, I'm unsure if the Step Farms has managed to upgrade or not, but the Fishing action dice seems to have flubbed on us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The fishing action has taken our fishing to its absolute edge, which is a fair result when it was only a Secondary action. Actual innovation probably requires it to be a Main action.

zamin said:
Grabbing Pioneering Spirit would boost our Economy up even further and get rid of our current stability issue, but at the cost of Centralization which we need in order to conduct war and coordinate big projects.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It will NOT get rid of our stability issue! AN has stated that while it increases Economy at the cost of Centralisation, it does NOT increase stability. The WC and their predecessors used Restore Order to resolve any reductions in stability, PS didn't do that for them. You are being far too forgiving of the trait considering it caused us three generations of strife with a single activation.


As for the trait we should go for, I'm leaning to go with the Nomads. Pioneering Spirit is off the table for obvious reasons which leaves us the other two options. Three out of five of the Nomads' traits mesh well with our values and the other two are merely comparable to Honourable Death. We'll also have gotten this new trait while we're in peace mode and while we're having peaceful trade dealings with the Nomads, so I'm guessing the dice will lean in favour towards one of the favourable traits. The odds are in our favour for getting a trait better than Honourable Death, so I'm thinking we should take the chance.
 
Alright fine last vote swap I needs ta sleep

[X] Contact with the Metal Workers and safe passage for caravans going that way
[X] Northern Nomads (Probably gain Honour Value)
 
[X] Contact with the Metal Workers and safe passage for caravans going that way
[X] Northern Nomads (Probably gain Honour Value)
 
On what we should ask the nomads, I'm honestly thinking we should have them fight the DP instead of getting us in contact with the metal workers. This turn we won't be able to take advantage of it because we'll have to deal with internal matters - the refugees and wall-building. After that, the deal would be good for one or two more generations max and we won't have enough free actions to really take advantage of what metal we'd get. Remember that even after all this time in contact with the metal workers, copper amongst the nomads is still so rare that only the High Chief has one made of metal. It will take us a long time and a lot of dedication to get to even that point, especially since we're even further away from the metal workers than the nomads.

Getting the nomads to attack the DP on the other hand gives us a number of advantages. It will give us a heck of a lot of breathing room to do stuff without fearing DP attacks, maybe even delaying the wall this turn if we really need to. The close contact with the nomads will synergise well with a Trade Mission, potentially solidifying the friendship between our two people and ending the occasional raids against our northern settlements. There's also the chance that the nomads' war against the DP might be permanent - a healthy outlet for the nomads' warlike way of life, a yearly event that their warriors look forward to and a reason to play nice with us as they'll need our permission to get to the Land of Battle.

In summary, I don't think we should use the favour to contact the metal workers. We don't have enough actions in the next few turns to truly take advantage of it, and even if we did the results would be minor. Noticeable, but ultimately minor. Instead, I think we should have the nomads attack the DP to strengthen our relationship with the nomads and give us protection against the DP.
 
[X] Contact with the Metal Workers and safe passage for caravans going that way
[X] No

Also at some point we really develop something like the phalanx, while we might not have the required techs yet when we do it would be the perfect military model for us, harmony probably synergises well with military discipline rather than warriors and it would neatly reduce the chance of a military aristocracy forming as it depends on large numbers of reasonably well trained soldiers rather than smaller numbers of elite warriors.
 
Andres110 convinced me:
[X] Northern Nomads (Probably gain Honour Value)
[X] There is much glory to fighting in the south
-[X] We will offer you safe passage through our lands
[X] No
 
[X] There is much glory to fighting in the south
-[X] We will offer you safe passage through our lands
[X] Northern Nomads (Probably gain Honour Value)
 
[X] There is much glory to fighting in the south
-[X] We will offer you safe passage through our lands
[X] No (Keeps Honourable Death)
 
Last edited:
Powerofmind said:
You mistake the situation. His sons and sons' sons are bound to at least attempt to ensure our safe passage, even if they want to fight each other. Basically, it's assurance that even after the nomads fall apart again, all the factions led by his kids will still be friendly-neutral, compelled by honor to ensure we have safe passage at least through their own territories.

It's still functional after the guy dies, and after the guys sons die. It's less effective after the guy dies himself, but it's still pretty damn useful.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Uh, I'm dubious his sons are going to hold onto much. Thats why I said the deal is good for two generations. By the third his sons are likely in control of shit all unless whoever goes to the lowlands avoid the succession crisis entirely by not being there.
 
[X] Contact with the Metal Workers and safe passage for caravans going that way
[X] Western Confederacy (Gain Pioneering Spirit)
 
Reminder on Nomad traits:
Academia Nut said:
The nomads have, relative to the People, a higher emphasis on the following values:
  • The honouring of given word and deals
  • Ties of family
  • Fighting as a means of social advancement
  • The glory of battle
  • The importance of the defense of weaker members of your in-group
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Note that probabilities are not absolute. AN rolls for the traits actually received, see how we managed to miss the ST trait we actually wanted.

Positive
-The honouring of given word and deals - Fits decently into our playstyle, though with the risk of being locked into bad ideas that we agreed to previously(e.g. see the Dead Priest war agreement). Probability high, this event involves their given word. Highest probability if taken with the Metal Trade Route.


Negative
-Ties of family - After we spent so much trouble trying to maintain the meritocratic/elected system, getting this will trigger hereditary government in the next social structure event. One of the major reasons why the nomads fragment so easily. Probability moderate-high, their chief claims shared ancestry with our chiefs.
-Fighting as a means of social advancement - Even worse than hereditary system, this is one of the things which ENSURES that their culture breaks up rapidly, and also ensures Martial leaders when we rely on Administrator leaders. Probability low, as it's not very compatible with Harmony.
-The glory of battle - Well, if you WANT to cement Sacred War... Probability moderate-high. Nothing against it, resonance with Sacred War. Higher probability if taken with Send Them To Lowlands, as we'd be interacting most heavily with the glory-seekers

Neutral
-The importance of the defense of weaker members of your in-group - Potential for nepotism(this is almost word for word the excuse our chiefs used for their corruption), but a fusion with Harmony/Land of Opportunity is beneficial down the line. Probability moderate. Nothing for or against it

2/5 better than Honorable Death, 3/5 worse than Honorable Death.
Highest probability goes to the best trait, however, second and third highest probabilities are the second and third worst traits.
 
[Main] Settlement (Coastal? River Confluence?)
[Secondary] Expand Warriors
[Secondary] Wall (Lower Valley)

My priority for the next turn. I think that if we get out ahead of this we can reduce our instability-especially since we have done this before. Which is the critical difference @veekie Last time we were fully reactive, trying to catch up with our problems. This time, we can cut them off at the roots.
 
[X] Contact with the Metal Workers and safe passage for caravans going that way
[X] No (Keeps Honourable Death)


Hangwind said:
[Main] Settlement (Coastal? River Confluence?)
[Secondary] Expand Warriors
[Secondary] Wall (Lower Valley)

My priority for the next turn. I think that if we get out ahead of this we can reduce our instability-especially since we have done this before. Which is the critical difference @veekie Last time we were fully reactive, trying to catch up with our problems. This time, we can cut them off at the roots.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

No, we are reactive again.
Our stability already is at -1.

This is the same situation as last time.

Proactive would have been to act while at zero or positive stability value.
 
Last edited:
Can someone voting for Metal Workers explain to me their long-term plan for dealing with the metal that also takes into account our other priorities and potential crises? Or are people just going "COPPER GET" without fully thinking through the decision and the required actions to get anything out of it?
 
Last edited:
Also, everybody seems to be worried about what will happen when the Hero dies. I don't think it will be a problem. After all, we have a high Diplomacy, and they're going to have a vested interest in keeping the routes open. Some tribes may go bandit, but the vast majority will want to keep the goods flowing.
 
[X] There is much glory to fighting in the south
-[X] We will offer you safe passage through our lands
[X] No (Keeps Honourable Death)
 
Andres110 said:
Can someone voting for Metal Workers explain to me their long-term plan for dealing with the metal that also takes into account our other priorities and potential crises? Or are people just going "COPPER GET" without fully thinking through the action?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I want to get their mining techniques. We know that the ST have gold in their hills anyway, and they're actually quite close to us, so if we can figure out how to find, mine, and work metal, we can get our own operation up and running. More, I want to open up our sailing so we can trade with them without having to go through the Nomads.
 
Andres110 said:
Can someone voting for Metal Workers explain to me their long-term plan for dealing with the metal that also takes into account our other priorities and potential crises? Or are people just going "COPPER GET" without fully thinking through the decision and the required actions to get anything out of it?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The People are doing a lot of construction.
A lot. The tools from metals will be developed organically, as soon as metal becomes available, just like the masonry techniques had been, once upon a time.
 
Hangwind said:
I want to get their mining techniques. We know that the ST have gold in their hills anyway, and they're actually quite close to us, so if we can figure out how to find, mine, and work metal, we can get our own operation up and running. More, I want to open up our sailing so we can trade with them without having to go through the Nomads.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It will take multiple generations and multiple actions before we can get to the point where our mining and metalworking industry ever gets good enough to be of any real use, and that's assuming there's any major deposits of metal within our territory - which there might not be.

Best case scenario is that there is a usable amount of metal in our territory, what then? We only have so many actions and this is something that'll take up multiple by necessity. The entirety of our action plan next turn is already booked, and after that we'll likely have other things to worry about that'll prevent us from putting enough effort into metalworking before the deal runs out.

tenchifew said:
The People are doing a lot of construction.
A lot. The tools from metals will be developed organically, as soon as metal becomes available, just like the masonry techniques had been, once upon a time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We only got the masonry techniques because we had a solid foundation of masonry experienced and worked our way up to the point where an upgrade became possible. We have completely no background in metalworking, we'll be too busy next turn to do anything with it, and that's likely going to be the same for the last two turns for the most part as well.

If all our actions next turn weren't booked up, if we didn't have to worry about the stability issues not being resolved in a single turn, if we didn't have the Dead Priests hanging over us like a sword of damocles, then we would've been in a position to truly take advantage of this trade deal. In the future, we can either develop mining and metalworking independently or send a Trade Mission to the Metal Workers, but right now we just can't.
 
Last edited:
Posting to get some feed-back. Don't know if this plan is a duplicate, but too tired to check. Here is my rec for the upcoming turn:

[Main] Expand Forests
[Secondary] Expand Warriors
[Secondary] Build War Carts

I know this is probably a hard sell, and at the same time it isn't. Expanding the forests as the main is to see what expand the forest in the main position will mean after our War against the Blight was completed (I think we haven't checked yet). Will we expand the forest into untouched land, or something else? If expanding the forest makes it easier to claim land to the south and convert people to our culture more easily like I think it does then this is a no brainer. And if it merely allows us to send trees onto previously tree-less land, then we should do so soon-ish before for some reason we can't expand the forest because we were too busy doing something else.

The two secondary options are chosen because we finally have a high enough econ that building up for war isn't a problem. This way we can focus on annihilating the DP, or at least gain a foot in the door to a better military. During a kind of soft lull in the war against the DP, whom are probably going to be a problem for us. A problem we can't just sail away from. The main goal is to get a military rise now, then choose to attack the DP with a better force, or do something completely different.
 
Hangwind said:
Last time we were fully reactive, trying to catch up with our problems. This time, we can cut them off at the roots.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Uh no? We did the exact same thing.
-Dropped Stability to -1
-Build a Settlement to cover the overpopulation
-Build walls to deter incoming threat
-Threw a festival to recover stability
-Triggered an event that we ate another stability hit immediately after


Theres a reason I suggested Maining Restore Harmony. It's strong enough to offset a similar event, as we have our police get the migrants in line with our culture
Hangwind said:
Also, everybody seems to be worried about what will happen when the Hero dies. I don't think it will be a problem. After all, we have a high Diplomacy, and they're going to have a vested interest in keeping the routes open. Some tribes may go bandit, but the vast majority will want to keep the goods flowing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Vast majority is hilariously optimistic, considering they couldn't even agree on whether to fight us, join us, or go bother someone else last time after a generation long war.

Trade is less memorable than war
 
Last edited:
Andres110 said:
It will take multiple generations and multiple actions before we can get to the point where our mining and metalworking industry ever gets good enough to be of any real use, and that's assuming there's any major deposits of metal within our territory - which there very might not be.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No, it won't. We've already proven that technologies can be adopted very quickly if you have an example provided. And considering the fact that every single hill civilization we have found has had metal in their hills, it's a reasonable bet that we do too.
 
[X] There is much glory to fighting in the south
-[X] We will offer you safe passage through our lands
[X] Northern Nomads (Probably gain Honour Value)
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top