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DoofQuest- a Disney Villains Victorious CK2-Style Quest

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woweed said:
Our odds of outsmarting Xanatos, by taking a deal that gives him intimate knowledge of our internal structure and thoughts seems...Counter-intuitive.
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When did I say anything about Outsmarting him ? Is really hard to do that to the +70 Intrigue guy. I'm talking about using this as another chance for Doof to grow on one of his weak areas, get knowledge from an experience player. As I said before, even if doing this makes us Xanatos "pawn" for a while, we can still grow up, cover our weaknesses and raise our strengths until we grow up to a point Xanatos can't just considera us a Pawn. We still need him as an ally though.
 
woweed said:
And, if we refuse the deal, he won't anymore.
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For about two or three turns, before he wormed his way in again - turns we most likely will be embroiled in yet *another* BS disaster relief effort because of cruel dice gods, meaning that we won´t be able to *make* anything outta this small reprieve.

Sometimes you need to accept, that you can´t "beat an opponent" how you are by banging your chest and ramming your head against the wall in "defiance" - *that´s* the kind of Tropico-esque thinking that keeps getting into hot water just because people INSIST on "proving that we are equal to Kings" in the most boneheaded way possible.
 
We can always use Chat with the bossman to spend time with Mirage, interaction with her isn't locked to that particular training Personal, we can also do Personal Write ins so Doof spends time with his Hero Units. If people want to do the Mirage training thinking that that will help her "do better" arc, I'm not sure that will go as they expect to be honest.
 
TheGleeman said:
For about two or three turns, before he wormed his way in again - turns we most likely will be embroiled in yet *another* BS disaster relief effort because of cruel dice gods, meaning that we won´t be able to *make* anything outta this small reprieve.

Sometimes you need to accept, that you can´t "beat an opponent" how you are by banging your chest and ramming your head against the wall in "defiance" - *that´s* the kind of Tropico-esque thinking that keeps getting into hot water just because people INSIST on "proving that we are equal to Kings" in the most boneheaded way possible.
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What are you referring to when you say 'trying to prove Doof equal to other kings has got us into trouble before'?
 
I feel like training with mirage will evolve us as a CEO.. xany as *king* and we have previous few allies at the moment. Xany tends not to burn resources he spends resources on and working to shore up our intrude is a cost on him as well rather then distracting one of our employees. Especially considing mirage is kinda feel bad about skulduggery
 
Kingster said:
When did I say anything about Outsmarting him ? Is really hard to do that to the +70 Intrigue guy. I'm talking about using this as another chance for Doof to grow on one of his weak areas, get knowledge from an experience player. As I said before, even if doing this makes us Xanatos "pawn" for a while, we can still grow up, cover our weaknesses and raise our strengths until we grow up to a point Xanatos can't just considera us a Pawn. We still need him as an ally though.
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Can we ever do that if he's the one teaching us? He'd know our methods. GIving him more ins is not the way to become an equal.

KRISF said:
I feel like training with mirage will evolve us as a CEO.. xany as *king* and we have previous few allies at the moment. Xany tends not to burn resources he spends resources on and working to shore up our intrude is a cost on him as well rather then distracting one of our employees. Especially considing mirage is kinda feel bad about skulduggery
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Mirage's PA isn't taken by the action I think. And, secondly, that's my point. We're not a resource. And he will spend us if he needs to. Not down for that.
 
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Jastolus said:
What are you referring to when you say 'trying to prove Doof equal to other kings has got us into trouble before'?
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The whole "insist on having seceeded from the US to be *Supreme Ruler of Doofania* even though only we actually care, meaning that all it brough us was the FEds kinda disliking and lowkey stonewalling us on principle" bit for example.

I get it:

We want to "rule" (as in *exert a great deal of influence over our "domain" and get away with it*).

Acceptable plan - it´s just that the *Way* Doof insists on doing it is inexcusably bullheaded and close-minded.
 
woweed said:
Can we ever do that if he's the one teaching us? He'd know our methods. GIving him more ins is not the way to become an equal.


Mirage's PA isn't taken by the action I think. And, secondly, that's my point. We're not a resource. And he will spend us if he needs to. Not down for that.
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Time is a resource. I expect he will have to eat up one of his actions teaching us just as we eat a action learning.
 
Kingster said:
We can always use Chat with the bossman to spend time with Mirage, interaction with her isn't locked to that particular training Personal, we can also do Personal Write ins so Doof spends time with his Hero Units. If people want to do the Mirage training thinking that that will help her "do better" arc, I'm not sure that will go as they expect to be honest.
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I'm not sure dumping the fact onto her that we are laying everything open to Xanatos without even talking to her (because she isn't good enough) will do wonders for her mental state either.
 
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TheGleeman said:
The whole "insist on having seceeded from the US to be *Supreme Ruler of Doofania* even though only we actually care, meaning that all it brough us was the FEds kinda disliking and lowkey stonewalling us on principle" bit for example.

I get it:

We want to "rule" (as in *exert a great deal of influence over our "domain" and get away with it*).

Acceptable plan - it´s just that the *Way* Doof insists on doing it is inexcusably bullheaded and close-minded.
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I want to retract that, for sure, but I think that's a false parallel. Doof doesn't do that because he wants to be "equal to the other Kings". The other Kings DON'T DO THAT. The reason I don't trust Xanay is because he's a blatantly self-interested manipulator who does not have our best interests at heart. He's a useful ally, but we'll never be more than an ally of convenience for him, and we shouldn't treat him as anything more then that ourselves.
 
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woweed said:
I want to retract that, for sure, but I think that's a false parallel. The reason I don't trust Xanay is because he's a blatantly self-interested manipulator who does not have our best interests at heart. He's a useful ally, but we'll never be more than an ally of convenience for him, and we shouldn't treat him as anything more then that ourselves.
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...Just because someone is blatantly self-serving doesn´t mean that they can´t act with the "greater good" in mind at times.

Heck, often enough co-operating with and helping others genuinely is the best option from a self-serving PoV.

Darwin himself said so in his Theory on Evolution - but of course, the more arrogant and elitist doucheheads used his works as justification for their devil-may-care egocentrism and widespread oppression of "the weak".

So yeah, I kinda dislike this false dichotomy of "either all altruism or all self-service"
 
Jastolus said:
I'm not sure dumping the fact onto her that we are laying everything open to Xanatos without even talking to her (because she isn't good enough) will do wonders for her mental state either.
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Well for one Xanatos literally knows all or almost all our secrets I think (Level 3 Inflitrarion). This wouldn't be too different I think, could be wrong. Also the no talking to her or any other councilor is maybe a valid point, but some choices at the end fall up to Doof alone to take, even if Mirage said this might not be the best move I would still vote for it. Or maybe she would agree, who knows.

woweed said:
I want to retract that, for sure, but I think that's a false parallel. Doof doesn't do that because he wants to be "equal to the other Kings". The other Kings DON'T DO THAT. The reason I don't trust Xanay is because he's a blatantly self-interested manipulator who does not have our best interests at heart. He's a useful ally, but we'll never be more than an ally of convenience for him, and we shouldn't treat him as anything more then that ourselves.
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As we stand yes, we would be only an ally of convenience, but that's the point, take our chance to grow until we can become truly an ally of Xanatos, one that's he can't just cast aside. If we can't do that then yes, I think you might be right.
 
TheGleeman said:
...Just because someone is blatantly self-serving doesn´t mean that they can´t act with the "greater good" in mind at times.

Heck, often enough co-operating with and helping others genuinely is the best option from a self-serving PoV.

Darwin himself said so in his Theory on Evolution - but of course, the more arrogant and elitist doucheheads used his works as justification for their devil-may-care egocentrism and widespread oppression of "the weak".

So yeah, I kinda dislike this false dichotomy of "either all altruism or all self-service"
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Oh, for sure. I still want to work with him. But we should treat him as an ally of convenience. And, from where i'm sitting, on its own merits? A +2 ain't worth this.

Kingster said:
Well for one Xanatos literally knows all or almost all our secrets I think (Level 3 Inflitrarion). This wouldn't be too different I think, could be wrong. Also the no talking to her or any other councilor is maybe a valid point, but some choices at the end fall up to Doof alone to take, even if Mirage said this might not be the best move I would still vote for it. Or maybe she would agree, who knows.



As we stand yes, we would be only an ally of convenience, but that's the point, take our chance to grow until we can become truly an ally of Xanatos, one that's he can't just cast aside. If we can't do that then yes, I think you might be right.
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This would almost permanently inhibit our ability to do that. Our increased Intrigue would be useless against him.
 
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[X] Develop Your Center

Ultimately I don't actually think the mechanical end of this matters that much? Yes, Xanatos can get back to Tier 3 infiltration through tricking a councilor easily enough and his personal option is +2 more intrigue than Mirage at base.

For me this is all about the narrative. Where I don't want to be a chess piece for Xanatos, I want us to be a player on the board. I think taking the deal goes against what we did in Doof's mind, its probably going to make Mirage stressed or mad considering her lack of trust for Xanatos, and we have other ways where we can get closer to Xanatos through collabs and research agreements.

I just don't think we have a need to turn ourselves into a junior partner ultimately to reach what we want.
 
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Pawn Lelouch said:
[X] Develop Your Center

Ultimately I don't actually think the mechanical end of this matters that much? Yes, Xanatos can get back to Tier 3 infiltration through tricking a councilor easily enough and his personal option is +2 more intrigue than Mirage at base.

For me this is all about the narrative. Where I don't want to be a chess piece for Xanatos, I want us to be a player on the board. I think taking the deal goes against what we did in Doof's mind, its probably going to make Mirage stressed or mad considering her lack of trust for Xanatos, and we have other ways where we can get closer to Xanatos through collabs and research agreements.

I just don't think we have a need to turn ourselves into a junior partner ultimately to reach what we want.
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Yep. Even the phrasing "promotion"...We're not his subordinate.
 
woweed said:
Oh, for sure. I still want to work with him. But we should treat him as an ally of convenience. And, from where i'm sitting, on its own merits? A +2 ain't worth this.


This would almost permanently inhibit our ability to do that. Our increased Intrigue would be useless against him.
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I mean, is there any plans of going against him or taking him down? Having him as an ally, in our corner, is on of the best things we can do. Yeah, if we do this, if would be hard/impossible to try moves against him, but if depends on what area we would be competing.
 
bigking321 said:
Yes, absolutely.

But it would be good against EVERYONE ELSE!!! Like Doom and Toffee and Bellwether and the government.
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Yeah...A +2 ain't worth giving mr. 72 more control in our relationship then he has.

Kingster said:
I mean, is there any plans of going against him or taking him down, having him as an ally, in our corner, is on of the best things we can do. Yeah, if we do this, if would be hard/impossible to try moves against him, but if depends on what area we would be competing.
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We run a corporation. So...Yeah, the odds of us competing on something at SOME point are basically inevitable. And, besides, we can be an ally without letting him get this close. Hell, this vote explicitly won't even sour his opinion if we vote no.
 
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