Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:

I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
Last edited:
By Grungni's Baldric.

These are Dwarfs, Runesmiths. Even if they write a few things down they aren't going to throw all caution into the wind. If anything they'll get more obsessed about the security of books and start a literary security arms race.

Could people stop with the fearmongering?
 
remember yorri guys? the man dozens of coded ciphers just to talk in, imagine how coded and secured his own notebooks are, dwarves will not skimp on the protections.
 
[X] Plan: The Bird Is The Word
[X] Plan: Durin's Dream
[X] Plan All the Facilities, 3.88 maximum
[X] Plan Max Benefits
[X] Plan Max Class, Forum, Proc and minor Forg and Lib

I've read the arguments against books and stand entirely unconvinced. "But someone we inspire might some day fail to take sufficient security precautions!" is arguing to deny utility purely out of fear. Utterly absurd.

We should have more trust in our fellow dwarfs than that, especially when we've already seen how dwarfs do write down their knowledge and the level of security they go through to protect secrets.
 
A dwarf we inspired to discuss his work with his peers might one day train an apprentice, who will become careless and be overheard by a chaos dwarf.

Ergo we should ensure that every runesmith lives in solidary confinement under 24/7 guard.

Loose lips sink ships.
 
There was no disagreement on this first point I think that was just a breakdown of communication. I know that fewer conservatives will attend the academy well we have lowered standing with them my counterpoint to this was simply that there's no way around having lowered standing with them as either we take it now or we take it later but regardless of when we take it there's not going to be an instant +1 conservative standing we're going to be able to grab for it to compensate as we're doing with portions of the academy currently, therefore, we might as well do it now.

You grabbed the middle paragraph before I finished editing it after the fact which I think is why it's hard to parse. Would you like to clarify why you don't what the library? I've read your posts on the subject but your reasoning has changed slightly from post to post on the subject. Same with not taking four maximums.

With regards to the academy's proving period, I would note that the academy has a proving period every time we make a change so there's again not really a change from doing it all now versus later beside you know doing it incrementally losing us more standing in the long run.
Not sure what you mean about my reasoning changing, it hasn't from my perspective after I dropped Dutch's plan which I outlined why at the time. I'm just trying to make it clearer since that event.

I do not want the library maxed out because while we can be secure here, in the workshop, taking the maximum now means that throughout the entire Far North people start to get the idea that it is okay to write down certain information with the methods of recording information we have right now. I do not want dwarves normalizing that. Even for reagent stuff. The lower levels are fine because it doesn't push that normalization to anything beyond the walls of this Rhuniversity/Rhunkazadi (Rune Fortress).

Runelore is irrelevant in this consideration.

Once we get a means of making something like Holocrons, or even just intelligent DRM that can protect the knowledge it is placed on without the presence of a dwarf guarding the knowledge I'll be fine with expanding it. If a thief picks a knowledge container up and takes it away and then tries to access it, it deletes itself, is the minimum for what I want and something I expect would be a dumb "holocron". That's pretty close to what the Rune of Awakening can do. I do not want to max out the library because of timing and so the counterpoint that we might as well do it now is not actually addressing my core issue. I have a completely different priority order than you where the infosec risk and our record keeping capabilities are higher priority than any standing gains or losses.

If we max out the library right now and maintain 10 Standing with everyone, with less than four maximums, we will have maximum possible attendance from Conservatives and Radicals and achieve three of my four goals: gaining full attendance, minimizing length and scope of controversy, kept Snorri's stress down, and dug a hole in our infosec around reagents. I'm not satisfied with that.

This essentially forces me to accept that since I do want to normalize the writing down of certain information when we have a more secure means, that I'll have to go for expanding the library later. Does this lose us more Standing in total? Oh yeah very likely unless something changes. If we go down to 8 Conservative Standing and 9 Radical Standing after expanding it and suffer an attendance lost, so be it. That price is enough for an assurance of complete infosec, up to and including reagents, and that price isn't as bad because we'll have had a number of centuries of full attendance.

To put this another way: Comparing a scenario of Full Attendance for Entire University Run with lower Infosec, and a scenario of Full Infosec with a Reduction in Attendance for Entire University Run I'll take the second.
 
Again, it's not about our books, it's about the precedent it sets. We can control our security, we can't ensure the security of every runesmith that thinks writing things down might be a good idea is up to snuff.
But it would also be about our books. The option explicitly says that books aren't for Runesmiths, at all. We would show the world that we think that books shouldn't be written or read by Runesmiths when taking that option. We would deny all the students the advantages books gave us right from the beginning of the quest, and all the benefits we are getting from them right now.

We would either have to be a massive hypocrite or dispose of all the books we are using and have written ourselves.

He moves it towards you, gesturing for you to take it. With reverent hands, you take the curious package and examine it more closely. You blink and realize that it is indeed a book. No mundane title adorns its cover, instead, Thungni's Agrurhun mark dominates the surface, leafed in gold and bordered with fine silver decoration. The top and bottom right corner bearing the face of a nondescript dwarf man and woman with diamond and sapphire eyes respectively. Turning it to stare at the spine, you see on the center, carved into the leather with such exacting precision that it looks almost unnatural, is Thungni's name. Then your eyes catch the faintest glimmer of light, the light of Runes, that flares as your fingers brush over the cover before dimming completely.
Thugni knows that books are useful, but we know better and build our workshop on the basis that they are not compatible with our profession? That's the precedent we would be setting.
 
Last edited:
A dwarf we inspired to discuss his work with his peers might one day train an apprentice, who will become careless and be overheard by a chaos dwarf.

Ergo we should ensure that every runesmith lives in solidary confinement under 24/7 guard.

Loose lips sink ships.
a dwarf we trained might suddenly get discovered and kidnapped by a chaos dwarf and get tortured for our rune knowledge

Ergo we should definitely have them solitary and 24/7 guard

living dwarfs sink ships

yeah there is no way to win
 
But it would also be about our books. The option explicitly says that books aren't for Runesmiths, at all. We would show the world that we think that books shouldn't be written or read by Runesmiths when taking that option. We would deny all the students the advantages books gave us right from the beginning of the quest, and all the benefits we are getting from them right now.

We would either have to be a massive hypocrite or dispose of all the books we are using and have written ourselves.


Thugni knows that books are useful, but we know better and build our workshop on the basis that they are not compatible with our profession? That's the precedent we would be setting.
This rebuttal is structured ridiculously. The option doesn't say [Snorri will burn all his books, or feel shame because he's a hypocrite], and even on the face of it this is hyperbolic.

I get it, the library is nice and in theme with what we're trying to do. However, I think it is unwise to break infosec and I don't think our current methods are sufficient if it spreads to the entire region. If it was just the Rhunkazadi, great! No biggie for me.
 
Once we get a means of making something like Holocrons, or even just intelligent DRM that can protect the knowledge it is placed on without the presence of a dwarf guarding the knowledge I'll be fine with expanding it. If a thief picks a knowledge container up and takes it away and then tries to access it, it deletes itself, is the minimum for what I want and something I expect would be a dumb "holocron".
The former is literally impossible. We have lore on that.

The latter can already be done under these rules. Under the "anyone who tries to access this without XXXX conditions."
 
This rebuttal is structured ridiculously. The option doesn't say [Snorri will burn all his books, or feel shame because he's a hypocrite], and even on the face of it this is hyperbolic.

I get it, the library is nice and in theme with what we're trying to do. However, I think it is unwise to break infosec and I don't think our current methods are sufficient if it spreads to the entire region. If it was just the Rhunkazadi, great! No biggie for me.
No, but the option says that Runesmiths and books don't work together. That's why it would make us a hypocrite if we continue to use them. It literally says
Books are for people who aren't Runesmiths!
Not be careful with books. Or don't write down runic knowledge. It says that books shouldn't be used by Runesmiths.
 
Last edited:
The former is literally impossible. We have lore on that.

The latter can already be done under these rules. Under the "anyone who tries to access this without XXXX conditions."
That is the text from the Rune of Warning and I take it to mean it is not possible to make a Rune of Warning that does that and that quote is not a general statement on Runes and Runecraft as a whole. Soul has gone on record to state that the Rune of Warning can only function on visible markers, in line with that quote. I think my point is supported by it being a pretty simple rune, untouched by most of the complexities available in Mind of Things.

As for the capability under these rules how would you do it?

Also, why do you want the library right now, I don't think I ever managed to see that in the rush of the thread?
 
I don't think a library is an inherently bad thing, but it's...just a bit soon, y'know? Even getting Runesmiths to share information related to their craft amongst themselves in anything other then a Master/Apprentice setting is pretty radical at this point in time, let alone recording that information for anyone that can get their hands on the book to read. I know it's daft to argue about what might "go over the line" and all that, but I feel like it's probably the one option out of all of them that strongly goes against current Runesmithing doctrine. An open forum, not a big deal, classes, a bit out there but not an unheard of concept, procurement and business, definitely odd but mostly in a gray area. But something like recording Runesmithing knowledge, even if it isn't actual Runelore, and collecting it all in one place is something that genuinely grates against how Runesmiths normally do things, which is pretty clearly reflected in it's Standing cost. Even the Radicals aren't a fan of it. Maybe further on down the line, or once we've developed a sufficiently excessive way of securing that knowledge once it's recorded, but now just doesn't feel like the right time.
 
[X] Plan Books and Runesmiths Do Not Mix

I'm not voting for this to ease stress, because of fears of runelore being stolen away, or of accidentally setting consequential precedents. Instead, it's for a really simple reason.

...I just like the aesthetics of it. A college/university entirely dedicated to direct practice, temporary apprenticeships, and oral tradition? It's so unique and dwarfy that I love it.
 
Back
Top