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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Hey, so, what's the reason that "Plan Books and Runesmiths Do Not Mix" doesn't have procurement at Max? It has the space.

Narrative reasons. The maximum option for procurement essentially restructures the way that runesmiths in the region go about getting their reagents to be more like a traditional guild structure, and I'm incredibly leery about that. I'd like for the spirit of a runesmith to be preserved in this institution - essentially, allowing them to choose rather than imposing our structures on how they should conduct their business.

And yes, for the sake of Snorri's general stress levels I don't want to ride right up to the 4 Maximum limit, because honestly it's genuinely quite saddening to see him doubt himself.
 
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[X] Plan Books and Runesmiths Do Not Mix

[X] Plan: Maximum 2.83 = 2

Not a fan of most of the winning plans. I'm still of the opinion that allowing Master Runesmiths to teach their runes will be seen as going over the head of the Grand Conclave selection process. But I 100% agree that the library option will eventually turn to writing down runelore, which creates a weakness for the dwarven people as a whole.
 
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Narrative reasons. The maximum option for procurement essentially restructures the way that runesmiths in the region go about getting their reagents to be more like a traditional guild structure, and I'm incredibly leery about that. I'd like for the spirit of a runesmith to be preserved in this institution - essentially, allowing them to choose rather than imposing our structures on how they should conduct their business.
I very much follow Yorri on this argument in the sense that these runesmiths have a choice to engage in all this they can choose to not attend, choose to not engage in tournaments, refuse discounts, and refuse aid in acquiring reagents we aren't forcing anything on anyone the only thing that's happening here is that we're making these options available for people leaving it entirely up to them on if they wish to partake or if they wish to copy what we're doing here themselves.

We aren't doing any of this restructuring or imposing you're talking about.
 
But what you're asking isn't sharing memories.

You're asking for a rune that can judge both the student and the knowledge stored within it/the object it is on.

Why not just simply engrave every book with a rune of locking and make custom keys with the rune of unlocking that can be awarded to students when they they prove themselves worthy?
Because keys could be stolen? I'm not sure what you want by asking this question in this way.

I get that you don't think this exists, but I don't think we're going to agree on this so I'm just going to stop debating this with you, as I feel I've made my point. The library is not a crucial lynchpin of this thing's function in my mind (That would be Classes and Forums), it presents a security risk at the maximum level if others in the region start putting down information before I think we're ready to encourage that kind of thing, and the lesser options would be fine because that security risk basically stops existing. It also takes space away from business, procurement, and forges, which I like more.
 
personally the main thing I'm against with the Books and Runesmiths Do Not Mix plan, Is that it takes the forging part. And If I understand correctly it lets other runesmiths use our forge when we arent using it. And personally I would like it if for now that usage of our forge stays between use and our heir. Especially with how understanding she's been with the other stuff. (However re-reading it, it seems like we have a bunch of extra forges already that we teach at and we're going to be lending those out, So I'm not against it if thats the case. As long as we dont lend out our personal forge.)
 
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[X] Plan: Maximum 2.83 = 2
[X] Plan Books and Runelore Do Not Mix
[X] Plan: Not Rocking The Boat
[X] Plan Snorri's consternation, Reckoner Edition
 
Again there is a specific existing solution for this.

The Runes of Opening and Locking. The latter is used on Ancestoral Tombs and locks the item it is inscribed on so securely that it can only be opened with an attuned rune of opening. Put a Gromril lock on every book and only lend/give (temporary) keys to Dwarfs you know are worthy.

We're literally the ones establishing a tradition here.

What is being demanded of the library is that it is more secure than ancestral clan tombs.
 
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[X] Xepheria

My only issue is the lack of Most Numbers, but that's just a reactive thing. If we can get some sort of Holocron thing set up, a Library can be revisted at a later date.
 
personally the main thing I'm against with the Books and Runesmiths Do Not Mix plan, Is that it takes the forging part. And If I understand correctly it lets other runesmiths use our forge when we arent using it. And personally I would like it if for now that usage of our forge stays between use and our heir. Especially with how understanding she's been with the other stuff.
We have halls full of forges that we used to teach master runesmiths they'll go use those not Snorri's personal forge which is in his workshop which no random person is allowed in to my knowledge.
 
I mean I hate the tag line for the library choice in plan books, because it's clearly a bold faced lie given Akazit and what Snorri is going to do due to getting his hands on books adjacent to runecraft to get him started on Alchemical runecraft...
 
Yeah @Kirron 999 it's not worth the time to look for copies anymore. There are already 3 plans near the top and every other plan is significantly behind. Still, thanks for your help!
 
Here is my design for my dream project under these constraints.

Explanations written in in bold for better readability.

[ ] Food:
- [ ] Extravagant: +3 actions. +5 Size. +3 Learning. +2 Communication. You'll provide a wide variety of fine ales and food, though that will necessitate the hiring of a handful of Chefs as well. Multiple Halls are dedicated to serving as dining spaces, with separate eating areas for smaller gatherings as well.

[ ] Lodgings:
- [ ] Extravagant: +4 actions, +7 Size, +2 Learning and Communication. Rooms big enough to be considered rather well off, with enough of them to comfortably fit the entire population of the town and then some. Such a scale would doubtlessly need grand galleries with enough levels that only the mightiest Clan Halls are larger in scope. A Karak in miniature. Plenty of room and plenty of rooms for people to simply loiter around and chat.

[ ] Shopping:
- [ ] Extravagant: +3 actions, +6 Size, +3 Learning and Communication, Requires Exceptional Lodgings at minimum. Using Jorri's numerous contacts and speaking with the inhabitants in Khazid Okraz you could probably set up a reagent market to provide a wide array of more basic reagents within the Workshop. It would be of no benefit to you, but it would mean those learning under you need not go far to gather the reagents they need. Which means they spend more time learning and less time futzing about.

[ ] Defenses:
- [ ] Marvellous: +5 actions, +12 Size, Requires Extravagant Lodgings at minimum, Unlocks Capstone Project write-in vote, +1 Conservative and Radical Runesmith Standing. Insane? Maybe to some. Secure? Beyond question. Almost enough to make you think more can't be done, almost. As before, but even Grander. Great Artillery pieces capable of shooting wyverns from the sky, of launching boulders that can paste entire bands of enemy warriors. Runic defenses second only to the Karak itself. You'll create something so impressive that by virtue of its strength Gloin will most likely make it the lynchpin of the Karak's outer defenses. If staffing the lesser option was difficult this would be near impossible with just your Hearth Guard, you will most certainly need extra bodies to man this structure to full readiness, around say a middling-sized Clan's worth of warriors. Then to top it all off, you plan to create a defensive work so mighty, so grand, that only a southern hold could hope to match it! You would not beggar yourself, but you would feel the cost of such an undertaking.

[ ] Aesthetics:
- [ ] Extravagant: +5 actions, ???, +1 Conservative and Radical Runesmith Standing. This. Now this is something you want to be known across more than just the Far North. A true Wonder of the realms, and an edifice of such fine Craftsmanship that even the most hidebound Conservative to the most revolutionary Radical can appreciate the efforts put into the structure, if not the purpose. Kraka Drakk will certainly appreciate the association.



I maximised everything because I want to build this right. This is our one shot at this and im taking it.


[ ] Classes: The Entire purpose of this is to make a place to teach these youngsters. What, or perhaps who else would you allow?

- [ ] Let your Fellow Runelords disseminate Runes or related knowledge from here if they wish: 1/2 MAXIMUM, +3 Learning and Communication. Your fellow Runelords should be given the same offer, after all, they were chosen by the House and for all your quarrelling none of you would let an unworthy Dwarf join the ranks of the Runelords.

I simply cant justify anything more than Runelords. Both from a MAX standpoint and because I don't want to deal with fools handing out random nonsense, they can do that where its not on our head.

[ ] Forum: Having Runesmiths around the compound and each other will get them talking. It's simply a matter of what you want to do about it.
- [ ] Make it part of the plan: 1 MAXIMUM +5 Learning, +15 Communication, Requires Exceptional Lodgings at minimum, +2 Radical Runesmith Standing, +1 Conservative Runesmith Standing. Noticeable increase to the creation of new Runes in Kraka Drakk, and half that for the Region. WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING GREATER DIPLOMACY AND CLOSER TIES BETWEEN RUNESMITHS IN THE REGION. This shall be a place for Runesmiths and their ideas to be forged and purified by the rigours of honest academic and sometimes physical debate. Halls from which they make spectacle and debate with each other should they wish. Better than them ruining the bars in town at the very least.

An absolute must have. This is what the Runesmiths lack the most. The political caricature of an organization we just entered was supposed to do that. Let's do it right this time.

[ ] Business: Should the Workshop allow for Runesmiths to pursue the mundane realities of business, finding buyers, suppliers and patrons, within its walls?
- [ ] Allow it: 1/3 MAXIMUM, Roughly half again increased proliferation of Runecraft in Kraka Drakk. If a Runesmith wishes to set up an appointment here you will not deny them.

This is simply none of our business, pun intended. They will do as they will, as is their right and duty as Runesmiths.

[ ] Forging: You are RuneSMITHS after all, and a Smith is nothing without a forge.
- [ ] Not an ember: You have a Workshop, go use it you wazzok!

Stay in your forge spaces. Not because I think thats better, I just need the MAX.

[ ] Procurement:.
- [ ] and Hiring: 1 MAXIMUM, +3 Learning +5 Communication, Requires Extravagant Shopping, -1 Conservative Runesmith Standing. Roughly triples the quality of Runecraft across Kraka Drakk and double for the Region. WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING MORE ROBUST SUPPORT FOR JOURNEYMEN AND TALENTED RUNESMITHS IN THE REGION. Tournaments, discounts for students and continuous victors, and a system by which Runesmiths may not only hire bands of adventurous Dwarfs to help them gather reagents or collect said reagents for them, but also let regular Dwarfs offer reagents they may be in possession of for sale.

I have not forgotten what happened to our first five students, even if we may never know the details. NEVER AGAIN, for neither us nor any other!
[ ] Library:
- [ ] None at all: Books? Books are for people who aren't Runesmiths!


It is good to write these things down. Sadly, Dwarves, including Snorri, disagree.


This should take us up to slightly under 3 Maximum, which means we still only pay the price of two Maximum.

I'll combine it into an actual plan when voting opens, feel free to point out any miscalculations I may have made.

Plans

This took far longer than I anticipated. @soulcake can you temporarily threadmark this?
Plans are ordered chronologically. Blank spaces were plans, which turned out to be copies.
All current plans(will edit, if more appear):
Hey I think you forgot mine? Speaking off:

[X] Plan: Never Again
-[X] Food:
--[X] Extravagant: +3 actions. +5 Size. +3 Learning. +2 Communication. You'll provide a wide variety of fine ales and food, though that will necessitate the hiring of a handful of Chefs as well. Multiple Halls are dedicated to serving as dining spaces, with separate eating areas for smaller gatherings as well.

-[X] Lodgings:
--[X] Extravagant: +4 actions, +7 Size, +2 Learning and Communication. Rooms big enough to be considered rather well off, with enough of them to comfortably fit the entire population of the town and then some. Such a scale would doubtlessly need grand galleries with enough levels that only the mightiest Clan Halls are larger in scope. A Karak in miniature. Plenty of room and plenty of rooms for people to simply loiter around and chat.

-[X] Shopping:
-- [X] Extravagant: +3 actions, +6 Size, +3 Learning and Communication, Requires Exceptional Lodgings at minimum. Using Jorri's numerous contacts and speaking with the inhabitants in Khazid Okraz you could probably set up a reagent market to provide a wide array of more basic reagents within the Workshop. It would be of no benefit to you, but it would mean those learning under you need not go far to gather the reagents they need. Which means they spend more time learning and less time futzing about.

-[X] Defenses:
-- [X] Marvellous: +5 actions, +12 Size, Requires Extravagant Lodgings at minimum, Unlocks Capstone Project write-in vote, +1 Conservative and Radical Runesmith Standing. Insane? Maybe to some. Secure? Beyond question. Almost enough to make you think more can't be done, almost. As before, but even Grander. Great Artillery pieces capable of shooting wyverns from the sky, of launching boulders that can paste entire bands of enemy warriors. Runic defenses second only to the Karak itself. You'll create something so impressive that by virtue of its strength Gloin will most likely make it the lynchpin of the Karak's outer defenses. If staffing the lesser option was difficult this would be near impossible with just your Hearth Guard, you will most certainly need extra bodies to man this structure to full readiness, around say a middling-sized Clan's worth of warriors. Then to top it all off, you plan to create a defensive work so mighty, so grand, that only a southern hold could hope to match it! You would not beggar yourself, but you would feel the cost of such an undertaking.

-[X] Aesthetics:
--[X] Extravagant: +5 actions, ???, +1 Conservative and Radical Runesmith Standing. This. Now this is something you want to be known across more than just the Far North. A true Wonder of the realms, and an edifice of such fine Craftsmanship that even the most hidebound Conservative to the most revolutionary Radical can appreciate the efforts put into the structure, if not the purpose. Kraka Drakk will certainly appreciate the association.



I maximised everything because I want to build this right. This is our one shot at this and im taking it.


-[X] Classes: The Entire purpose of this is to make a place to teach these youngsters. What, or perhaps who else would you allow?

--[X] Let your Fellow Runelords disseminate Runes or related knowledge from here if they wish: 1/2 MAXIMUM, +3 Learning and Communication. Your fellow Runelords should be given the same offer, after all, they were chosen by the House and for all your quarrelling none of you would let an unworthy Dwarf join the ranks of the Runelords.

I simply cant justify anything more than Runelords. Both from a MAX standpoint and because I don't want to deal with fools handing out random nonsense, they can do that where its not on our head.

-[X] Forum: Having Runesmiths around the compound and each other will get them talking. It's simply a matter of what you want to do about it.
--[X] Make it part of the plan: 1 MAXIMUM +5 Learning, +15 Communication, Requires Exceptional Lodgings at minimum, +2 Radical Runesmith Standing, +1 Conservative Runesmith Standing. Noticeable increase to the creation of new Runes in Kraka Drakk, and half that for the Region. WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING GREATER DIPLOMACY AND CLOSER TIES BETWEEN RUNESMITHS IN THE REGION. This shall be a place for Runesmiths and their ideas to be forged and purified by the rigours of honest academic and sometimes physical debate. Halls from which they make spectacle and debate with each other should they wish. Better than them ruining the bars in town at the very least.

An absolute must have. This is what the Runesmiths lack the most. The political caricature of an organization we just entered was supposed to do that. Let's do it right this time.

-[X] Business: Should the Workshop allow for Runesmiths to pursue the mundane realities of business, finding buyers, suppliers and patrons, within its walls?
--[X] Allow it: 1/3 MAXIMUM, Roughly half again increased proliferation of Runecraft in Kraka Drakk. If a Runesmith wishes to set up an appointment here you will not deny them.

This is simply none of our business, pun intended. They will do as they will, as is their right and duty as Runesmiths.

-[X] Forging: You are RuneSMITHS after all, and a Smith is nothing without a forge.
-- [X] Not an ember: You have a Workshop, go use it you wazzok!

Stay in your forge spaces. Not because I think thats better, I just need the MAX.

-[X] Procurement:.
-- [X] and Hiring: 1 MAXIMUM, +3 Learning +5 Communication, Requires Extravagant Shopping, -1 Conservative Runesmith Standing. Roughly triples the quality of Runecraft across Kraka Drakk and double for the Region. WILL BEGIN NORMALIZING MORE ROBUST SUPPORT FOR JOURNEYMEN AND TALENTED RUNESMITHS IN THE REGION. Tournaments, discounts for students and continuous victors, and a system by which Runesmiths may not only hire bands of adventurous Dwarfs to help them gather reagents or collect said reagents for them, but also let regular Dwarfs offer reagents they may be in possession of for sale.

I have not forgotten what happened to our first five students, even if we may never know the details. NEVER AGAIN, for neither us nor any other!
-[X] Library:
--[X] None at all: Books? Books are for people who aren't Runesmiths!

It is good to write these things down. Sadly, Dwarves, including Snorri, disagree.


This should take us up to slightly under 3 Maximum, which means we still only pay the price of 2 Maximum.
 
Because keys could be stolen? I'm not sure what you want by asking this question in this way.

I get that you don't think this exists, but I don't think we're going to agree on this so I'm just going to stop debating this with you, as I feel I've made my point. The library is not a crucial lynchpin of this thing's function in my mind (That would be Classes and Forums), it presents a security risk at the maximum level if others in the region start putting down information before I think we're ready to encourage that kind of thing, and the lesser options would be fine because that security risk basically stops existing. It also takes space away from business, procurement, and forges, which I like more.
Temporary runework is a thing...

You can literally make keys that only function for a few hours or work only once, after which the book locks itself up again.
 
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A big reason in my mind not to go into all out in my mind, is to not go down below 10 on any political faction, when frankly I want to minimize controversy. Not get rid of it, we will have controversy, and that is fine. Going down below 10 briefly and then up to 10 again makes such controversy shorter and quieter, and ending at 10 with everyone increases attendance of the Rhuniversity. Landing at 8 and 10 means we have a much longer period of controversy, and deeper consequences at the next Rhunkalbrogg in general and when we meet both the Brotherhood and Burudin.

And I want conservative students, as many as we can get. Conservative lineages should have access to our runes, which in my mind means we should end at Standing 10 with them. We're always going to get less Conservatives than Radicals, but frankly as this place has roots in a statement of "If you're a master, you can learn from me", I don't want to have Conservatives even less interested in it than they'd be if we were at Standing 10.

Further Procurement and Library as maximums are much less interesting to me than Classes and Forum (with Forge a distant third). I don't think normalising the writing down of certain knowledge is a good idea, nor is it something I really want to read about. Further with Procurement, that's mostly a personal taste thing, as I like the idea of discounts and tournaments more than hiring in terms of what I think is more entertaining to read.
You seem to be analyzing my plan rather than four maximum plans as a whole which was what I was talking about as it's entirely possible to have a 10/10 four maximums plan for example, and in addition to that, I'd note that from what I can tell from Soulcake's WoG on the subject the controversy will only last for any plan until the academy can prove itself which is the same amount of time about a few decades regardless of what we choose here.

With regards to decreased attendance, I'd note that you either pay this cost now or later as in three hundred or five hundred years whenever we get the choice to expand our services we're not going to have any options that let us on the same turn boost conservative standing so we'll take the hit to our standing that comes from say boosting business which would knock us down from ten to nine standing then just as we will if Bird is the Word for example wins so you're not going to see overall more long term attendance by staying below four maximums unless you never expand again.

Lastly, for procurement and library, I'd note that again this seems to very much be an analysis of my plan rather than four maximum plans as a whole but if this is your problem I'd differ you to Bird is the Word as a four maximum plan as it seems to do equally as much for what you want in the form of classes as well as forums and forges as the plan you're presently voting for.
 
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personally the main thing I'm against with the Books and Runesmiths Do Not Mix plan, Is that it takes the forging part. And If I understand correctly it lets other runesmiths use our forge when we arent using it. And personally I would like it if for now that usage of our forge stays between use and our heir. Especially with how understanding she's been with the other stuff. (However re-reading it, it seems like we have a bunch of extra forges already that we teach at and we're going to be lending those out, So I'm not against it if thats the case. As long as we dont lend out our personal forge.)
Yeah if I remember correctly Snorri built a bunch of forges and anvils and stuff when he started accepting Journeymen and expanded that with Masters in the background. This way he could keep his Sanctum Sanctorum if you will separate from all the bumbling idiocy outside.
 
sorry there are so many plans, can someone tell me which ones I can approval vote for that have 3.88 max and forging 1/3, business 1/2, procurement 1/2, and 1 in two out of three of forum, classes and library and 1/2 in the remaining one?
(and ofc max all for build options)

I'm okay with forging 1/2, business 1/3 too at a pinch but prefer the former.
 
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