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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)

[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [x] Middling: Teach those you consider reasonably sure to use and spread the rune as you do. 18 Of the two dozen will be taught.
 
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[x] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [x] Lax: Any Runesmith who has reached the rank of Master is worthy. All of the two dozen will be taught.
[x] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)
 
[x] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [x] Lax: Any Runesmith who has reached the rank of Master is worthy. All of the two dozen will be taught.
[x] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)
 
[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)

[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Lax: Any Runesmith who has reached the rank of Master is worthy. All of the two dozen will be taught.
 
Sir LagsAlot said:
Your argument doesn't have any textual support to it you're making a ton of assumptions about what caused his madness when literally the only textual support for any argument about his madness states that it's theorized by some that it was a result of the forging of the runefangs.

My argument at least has that textual evidence for where the Dwarfs theorize his madness to have come from even if it's disputed by some which I may note doesn't mean it's wrong either the shape of the Earth is disputed after all.

So we can either go with your interpretation which has no textual support or we can go with mine which has some.
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If your argument is that breaking the rule of pride caused Alric's madness and we are using the text you quoted, then you have extremely, extremely flimsy textual support. The text doesn't mention the rule of pride at all and only one line deals with the runefangs forging. The rest of the text is spent talking about his quest around the rune of ages. If this story is about Alric's madness than the fact that it's also a story about the rune of ages should clue us into what the writer believed caused the madness; and it's not the one line at the beginning of the story.

Fundamentally, if you believe that breaking the rule of pride caused Alric's madness you are going to have to show more than just one line in a story that isn't about the rule of pride, or the runefangs before I give any credence to your theory.

A question for anyone. Is there a list of the runes on the Runefangs? Because I am googling and looking and nothing is showing up on what runes the runefangs actually use. It's always: They were made by Alric the Mad; here's his story.
 
Neshuakadal said:
If your argument is that breaking the rule of pride caused Alric's madness and we are using the text you quoted, then you have extremely, extremely flimsy textual support. The text doesn't mention the rule of pride at all and only one line deals with the runefangs forging. The rest of the text is spent talking about his quest around the rune of ages. If this story is about Alric's madness than the fact that it's also a story about the rune of ages should clue us into what the writer believed caused the madness; and it's not the one line at the beginning of the story.

Fundamentally, if you believe that breaking the rule of pride caused Alric's madness you are going to have to show more than just one line in a story that isn't about the rule of pride, or the runefangs before I give any credence to your theory.

A question for anyone. Is there a list of the runes on the Runefangs? Because I am googling and looking and nothing is showing up on what runes the runefangs actually use. It's always: They were made by Alric the Mad; here's his story.
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They have the master rune of Alaric the mad, which is what gives the sharpness as best as I'm aware.
 
Neshuakadal said:
Ok. But is there an actual list, or does everyone just know that one rune on it?
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I don't think there's a specific list no... but people have created a list based on the effects of a runefang and the runes available to the dwarfs. I know I've seen the breakdown before somewhere, but I'm not sure where. Specifically, I'm talking based on the TT effects of the runefangs and those runes available to the dwarfs in the army books.
 
[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)

[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Lax: Any Runesmith who has reached the rank of Master is worthy. All of the two dozen will be taught.

Missed most of the discussion, but surprised that people are going with Lax on the forged limb. We've been worried about the consequences of doing this for quite a while, so shouldn't we be at least a little bit cautious about spreading this around? Or do people just think that we'll be able to adequately defend ourselves should we be called to account? Or is it the reverse of that, in that being stringent about it means that we are dictating what other runesmiths can do with the rune - which steps on a lot of toes regarding guild rules - and that letting any master learn might actually result in less grumbling?

Edit: after hearing the reasoning involved, the explanation for Lax seems to be decent, and I've switched to that.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
[x] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)
[x] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [x] Middling: Teach those you consider reasonably sure to use and spread the rune as you do. 18 Of the two dozen will be taught.

Lax feels like a bridge too far. These are the ones Snorri thinks will share the rune anyway, and there's something to be said for not expending social capital that can be better used later on. If we choose Lax now, it weakens any similar precedents we try to set later, as other Runesmiths think to themselves about how Snorri always chooses the least traditional option anyway.
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All the options expend social capital. Snorri at this point is simply to much of a big fish in a medium-sized lake to escape it.

Lax is Snorri being apolitical and his usual, "What is best for the Dawi?" In this case, it would be him deciding the rune should be spread among runemasters whether or not he would actually like or agree with their political positions. This means it is as likely to be getting taught to both the hardcore conservative traditionalists as it is to moderates or radicals ...well within reason. Snorri is not going to share it with anyone who believes would abuse it, and these are all experienced runemasters. Per the GM, none of the dwarfs here are idiots.

Middling meanwhile is Snorri deciding he only wants to teach it to runelords who follow his general philosophy and would use the rune like he does. It will get spread out, but slowly from the masters Snorri teaches to their future apprentices barring Snorri being wrong about one of the runemasters he teaches. It also dings Snorri's reputation as a sorta neutral figure by publicly laying the groundwork for a proto-faction among runemasters. I mean Snorri is already building one simply due to how dawi society works, but this would make it official and likely lead to Snorri having to get more involved in politics.

Then you have Stringent. This is Snorri completely tossing his reputation for neutrality into the bonefire in exchange for making absolutely sure that all the runemasters will 100% absolutely follow his own beliefs for how the rune should be used or taught. On the downside, this means all those dwarfs who worried about all the influence Snorri holds and how he might be influencing northern runemasters are going to be freaking out. It also is a pretty big statement in itself. One that would make it a lot harder to interact with certain factions among the runelords.

adamashield said:
[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)
[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Stringent: Teach those most alike with your own methodology in how to use and spread this Rune. 8 Of the two dozen will be taught.

Mostly to avoid annoying other runelord/masters until a precedent from the really old ones can be done in turn 41. Plus these guys live long lives and can train more people.
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Stringent is the one to most likely annoy other runelords as it is the most overtly political of the options. I mean none of the options are going to make every runelord happy but that is the option that is most likely to leave the various factions among the runemasters left out in the cold unhappy.
 
[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)
[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Middling: Teach those you consider reasonably sure to use and spread the rune as you do. 18 Of the two dozen will be taught.
 
[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)

[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Lax: Any Runesmith who has reached the rank of Master is worthy. All of the two dozen will be taught.
 
Neshuakadal said:
If your argument is that breaking the rule of pride caused Alric's madness and we are using the text you quoted, then you have extremely, extremely flimsy textual support. The text doesn't mention the rule of pride at all and only one line deals with the runefangs forging. The rest of the text is spent talking about his quest around the rune of ages. If this story is about Alric's madness than the fact that it's also a story about the rune of ages should clue us into what the writer believed caused the madness; and it's not the one line at the beginning of the story.

Fundamentally, if you believe that breaking the rule of pride caused Alric's madness you are going to have to show more than just one line in a story that isn't about the rule of pride, or the runefangs before I give any credence to your theory.

A question for anyone. Is there a list of the runes on the Runefangs? Because I am googling and looking and nothing is showing up on what runes the runefangs actually use. It's always: They were made by Alric the Mad; here's his story.
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The text does not need to mention the rule of pride you can easily arrive at that point through the process of elimination for all the other stress factors which I've done. We also know it was a violation of the rule of pride as Alric put his master rune on all the runefangs and then the only Dwarf theory and the only time the reason for his madness is directly addressed by the author is to state that it's theorized this forging is what caused his madness as it caused him to become paranoid and obsessive and that obsessiveness locked onto the rune of ages that's about a direct link as they come without the author outright telling you.

Like if the author goes "Here's why people think this character became paranoid and obsessive by the way his obsessiveness over this thing made them think he was mad" that's pretty much you being lead by the nose to think that said character's madness was caused by the thing that caused him to become paranoid and obsessive because there's zero prior mention of it.
 
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[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)

[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Middling: Teach those you consider reasonably sure to use and spread the rune as you do. 18 Of the two dozen will be taught.
 
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soulcake said:
"In the nine years you've been working, we've received no less than two dozen Master Runesmiths who've come seeking to learn from you.
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Snorri started work in 275, you edited away the declaration of 284 A.P., so I am guessing that should be changed to eight years?

I am not sure at all. >_>

At the same time, if it is 283 or 284, the ages on the character sheet are wrong because they're calculated from 282 to 281 A.P.

soulcake said:
━<><><>< 275 A.P. ><><><>━​
Your time in Grom is shorter than expected, mostly because you suddenly found the energy and drive needed to hurry along and finish carving Runes on all of the remaining statues.

The angry fire that ignited that day still refuses to go out though, and you find yourself with energy to burn and an intense desire to further along the progress of Dwarfkind in any way that you can. So with a grumble and growl, you inform your retainers that you'll be taking no visitors until you leave the confines of your workshop once more.

There will be no relaxing until you've come up with a process to make Gromril chain accessible to any Master Runesmith worth his beard.
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Hydroplatypus said:
[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)

[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Stringent: Teach those most alike with your own methodology in how to use and spread this Rune. 8 Of the two dozen will be taught.

Missed most of the discussion, but surprised that people are going with Lax on the forged limb. We've been worried about the consequences of doing this for quite a while, so shouldn't we be at least a little bit cautious about spreading this around? Or do people just think that we'll be able to adequately defend ourselves should we be called to account? Or is it the reverse of that, in that being stringent about it means that we are dictating what other runesmiths can do with the rune - which steps on a lot of toes regarding guild rules - and that letting any master learn might actually result in less grumbling?
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I shall refer you to my previous post.
UlseDovThur said:
I think Stringent is a bad idea as from my understanding the thing that would make this bad for us is if we look like we're forcing those who learn the Rune to use it as we tell them to, like using it liberally is a requirement of learning it. If we only pick those who will use it as we do that doesn't really look great.

Lax however is simply us teaching those who would like to learn how to make the Rune no different then any other Rune. If someone makes a stink about it what are they going to say? They came to us to learn how to make the Rune and we didn't tell them how to use it.
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taovkool said:
Our boi's a Master Runelord! Lax trainings are for beardlings!
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The distinction is not in skill but rather in politics - how they will use the rune is the distinction between lax, middling, and stringent. So him being a Master Runelord doesn't come into play on that front - on the skill front he believes all master runesmiths are sufficiently skilled.
Hydroplatypus said:
Or is it the reverse of that, in that being stringent about it means that we are dictating what other runesmiths can do with the rune - which steps on a lot of toes regarding guild rules - and that letting any master learn might actually result in less grumbling?
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Exactly that. If we restrict it then we're playing politics by deciding who to give it to, and only giving it to people "like us". To conservatives that could easily look like an attempt to form our own political block - at the same time we deny their attempts to learn the rune.

Obviously the safest method of all is to not teach it at all - that isn't playing favorites and doesn't risk rocking the boat.

The second safest, paradoxically, seems to be to teach all comers - that way we aren't making a political statement or attempting to force runesmiths to be like us to get the rune, which is a bad idea.

There is a possibility that the second could somehow lead to a scism in the future, but the chain of events of fairly unlikely, since it would require the church of Valaya antagonizing a conservative runesmith that knows it to try to make more than they are willing to, rather than just going to another runesmith that can.

Now the thing is these runesmiths came to us - if we make it prescedent that if you ask you will be taught this particular rune it will annoy the more curmudgeonly conservatives that don't like rune trading or teaching outside direct master-apprentice relationships, but those are relatively uncommon.

On the other hand no going around teaching it - or telling anyone to do so. Or letting any of our former apprentices do so. Make it the rule that they have to come to you. That way you aren't pushing anything on them.
 
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[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)

[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Stringent: Teach those most alike with your own methodology in how to use and spread this Rune. 8 Of the two dozen will be taught.
 
[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)
Gain: Greater impact when you do reveal it, what with the work. ??? Deed and Title, Chainwright.

[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Lax: Any Runesmith who has reached the rank of Master is worthy. All of the two dozen will be taught.

I'm looking at this vote at how much restraint Snorri gives towards how the Rune spreads. There's zero doubt that he'll teach it, just as there's no doubt that he knows it'll spread beyond him. It's just a matter of how he should do this as a precedent.

I don't think there's really a wrong option here. Just ones that may have consequences that Snorri has accounted and prepared for and is prepared to endure the burden of. He may not like it, but he will do it since he believes this is the right thing to do.

Frankly, I can see Snorri snorting at the thought of anyone not thinking that he considered the worry of causing a schism between cults and that he wouldn't warn those he teaches the Rune about it maybe happening if certain actions aren't taken to prevent it.

Either way, I think it's perfectly in character for Snorri to not care who gets the Rune as long as they are competent since they came to him to learn it to aid other dwarves. It would be a completely different thing if it was for another Rune and for another purpose, but Snorri isn't the type to deny those who need his help.
 
soulcake said:
Turn 38 will start in 283.

I raise ages by 10 because its easier and that's usually how long Turns are give or take a year, but it should all round out by whatever point the quest ends.
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If the timeline ever gets too too tangled up, you can always just throw another Chaos incursion at us to blame the inaccuracy on warp fuckery :V

EDIT: Eh, may as well vote.
[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)
Gain: Greater impact when you do reveal it, what with the work. ??? Deed and Title, Chainwright.

[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Lax: Any Runesmith who has reached the rank of Master is worthy. All of the two dozen will be taught.
 
[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)

[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Stringent: Teach those most alike with your own methodology in how to use and spread this Rune. 8 Of the two dozen will be taught.
 
Not sure if anyone pointed this out yet since everyone's still talking about the vote, but:
soulcake said:
I imagine you expected Grimnir?" she replies.

"Hmph, not especially. Your vengeance is sated, and Dum's struggle wasn't particularly suited to Grimnir's purview."

"Curious.
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Hmm. Is this another hint of the whole "different perspectives of Grimnir" thing?
 
soulcake said:
Disappointed but not discouraged, Gunnars simply nods and walks away, taking solace in the knowledge that his entreaty was heard, and should the old Runesmith find him worthy, perhaps even teach him.

For his family's sake, he would do all he could in the effort to learn the Rune that let the Princess walk under her own power and use two hands.
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Huh, I wonder what caused that last line. Is it a sort of shame at the Royal Clan having to go somewhere else to get the Princess Orra healed, instead of Karak Ungor's own Runesmithing Clan, Starhammer? I could see a few of them being injured by the dragon and in the hunt that followed. Maybe something else?
 
Sir LagsAlot said:
The text does not need to mention the rule of pride you can easily arrive at that point through the process of elimination for all the other stress factors which I've done. We also know it was a violation of the rule of pride as Alric put his master rune on all the runefangs and then the only Dwarf theory and the only time the reason for his madness is directly addressed by the author is to state that it's theorized this forging is what caused his madness as it caused him to become paranoid and obsessive and that obsessiveness locked onto the rune of ages that's about a direct link as they come without the author outright telling you.

Like if the author goes "Here's why people think this character became paranoid and obsessive by the way his obsessiveness over this thing made them think he was mad" that's pretty much you being lead by the nose to think that said character's madness was caused by the thing that caused him to become paranoid and obsessive because there's zero prior mention of it.
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Again, I disagree with all of this textual argument. It is one line in a story not about the rule of pride. The author is just acknowledging a counter theory to his story, which is about the rune of ages and its quest.

Also which rule of pride are you using? This is what I dug up:

Rule of Pride - No more than one item may carry the same combination of runes.
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This is what Soulcake has said:

soulcake said:
If it involves Master Runes then a rough guideline is 3-4 copies of the same Master Rune or Combo with a Master Rune within 10 turns is fine.
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So an argument could be made that if each runefang had a different combo, or there were 3-4 different combos repeated, then the rule of pride wasn't broken. All I have been able to dig up is the master rune of Alric is on the runefangs, but nobody seems to know what the other runes are. To me this brings into question the very basis of your argument, the rule of pride being broken. What are you using to prove that the rule of pride was broken. It might have been broken, but can you prove it?
 
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