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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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I would strongly suggest trying to get Itachi on board our "make the fuckers trade with and interact with each other via summon path nonsense" plan. It's one that has historically worked IRL -- minus logistics-killing ninja magic -- in preventing military conflict.
 
Cariyaga said:
I would strongly suggest trying to get Itachi on board our "make the fuckers trade with and interact with each other via summon path nonsense" plan. It's one that has historically worked IRL -- minus logistics-killing ninja magic -- in preventing military conflict.
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My plan includes trade network
 
faflec said:
Can you explain this part, I'm having trouble understanding it.
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The first part plays on Itachi self-loathing, of being incapable of creating something: He alone cannot, and that is fine. Hazou alone too cannot do so. So he shouldn't focus on the negative(Hazou being a possible danger to the world) but the positive, what people add to World Peace.
The second is just a callback: Itachi considering himself not part of the "selfish people", so i wanted to point out that both of them are part of the "people", therefore their actions here represent humanity, Itachi killing Hazou it's exactly what he hates about the masses.

faflec said:
I'm going to disagree with this, don't think we should be poking at those things. Hidan's an S-rank nightmare, I don't think he'll lose to a bunch of plants.
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Thinking about it, it seems ill-advised, on the other hand, the part about leaving the details of our victory vague seems pretty good so....

Lord Marshal said:
[X] Action Plan: Akatsuki Conversion Plan #1: Hidan And Itachi
Word Count:359

  • Unless Hazo's sealing expertise tells him the sealing failures are an imminent danger to the islands, get back to the Shrine in a manner that won't offend Hidan ASAP.
    • Don't lie, but if possible don't go out of your way to explain that you had no input on your victory
  • Meet up with Itachi:
    • He called people stupid, selfish, and ignorant. He's not wrong, but people aren't inherently this way, or we (our two groups) wouldn't be here. This is a self-sustaining system created by vengeance and cutthroat pragmatism.
    • Between striking at any possible threat, attacking everyone first...and reaching to the others to find a solution, we know what this world always does, and this is why it's impossible to break this circle.
    • Hazou believe this is the biggest obstacle to surpass, and for this to happen, it must first happen between those that seek to change the world.
    • Itachi said they don't know how to rule, and neither does Hazou; he's not so arrogant to think he can do everything alone. That's normal, because we are just individuals. Working together is what makes the difference.
    • Considering our histories, we shouldn't be capable of working together...and this is why we must. If we can surpass this system, we can find the way to break it everywhere.
  • The greatest thing you're offering is the chance to listen and talk:
    • If our plans are wrong or inefficient, we can share and improve on them.
    • Here and now, let's influence each other without violence.
  • You are more than willing to explain your plans, but this is their core motivation, untempered by pragmatism:
    • We need to help free people from this system of hate until peace is the norm for them, and they protect peace just like they now fuel war.
  • How?
    • Target vectors of conflict (Hunger, ignorance, lack of territory, vengeance, etc.).
    • Grow, for there many people that believe in peace that just don't realize it.
    • Stop other conflicts from happening, for they give fuel for hatred.
    • Protect the ones that move towards peace.
    • Much, much more, for this isn't something you alone can resolve and this why you're here.

We're short on time, so here's a plan, a little too long, but better than nothing. Still need to word optimize it, but at least it's here.

EDIT:Thanks to @faflec for the great work in improving this plan
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Here the revised plan.

@Noumero, after thinking about it and reading other opinions, i decided to leave the "Be vague about your victory", but left out the part about asking Hidan to nuke the plant, on the grounds that it's Hidan and has a gigantic and very deadly scythe and the less we interact with the sealing failure the better.
 
Lord Marshal said:
@Noumero, after thinking about it and reading other opinions, i decided to leave the "Be vague about your victory", but left out the part about asking Hidan to nuke the plant, on the grounds that it's Hidan and has a gigantic and very deadly scythe and the less we interact with the sealing failure the better.
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I'm a bit confused what the yellowed part (the "don't lie" part) is for: the general plan seems to be to GTFO unless the seal failures are gonna immediately kill everything, but the yellowed part seems to imply we're...talking to Hidan?

Maybe it would be better if that part were either removed or "If we have to interact with Hidan,—" added to the front.
 
Orisha91 said:
I too think we should leave just as Hazo intended to do initially.

We cannot let it seem like this was a fluke. And I don't want to try our deception or rapport out against this guy.
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faflec said:
I'm a bit confused what the yellowed part (the "don't lie" part) is for: the general plan seems to be to GTFO unless the seal failures are gonna immediately kill everything, but the yellowed part seems to imply we're...talking to Hidan?

Maybe it would be better if that part were either removed or "If we have to interact with Hidan,—" added to the front.
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My fault, i just read those post. Yeah,i'm going to change it to make it more "GTFO" ASAP

Cariyaga said:
I would strongly suggest trying to get Itachi on board our "make the fuckers trade with and interact with each other via summon path nonsense" plan. It's one that has historically worked IRL -- minus logistics-killing ninja magic -- in preventing military conflict.
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It's something i thought about adding, much like "Ask Hidan about his faith", but in my opinion that must wait until we know Itachi won't kill us. Once that part is done, we can debate the technicalities all day long, i doubt Itachi would mind listening to ideas on how to change the world.
 
Lord Marshal said:
It's something i thought about adding, much like "Ask Hidan about his faith", but in my opinion that must wait until we know Itachi won't kill us. Once that part is done, we can debate the technicalities all day long, i doubt Itachi would mind listening to ideas on how to change the world.
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I think that when we talk to Itachi about "why he shouldn't kill us", our general Uplift-speech is going to get poked by him to see if there's any substance behind our desires. So having the general outline of a trade plan would be a great boon to us. Maybe a "More specifically..." section at the very end?
 
Pein: Save the world!
itachi: No! I can't do this without you!

...months later...

Hazo: We can make lot of money trading through the summon realm, and then use that money to fund more medic-nin and other projects.
Itachi: Clearly he got potential. I am going to follow work with this 14 years old brat.

...20 years later...

Asuma: Hazo was right. *flashbacks to Tsuande was right* *flashbacks to Eibsu was right*
 
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faflec said:
I think that when we talk to Itachi about "why he shouldn't kill us", our general Uplift-speech is going to get poked by him to see if there's any substance behind our desires. So having the general outline of a trade plan would be a great boon to us. Maybe a "More specifically..." section at the very end?
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My idea is putting an example for all the "How" indents, but as it is currently 2:17 of the night where i'm here, the only i can think about is the trade one, other ideas would be appreciated, even if i will probably insert them tomorrow morning.
As of now, the "Stop other conflict "has"....

Lord Marshal said:
(Example: A trade network that uses the summon path, would make village prosperity dependent on lack of conflict between Villages/Summoners,due to economic consequences)
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I'm going to sleep, as i'm currently really in need of sleep...
Let's hope we'll survive this
 
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Lord Marshal said:
My idea is putting an example for all the "How" indents, but as it is currently 2:17 of the night where i'm here, the only i can think about is the trade one, other ideas would be appreciated, even if i will probably insert them tomorrow morning.
As of now, the "Stop other conflict "has"....



I'm going to sleep, as i'm currently really in need of sleep...
Let's hope we'll survive this
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Go to sleep, wake up within the next 10 hours of this post to make last-minute edits and you'll be fine.
 
For those against telling itachi about the seal failures. given how lord jashin's follows leaked the akatsuki ritual plan, and hidan's general personality, hidan might just blab it to itachi eventually.

Ideas to convince Itachi we can help bring world peace:
show ninjas how useful civilians all: already implemented with civilian research teams
arm civilians with weapons: see research on seal guns. work on plan that doesn't require sealmaster bottleneck. alternatives: poison training.

immortality, jutsu for economics for post scarcity society, and afterlife research: seek help from orochimaru. we've also read (?) one of his journals. if everyone has everything they want and can't die there's no point in fighting. also even jiraiya agreed the first village to use chakra for economics would quickly become a military superpower, and is part of the reason why Leaf is so strong. he said the reason why not done yet is the other villages would gang up. work on diplomacy.

learn from history: 1st hokage ended warring clans and gave civilians better treatment with no killing civies rule. jiraiya treats his spys well. tsunade helps medicine. all ninja with strong power but not necessarily great rulers.

learn from present: the 7th path seems to be much more peaceful, with notable exceptions (Pangolins). how do they do it? the yakuza, for all their vices, have clawed out some luxury for civilians in a harsh world with cleverness and loyalty. can train more civilians in this way, and to spread the loyalty to all civilians?

seek the sage of the 6th paths.
gather all the Five together. they have a higher hidden purpose?
threaten all the villages. whichever village starts a war Akatsuki will attack.
cultural exchange. ninja children mingle in each village to learn culture, when still young enough they don't have absolute loyalty to a single village yet. intervillage bonds.
go to another continent. see if there is a empire we can surrender to.
hiring the pangolins to kill all the chakra beasts. using chakra of the dead corpses to summon more pangolins.
genjutsu the world into a paradise
 
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Paperclipped said:
[X] Action Plan: Clean Up and Continue
Word Count: 286 (+1 XP)

Generally follow Hidan's lead and appease the demigod.
  • Address the sealing failures (except the afterlife).
    • Hidan may not realize they're failures. Learning it might overturn his opinion of you. Be ambivalent regarding whether you intended any of this.
    • Suggest killing the tentacles with excessive explosions.
      • Justification: it might grow into a huge mess Itachi won't be happy about.
    • Wall the screaming portal.
    • If Hidan vetoes cleanup and any of them are getting worse, sprint to the shrine and inform Itachi about what happened ASAP.
    • Otherwise, mention that you're glad you had Jashin's favor, because you're not sure how that could have happened otherwise.
  • Once back at the Oracle
    • Make sure the team is okay.
    • Discuss with Itachi.
      • Why should we live? Because our goals are roughly aligned and we can, through discussion, remove any friction.
        • A Clan Head in Leaf can do some interventions you can't.
      • People are "stupid, ignorant, and selfish." A forced peace would be temporary, if peaceful at all.
      • We want to find a lasting peace, and doing so is challenging.
        • We think one requirement would be a temporary peace. War builds weapons and grudges.
      • Currently, people are born and bred into a system of warfare. Isn't it conceivable that with different institutions, the average person might be good and not evil?
      • While we have ideas, Akatsuki has been thinking about these problems for a lot longer than us. Would you please share Akatsuki's insight?
        • Empathize, try to see why he believes what he does.
      • Here's what we've seen, and why we believe it will work.
        • Talk about our travels and deciding on Uplift.
      • Even if we don't work together, we would like to learn from you. How can we improve our ideas?
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Edits and wordcount cleanup.
 
Lord Marshal said:
I'm going to sleep, as i'm currently really in need of sleep...
Let's hope we'll survive this
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@Lord Marshal

I did some wordcount optimization (and minor cleanup/rewording for smoothness): 389 -> 293
  • Unless Hazou believes the sealing failures are dangerous to the island, quickly return to the Shrine with Hidan's permission.
    • If speaking with Hidan, don't lie, but don't explain that your victory was accidental.
  • Meet Itachi:
    • He called people stupid, selfish, and ignorant. However, these aren't inherent traits or neither of us would be here. Vengeance and cutthroat pragmatism cause the current self-sustaining system.
    • Between incredible paranoia and preemptive attacks, we know the world rewards violence. That's why it's impossible to break the cycle.
    • Hazou believes this is the biggest obstacle to surpass. For this to happen, it must first happen between those that seek change.
    • Neither of us know how to rule, nor are we so arrogant to think we could do everything alone. That's normal, because we are just individuals. Working together makes the difference.
    • Considering our histories, we shouldn't be capable of cooperation... and that's why we must. If we can break the cycle, we can find ways to break it everywhere.
  • The greatest thing you offer is the chance to communicate:
    • If our plans are wrong or inefficient, sharing improves them.
    • Here and now, let's peacefully influence each other.
  • Hazou is glad to explain his plans. Thecore motivation, untempered by pragmatism:
    • We need to free people from the system of hate until peace is the norm, and people defend peace as they now fuel war.
  • How?
    • Target vectors of conflict (Hunger, ignorance, lack of territory, vengeance...)
    • Grow; there many people that haven't realized their desire for peace.
    • Stop other conflicts, which fuel hatred.
      • Example: A Seventh Path trade network would make prosperity dependent on amicable relations between Villages/Summoners.
    • Protect those that move towards peace.
    • Much, much more. Hazou alone can't solve everything and this is why you're here.

I also have some suggestions:
  • I think commenting that we were lucky, implying that Jashin had his hands on the scales, is a good thing w.r.t. earning Hidan's favor.
  • We could stand to elaborate more on why the cycle of violence is hard to break. That said, I trust Itachi is clever enough to connect the dots.
  • I don't see why you say it has to start between people who seek change. I'm not sure if I (or Itachi would) buy that individual forgiveness and cooperation lead to international.
  • Itachi seems to have a "Big Men" view on history - he points to Sarutobi Hiruzen's personal skills are the reason for the former peace. With that in mind, saying something like "we are just individuals" could offend him, a Big Man. Moreover, this clashes directly with his worldview, so he might stop listening to us here, like he was about to stop listening to us in the last chapter.
  • The ninja system involves one person ruling alone. This is the default, and the apparent gold standard of rulers, the Third, was still a unilateral dictator when it came down to it. Claiming otherwise requires justification.
  • Saying "untempered by pragmatism" seems like we're proud of our naïveté. Not a good look, talking to someone who (likely) murdered their entire family for some ulterior motive.
  • My internal ninja's answer to "a trade network would remove the incentive for war" is "why would we trade and lose stuff when we can conquer them, then have our cake and eat it too?"
  • Saying "this is why you're here" seems like we're deciding his purpose for him. Seems bad.
With these suggestions in mind, I propose:

  • Unless Hazou believes the sealing failures are dangerous to the island, quickly return to the Shrine with Hidan's permission.
    • If speaking with Hidan, say you were very lucky. Thank Jashin's favor.
  • Meet Itachi:
    • He called people stupid, selfish, and ignorant. However, these aren't inherent traits or neither of us would be here. Vengeance and cutthroat pragmatism cause the current self-sustaining system.
    • Between incredible paranoia and preemptive attacks, the world rewards violence. You know that it's impossible to break the cycle.
    • This is the biggest obstacle to surpass. The first step is to forswear violence between those that seek change.
    • Neither of us know how to rule, nor are we so arrogant to think we could do everything alone. We're both excellent problem solvers and learners, and there are many others out there. The problem is not yet insurmountable.
    • Akatsuki brought together unlikely allies before. Let's work together to break the cycle.
  • The greatest thing you offer is the chance to communicate:
    • If our plans are wrong or inefficient, sharing improves them.
    • Here and now, let's peacefully influence each other.
  • Hazou is glad to explain his plans. The core motivation, a dream we believe we have a path to achieve:
    • We need to free people from the system of hate until peace is the norm, and people defend peace as they now fuel war.
  • How?
    • Target vectors of conflict (Hunger, ignorance, lack of territory, vengeance...)
    • Grow; there many people that haven't realized their desire for peace.
    • Stop other conflicts, which fuel hatred.
      • Trade acts as a carrot to prevent war between villages, so long as conquest isn't an option.
    • Protect those that move towards peace.
    • Much, much more. Hazou alone can't solve everything. We need your help.
 
Okay, I think that all of the leading plans make different good points, but none of them make them all.
What needs to be included:
  • Give an explicit, practical answer about why Hazou should live. @Oneiros' and @Lord Marshal's plans don't do that.
  • Give an abstract answer about the world's problems and potential solutions. All plans do that, but in different ways that I think could be improved by synthesis.
  • Present practical ideas about the steps we'd like to take to solve the aforementioned problems. @Paperclipped's plan doesn't do that.
What doesn't need to be included:
  • @Lord Marshal, your spiel is fine on the ideological level, but I think it spends a bit too much time outlining the problems and reiterating the points. Surely Itachi is smart enough that a more concise version will suffice.
  • @Oneiros, I'm iffy on whether we should, at this juncture, ask about the Scroll and any shinies they might give us. It might make us seem power-hungry and opportunistic in negative ways, and hurt the image we're trying to build. Additionally, we're trying to spin it as a mutually beneficial alliance of independently powerful factions; asking them for help would make us look weak, subordinate. At the very least we should offer some shinies in turn.
  • @Paperclipped, I doubt Itachi will be interested in our travel stories.
Also, some of you are doing things like calling problems "impossible to solve" then talking about how to solve them, that looks weird.

Here's what I believe to be a more optimal approach:

[x] Action Plan #5
Word count: 299
  • Sealing failures:
    • Hidan may not realize they're failures. Learning this might overturn his opinion of you, so avoid explaining it in his presence. Don't outright lie, though.
    • Casually suggest killing the tentacles and blocking the screaming rift. Justifications: they might grow into a huge mess Itachi won't be happy about.
      • Hidan's unlikely to let you touch Daizen's rift. Don't mention it.
    • If Hidan vetoes the idea, or containment fails, take your leave. Inform Itachi about everything ASAP.
  • After returning, ensure the team is okay. Continue the discussion.
    • Itachi had called people stupid, selfish, and ignorant. He's not wrong, but people aren't inherently this way, or our two groups wouldn't be here. They're made this way by a self-sustaining system that incentivizes ruthlessness, breeds hate, and glorifies violence. Breaking out of it would require changing both the incentives and the people — approaching the problem from the top-down and from the bottom-up, until peace is the norm and war is unthinkable.
    • Why should you live? Because your goals are roughly aligned with his, and any remaining friction can be removed through reasonable discussion... as long as neither party falls into the same patterns that sustain the status quo. A Clan Head in Leaf can do some interventions Itachi can't.
    • Practically, some of your goals are:
      • Maintain temporary peace. Wars build grudges.
      • Address basic needs of the people. Hunger, lack of human comforts, and lack of resources in general, are what fundamentally fuels wars.
      • Strengthen economic ties between nations (via Summoning Scrolls or otherwise), until wars become unprofitable.
      • Gradually change the cultural norms, by demonstrating the usefulness of cooperation and non-violent pursuits.
        • And by straightforward indoctrination, of course.
    • While you have ideas, Akatsuki has been thinking about this much longer than you. If he's willing to share their insights, you'd listen.
 
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[x] Action Plan #5



EDIT: wrt the sealing failure, can we just say "deal with things to Hazous best ability", maybe leaving the infinite death loop for Hidan? I feel like Hazou knows best if he can beat the vines with explosives, or seal up the shrieking rift.

I really like your Itachi section.
 
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Paperclipped said:
EDIT: wrt the sealing failure, can we just say "deal with things to Hazous best ability", maybe leaving the infinite death loop for Hidan? I feel like Hazou knows best if he can beat the vines with explosives, or seal up the shrieking rift.
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Modified the section a bit:
Noumero said:
  • Sealing failures:
    • Hidan may not realize they're failures. Learning it might overturn his opinion of you. In his presence, be ambivalent regarding whether they were intentional.
    • Casually suggest killing the tentacles and blocking the screaming rift. Justifications: they might grow into a huge mess Itachi won't be happy about.
      • Hidan's unlikely to let you touch Daizen's rift, so don't mention it.
    • If Hidan vetoes the idea, or containment fails, take your leave. Inform Itachi about everything ASAP.
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I feel it might be important to phrase it as "killing" the thing, to pique Hidan's interest.
 
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