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I don't think training the Namekian soldiers is a big deal, honestly. The champion-tier fight will happen in an instant, at which point it is likely the enemy will retreat, or take large penalties. Ki Refinement is just really, really good.

Not sure if you meant to approval vote for my plan, and I'm not sure how strikethrough interacts with the tally.
ki refinement can be trained on the ship/while we travel, namekians can't. That's basically the only reason i want to take it now instead of later. The idea is that once we give them some training tips they can continue training for the next few months until the invasion.

I agree that we probably won't need them to fight..but we thought we were ready against Dandeer too. Consider it an extra precaution, and a way to gain some extra approval from the namekians and prepare them in case they need to defend themselves once we're gone, or to make the adventurers that are going to start their scouting in the next few months a bit stronger.

Also EVEN if they don't need the extra power now they might need it once we depart from Namek, or if a few scouts come before the invasion starts in earnest.

about the approval vote... i was going to, then i thought i would wait to see if my plan would get some attention, so i crossed it. If it doesn't I'll probably vote yours, cause i REALLY want potential unlocked and spirit bomb experimentation.


@HoratioVonBecker I was just writing to you :p

I'll wait a bit more about the hell speedrun just to be certain we have at least perfect multiform too, and possibly a few more tricks in case things go wrong. that would raise our chances, as we only need one clone to make it through. There's also the fact that we don't know if going through hell will take just one hour, or even days or weeks. We don't know if it would just take pure strenght, or if we'll need to talk/convince anyone in there. in that case going with spirit saiyan active just paints a target on us, and once it fades away we're back to our normal power level.

If we have both spirit saiyan AND perfect multiform we can simply ask Yemma once there, and if he tells us it can't be done in an hour we can simply enter stealthed, and whenever we're close to possible enemies (or we need to talk to a damned soul) we can send a perfect multiform of us while one of the other bodies (they're technically all "real") gets as far away as possible
 
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And Scout Camp? It's the one with actual votes for it, anyway.
I want to wait until we complete perfect multiform before we start training ki sense to elite. I'm also not sure i want machine sense (like you proposed before i think) instead of the all is one.

When i made the comparison i also took only the two leading plans for ease of comparison. Two plans are easy to compare, three would have been a bit unwieldy to me.

Also you hadn't voted for it yet (and i remembered the proposed but unvoted plans only after i posted my comparison), and i REALLY want the spirit saiyan experimentation.
 
With the mechanical clarification, I now agree with you. Like, to the point that I'm wondering why Apra could lose against Dazarel, if she was even twice his effective power level. Or why she didn't donate to Tabe and get him to blitz Dazarel, if she was so bad at Overcharge that she couldn't get that working.
Maybe the telekinetic interference was just that good at overcoming speed gaps, and she was in Oozaru mode where the speed gap wasn't as large? That's what I'm guessing, anyway.
She was very rusty, donating that much Ki to Tabe would probably have killed him on the spot, and the telekinesis was having a significant effect.
 
about the potential unlocking, i think it's fair that we don't know what it does precisely. I think it's enough that we know (and poptart pretty much confirmed it when he said we'll have to "adapt" to the changes) that it will DO something. I'd expect a rank up in some skills, as they "just clicked", though that's obviously just my theory.

Who knows, maybe if we're lucky we might get a second psychich power. Or for all we know it might help going beyond the "mental block" that blocks us from reaching ssj2. It probably depends at least in part on one or more dice rolls



now, let me see what are the main differences between the currently leading plans... I'll cross equal/similar enough options.

[] Plan Crash Training
-[] Sight - 2 AP (2)
--[] Looking Abroad (1 AP) [The Invasion Fleet, especially the leader]
--[] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
-[] Training 3 AP (3+4)
--[] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Team Fighting]
---[] Do this before anything else
--[] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Perfect Multiform]

--[] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Refinement]
--[] Broken Precedent (2 AP)
--[] Style Training (1 AP) [Tien Style]

--[] Spirit Bomb Experimentation (1 AP)
-[] Social- 2 AP (2+1)
--[] Strange Sister (1 AP) x2

--[]Potential Unlocking (1 AP)
-[] The Outside World - 2 AP (2)
--[] Instruction (1 AP)
--[] Historical Insights (1 AP)
-[] A Cause - 1 AP (1)

--[] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Refinement]


[] Plan Preparations and Foundations
-[] The Sight (2 AP automatically Assigned)
--[] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
--[] Looking Abroad (1 AP) The Invasion Fleet Plans and Composition]: Information on the movement and plans of the invasion force. Goal is to understand how they're attacking and with who/what, with secondary focus on as much exact "when" as possible.
-[]Training (3 AP automatically Assigned)
--[] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Multiform]
--[] Style Training (1 AP) [Tien Style]
--[] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Team Fighting]
-[] Social (2 AP automatically Assigned)
--[] Strange Sister x2 (2 AP)
-[] The Outside World (2 AP automatically Assigned)
--[] Instruction (1 AP)
--[] Historical Insights (1 AP)

-[] A Cause (1 AP)
--[] Use Sight (Past Sight) to view Tien, and other masters of Tien Style from Garenhuld, to get a better understanding of how the masters practice this style, to give ourselves more direction. Having our Style be stronger means we have a better chance of taking on Dandeer's thralls in a non-lethal manner, especially if we eventually unlock Perfect Multiform.
-[] Free AP (5 AP free to use anywhere)
--[] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Dodonpa]
--[] Broken Precedent (2 AP)
--[] General Training (2 AP)


so, 4 AP worth of differences

[] Plan Crash Training has 2 AP of ki refinement training, 1 of Spirit bomb experimentation and 1 of potential unlocking

[] Plan Preparations and Foundations has 1 ap of Dodonpa training, 1 AP of past sight about tien style,and 2 AP of "general training" (training the namekians.

hopes it helps, it certainly helped me decide. Makes things easier when you can compare plans in terms of what are the main differences.

[x] Plan Crash Training

to me the potential unlocking and spirit bomb experimentation are worth more. ki refinement is also nice.

I'd be fine exchanging the 2 "ki refinement AP for the general training though...

eh, why not, I'll make a plan for it too!

[x] PLAN BEST OF BOTH! (i hope)
-[] The Sight (2 AP automatically Assigned)
--[] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
--[] Looking Abroad (1 AP) The Invasion Fleet Plans and Composition]: Information on the movement and plans of the invasion force. Goal is to understand how they're attacking and with who/what, with secondary focus on as much exact "when" as possible.
-[]Training (3 AP automatically Assigned)
--[] To Go Beyond (1 AP) [Multiform]
--[] Style Training (1 AP) [Tien Style]
--[] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Team Fighting]
-[] Social (2 AP automatically Assigned)
--[] Strange Sister x2 (2 AP)
-[] The Outside World (2 AP automatically Assigned)
--[] Instruction (1 AP)
--[] Historical Insights (1 AP)
-[] A Cause (1 AP)
--[] Spirit Bomb Experimentation (1 AP). The spirit bomb is your strongest weapon, a technique that would allow you to use the power of all the allies you'll make in the wide galaxy against any and all enemy. Especially Dandeer. She might block the people of Garenhuld from helping you, but that won't be enough to stop you. Enough power will make any confrontation trivial. You need to know the limits of this legendary technique though.
-[] Free AP (5 AP free to use anywhere)
--[] General Training (2 AP)
--[]Potential Unlocking (1 AP)
--[] Broken Precedent (2 AP)

Basically i took

from [] Plan Crash Training has 1 AP of Spirit bomb experimentation and 1 AP of potential unlocking.

from [] Plan Preparations and Foundations has 2 AP of "general training" (training the namekians).

we can do ki refinement and past sight about tien style next turn.



@Deathbybunnies @KnightDisciple how would you feel about PLAN BEST OF BOTH! (i hope) as a compromise?
I value Style Training, and training up a Technique we can easily and repeatedly use, as more valuable than Spirit Bomb (which is highly situational, not easily repeatable, and a major infohazard) and Ki Refinement (which is trainable and not an infohazard, but which blatantly reduces our combat endurance).
 
I value Style Training, and training up a Technique we can easily and repeatedly use, as more valuable than Spirit Bomb (which is highly situational, not easily repeatable, and a major infohazard) and Ki Refinement (which is trainable and not an infohazard, but which blatantly reduces our combat endurance).
my reasoning is that we can only train spirit saiyan here on namek, while ki refinement can be trained everywhere. Same for the general training of the namekians (and they'll also continue training once we're gone) ssj2 (though i'm not pushing for that right now anymore) or potential unlocked.

Spirit Saiyan IS highly situational, that's true.

It's also our final trump card.

I think we need to know how it really works, just in case.

Maybe we can charge it from inside Bassoon and slowly give him that ki, just a few millions of it (a few millions probably shouldn't even require "willing donations", and maybe he'll react to that better than to ours. If we give him comparatively little ki maybe it will be "felt" differently).

Maybe we can have a multiform charge it, so that we can fight at a PL a lot higher that what we'd be sensed like (1.125/4= 281,25 millions). Maybe we can use it as a Golden Oozaru (though i can't really see WHY we'd want to). Maybe there's something else about it we don't know.

It turns out that every five percent extra power is equal to a whole level of Style training. It's worth the endurance hit.
i have to admit, I didn't realize just how effective ki refinement is. I still think we should give precedence to those actions that can only be taken on Namek right now. Raw power shouldn't be THAT important in our coming travel anyway, and general training in particular should hopefully help the other adventurers too. We're not the only one going off planet after all.
 
Upon further reflection, since this Quest runs on preference voting (or whatever it's called, I'm fried right now):
EDIT: Revised vote.

[] PLAN BEST OF BOTH! (i hope)

[] Plan Preparations and Foundations
 
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So, as promised, here is my vote.

[X] Plan Preparing for a Sea Change
-[X] Sight - 2 AP (2)
--[X] Looking Abroad (1 AP) The Invasion Fleet, especially the leader
--[X] Continue Your Training (1 AP)
-[X] Training 3 AP
--[X] (Write in) Spirit Bomb Studies (1 AP)
--[X] Broken Precedent (2 AP)
-[X] Social- 2 AP
--[X] Strange Sister (1 AP)
--[X] Potential Unlocking (1 AP)
-[X] The Outside World - 2 AP
--[X] (Write in) Specific Historical Insights: Powerful Galactic figures since the days of the Z Fighters
--[X] Instruction (1 AP)
-[X] A Cause - 1 AP
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Team Fighting]
-[X] Free AP - 5 AP
--[X] To Go Beyond (2 AP): Multiform x2
--[X] Improve A Skill (2 AP): Spirit Saiyan x2
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) Ki Refinement


So as promised, here is my plan. I think hell diving is a good thing to shoot for. I also think we're months off from being able to go there, so instead of just rushing to it I'm working on the time critical path to hell dive. Namely, I think we need a few key skills raised - Sight Training, Spirit Saiyan, and Multiform - and those are going to take time, so there isn't any point in rushing the other prep we need to have done before the hell run. Instead, we can devote the rest of our AP to immediate concerns, like scouting the invasion fleet, instructing bassoon, and especially Perika.

As for the Specific historical insights, the goal is to find out what might be lying in wait for us in hell, that isn't obvious from scrying. We know that kid buu was the strongest mortal the universe had ever seen, but we also know that this didn't remain the case, and while Freeza / The Enemy remain alive, that might not be true for everyone like that either. The goal here is to figure out if we should be expecting threats more along the lines of late Z villains, as seems to be the case for the royal Arcosans and Dazarel, or more into super tier. Note that I'm still waiting to here back from poptart on the write in
discord said:
Quantum TesseractToday at 1:24 PM
PoptartProdigy can we ask basoon for a specific history lesson via Historical Insights / an equivalent The Outside World vote, or would that be a social AP?

PoptartProdigyToday at 1:24 PM
ill say you can
wait no
maybe
get back to you later
So if that doesn't work, I'll probably just go historical insights, since that way when we do go to research this directly we have a better idea of where to focus our research.

Can we save the helldive for after we help the namekians fight off the invasion?
I certainly hope so, but I also am aware that a safe hell dive will require, at minimum, months of prep, so if we want to be ready to do it after we drive off the invasion, we should be starting the long lasting parts of our prep (getting perfect multiform, scouting threats, training spirit bomb) now, so we aren't tempted to go in with those only half completed later and pay for it with our life.
 
Alright, @QTesseract, you've convinced me.

[X] Plan Scout Camp
[X] Plan Preparing for a Sea Change
Because I care more about building that Relationship and I'm not convinced Potential Unlock does something useful.
Are the odds of Potential Unlock doing something useful so low? I like Perika, but Kakara isn't her mom. And apparently, Potential Unlocked Gohan didn't have to transform to fight at super-saiyan level - and I'm pretty sure that was after Cell, so he'd already mastered the first transformation. It could be really, really big, particularly for infosec.
 
Alright, @QTesseract, you've convinced me.

[X] Plan Scout Camp
[X] Plan Preparing for a Sea Change

Are the odds of Potential Unlock doing something useful so low? I like Perika, but Kakara isn't her mom. And apparently, Potential Unlocked Gohan didn't have to transform to fight at super-saiyan level - and I'm pretty sure that was after Cell, so he'd already mastered the first transformation. It could be really, really big, particularly for infosec.
1.) To me, yes. That's why I'm voting that way.
2.) You're discussing Gohan getting his power unlocked by the Old Kai, not Guru on Namek. If that's your justification for attempting to have the several-generations-descendant Guru, it feels pretty thin on the ground.
 
1.) To me, yes. That's why I'm voting that way.
2.) You're discussing Gohan getting his power unlocked by the Old Kai, not Guru on Namek. If that's your justification for attempting to have the several-generations-descendant Guru, it feels pretty thin on the ground.
Note that the reason old Kai could do this was that he fused with a witch. His potential unlock isn't some kind of divine ability, so it's almost certainly achievable by the namekians. The question is if they have achieved it.
 
2.) You're discussing Gohan getting his power unlocked by the Old Kai, not Guru on Namek. If that's your justification for attempting to have the several-generations-descendant Guru, it feels pretty thin on the ground.
Not the Guru, an Unlocking specialist. The Old Kai rebuilt their magical tradition pretty much from the ground up, and there are now mages on Namek who practice it. It seems likely to me that whoever we find may be even better than the Old Kai, because magic seems to benefit quite a lot from institutional knowledge in this setting.
Note that the reason old Kai could do this was that he fused with a witch. His potential unlock isn't some kind of divine ability, so it's almost certainly achievable by the namekians. The question is if they have achieved it.
They explicitly have - remember Bassoon talking about Great Man history?
 
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Not the Guru, an Unlocking specialist. The Old Kai rebuilt their magical tradition pretty much from the ground up, and there are now mages on Namek who practice it. It seems likely to me that whoever we find may be even better than the Old Kai, because magic seems to benefit quite a lot from institutional knowledge in this setting.

They explicitly have - remember Bassoon talking about Great Man history?
They've explicitly surpassed Guru, who had a touch based single action unlock. They haven't explicitly surpassed Old Kai, who had an entire day long ritual from an entirely different magic system. I'm confident that eventually the Namekians Will bridge the gap between Guru and Old kai, the question is how far along that path they are at the current moment.
 
Note that the reason old Kai could do this was that he fused with a witch. His potential unlock isn't some kind of divine ability, so it's almost certainly achievable by the namekians. The question is if they have achieved it.
Do we actually know that what he did is not in any way, shape, form, or idea rooted in or connected to his very nature as a Kai, and indeed as one of the higher-order Kais (one responsible for a sector of a Universe)?

Not the Guru, an Unlocking specialist. The Old Kai rebuilt their magical tradition pretty much from the ground up, and there are now mages on Namek who practice it. It seems likely to me that whoever we find may be even better than the Old Kai, because magic seems to benefit quite a lot from institutional knowledge in this setting.

They explicitly have - remember Bassoon talking about Great Man history?
Do we have any evidence of there being "unlocking specialists" on Namek who have a different magical Unlock than Guru of old?

Further, do you have any evidence of this:
The Old Kai rebuilt their magical tradition pretty much from the ground up
That supposition seems entirely out of nowhere and disconnected from discussion of what the Namekians are capable of performing. The resources for a Kai, a literal god of creation, seem like they have potential to be just a bit higher than entirely-mortal regenerating lizard-slug-people.
 
They've explicitly surpassed Guru, who had a touch based single action unlock. They haven't explicitly surpassed Old Kai, who had an entire day long ritual from an entirely different magic system. I'm confident that eventually the Namekians Will bridge the gap between Guru and Old kai, the question is how far along that path they are at the current moment.
To be fair, they only need to have surpassed Guru to have the Potential Unlocking. I don't know how big a deal it'd be, but there's a fairly wide range of things it could do - and this is our last chance to get it for quite a while.
 
Wait a minute. How exactly does PL bonus scale? Bulma Kane was holding her own against someone five times stronger than her, which means she was either beating a +800, or directly neutralizing it somehow.
They've explicitly surpassed Guru, who had a touch based single action unlock. They haven't explicitly surpassed Old Kai, who had an entire day long ritual from an entirely different magic system. I'm confident that eventually the Namekians Will bridge the gap between Guru and Old kai, the question is how far along that path they are at the current moment.
Okay, I'm apparently confusing two different events. I vaguely remember the ritual now that I'm remembering Old Kai as the guy who was locked in the sword, whereas I don't think the Guru did anything in the manga except die and use the Dragonballs. I was assuming the Guru's unlocking was some kind of anime or movie powerup, and I have no idea what it did but I assume it's worth 1AP.
Ah, so there aren't formal rules for it. Do you mind if I propose some mechanics?
Team Fighting is resolved as the currently-leading teammate's Team Fighting roll plus a teammate bonus. Each non-lead teammate adds 5+[half their Team Fighting skill] to the teammate bonus. Teammate bonus is capped at [lead teammate's Team Fighting modifier] x 2.
Resulting in-universe implications: Team Fighting is a viable way of assisting in combat way above your power level. 3-5 people is generally the optimal group size, without Talents or Traits, but it scales up with skill - a Legendary leader could effectively coordinate 20 Unlearned teammates, even if it isn't their specialty.
Implications for Multiform: Tenshinhan must have had a Trait or something, because you'd need Legendary Team Fighting for the teammate bonus to even possibly match a 50% PL drop against a peer-PL opponent. It's really good for supporting other people who are Team Fighting, though.
 
Okay! I've been convinced about Potential unlocking.

I'll be back soon with a new plan that focuses on what we need to be on Namek to actually accomplish.
 
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