Hmm.

[x] Vebyast

Looks like a decent refinement.

The changes I'd make are:

• Offering to answer Homura's questions, as an explicit standing offer, is important enough that it should probably be shifted out of "low-priority" and get its own dedicated little section.

• The important thing to discuss with Homura is that Hitomi's Mom probably remembered because of our request to the Incubator, so I'd edit the "low-priority" listing to reflect that.

• While I agree that emphasizing Madoka's quality of life is probably a better approach, I feel we should at least mention the way that involving Madoka will probably help reduce Wish chances?
 
TL;DR Extreme thinking no. Homura filters out positive social info, no. Homura is affirmed as the Hero, Homura uses agency, yes.
Enchanting practice today is a social event, low stakes, have Homura stand up, and stand out a bit. This is something to ask her to do.


Also we're trying to make Homura internalize that this is the last timeline, and making her set up contingencies for our failure will not do that. If we can't have unflappable faith that the loop ends here, Homura won't.
Having unflappable faith in anything is a terrible idea, especially in something as risky as our complete victory. In the event of a failure without contingency planning when the consequences are this serious, that failure will spiral beyond any and all control.

I wouldn't believe that anyone could seriously accept such a policy if I didn't just read your post.

We aren't going to just magically make Homura forget about decades of failed timelines by believing hard enough. The knowledge that failure is possible will be there no matter what we do, and trying to suppress it and not discuss contingency plans will only increase her anxiety because she'll feel there's nothing she can do if we mess up. By my estimation, ignoring this will only put her under pressure with the idea that she has to succeed no matter what, while a failure contingency will assuage this source of stress and improve her mental health.
Might I find a way to make these ideas not collide?
Homura has been in a condition of abuse, as we understand her backstory. Not physically lethal abuse, but her loop 0 personality shows plentiful scars. Her self esteem is low enough to make her socially disabled, and possibly suicidal. AFAIK, abuse is almost 100% likely to result in some form of extreme thinking - the cognitive lack of gradations in judgment, incorrect polarity of experience, self-reinforcing negative behavior.
Gaining her best friend put loop 0 Homura on a course to resist her past, and reach out to someone else. Then the abuse got worse. I'm not saying it's aliens - but it's aliens. Homura balances between the broken and the growing parts of her personality, but it's dynamically stable, under the tremendous bias of living in her own invisible war. Fast forward 8-10 years, where we get involved.
We have five weeks, the blessing of God, and a can-do attitude to make this better.
It strikes me that we need to keep focused upon what we could do, and what we need to do.

Probably not the way either argument was intended, but not an invalid interpretation -
Do we need Homura to act as if this is the winning loop? Is there something she would do only with that mindset? Is there another reason?
Do we need Homura focused upon preparing for another loop? Is there something special about that she isn't already prepped for?
What does Homura need to do for her own sake?

If I take that apart, 'what does Homura need?' I might find answers. Homura has a goal she experiences needs from. Homura also has personal needs, some she recognizes and some she represses. She probably chose that way due to isolation and utility.
I would think that releasing every limit all at once is similar to the Potentialbomb. So we have some needs we could think to act upon, and other we need to prepare for in the future?

The safe path to 'give Homura what she needs' is something we will have to solve. It is a path that doesn't complete in our timeframe, barring reality warp. We could choose the start of the path, and take the task on with commitment. Anything we do that is correct will grant her benefits, and correct means not using our positive influence out-of-order.

What do we help with? All things are at the level of basics. We are extending the example of 'Self Care.' We are giving her an improved bonding experience, a few bricks shy of adoption, nearly at the true family level under the wartime conditions we exist under. We are offering confirmation, and validation. We are also slinging around gifts of accomplishment, the efforts we make are doing things. There is no way I would take those back, but simply feeling her dialogue we are to acknowledge we went too far, too fast. We are required to. That is a problem built right into the trap we are trying to get everyone out of, so we have to grin and bear with 'doing it a little wrong.' Fighting against killer AI bunnycats is hard.

Current goal? Focus on the "How" for now. Instead of coloring over Homura's emotional horizon, telling her to expect this or that end of the world, we aid more basic tasks first. Cognitive basics. Help her resist extreme thinking, and help her to evaluate the reality around her.
If she can resist extreme thinking, she will be more able to regulate her emotions. This is huge, because dis-regulation is a fatal flaw for every magical Girl. In Homura's case, many of her other flaws have been compensated for or armored during her career, so this is her remaining largest source of danger. In practical terms, the more we teach her to think moderately, the harder it is to Witch her.
The other aid will help her see the world around her again. Why is Homura so shocked when we tell her that she has successfully befriended Sayaka? They had a friendly interaction not hours ago. Homura is discounting such information. Likely, Homura filters out A LOT of social information. If we can have her see a little more of this, and make it a positive reinforcement experience, it leads to seeing the people and events around her accurately. We could add a stretch goal, of the meta variety. 'Expand the range of her future' is a good sort of tool to be ready for the difficult adjustment to the start of the next month. Thus, I would talk about Sayaka and her sleuthing in terms of "how many weeks in the future." As it makes the future 'real' again.

So, I favor those two goals ATM. So far as tactics, we had a good vote last time - be properly OCD when we can, and stay by her side, in the metaphorical sense. Our "jobs" require spreading out, but our hearts need to be close.
Next tactic, plan for Madoka involvement, starting at the detailed action level. "Only solutions." Motives in-depth can't go forward today? we can abbreviate, 'active listen,' have Homura talk her thinking out to us. That, we will hold for next time, so Homura doesn't have to hold it in herself. We must have sound reasoning too - and a safety technique. Having an 'explain Madoka' session is good, but probably not right now. Fatigue is a thing. We should honestly offer it to her, and Homura will draw us back for it when she is ready. OOC, let's have that Madoka debate, and become ready.

Thought - Wouldn't it be better to help Homura by ensuring she knows what she can do for Madoka here in the current timeline? I feel like there is a definite undertone of Homura thinking she might be a little useless ar times. She tried to save Madoka countless times and failed then Sabrina shows up and pulls off creating a timeline that she would of thought was impossible.

I know we've done some things to alleviate this but I think they coulf easily be seen as just words to assuage the worries with no real weight behind them. It's like telling someone they are needed for the team just ro avoid hurt feelings.

We should show that when it comes to protecting Madoka Homura is the best option, perhaps the only worthy option really. Oh sure Sabrina could do well but Sabrina wants to save everyone [well that and Madoka wishing might cause a bad end for us...] but as Sabrina said she sorta belongs to Mami. Homura has no split loyalties - her top concern, her only concern for awhile, was Madoka.

Anyway

Helping Homura be sure of her own worth in the present timeline is useful in the present timeline and helps, I think, alleviate some of the issues about having Homura think if this TL fails she's wasted her time.
Correct, the subtlety is giving us issues with delivery to the target. Homura is in fact the hero for Madoka. Madoka has never been safer (though we Know that isn't a settled issue yet.) Problem being, successful security detail is uninspiring, and gives zero feedback. Homura can't feel her power. Sabrina is doing the celebrity stuff. But the real threats to Madoka are a) Madoka's unformed personal drives and b) Kyuubey. Hot lead only helps with one of those things.
If we can get enough hot patches on Homura, we miiight be able to get her to understand her Heroism in a more sophisticated way, and that would let her feel satisfaction.
In the mean time, I think heavy team involvement is the policy that helps the most. We have to let Homura be the bodyguard, with minor exceptions. That doesn't rule out Homura as the mission controller over OUR shoulder, whenever the mission allows. She has a small lifetime of experience, and she should feel us asking her for that.

Case in point, Vladivostok went well. Homura got boss time in there, to the benefit of all (except the Russian Federation.) Case in point, [REDACTED] was yet another team win not even possible without Homura. She is able to have us be pickets and sentries, so she can do the decisive steps. Politics in Tokyo aren't her forte, but what is? Tactical approach. When we go visit Tokyo, we should definitely have Homura on the line, selecting actions that make sense to her. Which end of town to approach? Where to make a covert inspection? How to sweep into the room? We can be able to borrow some of her veteran's cred. Under control, it is an amazing power, much as Mami has a few mysterious advantages that come with her scars. It might be part of how we get down to polite talking with tough girls in Meji, instead of orthodox 'befriending.'
 
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TL;DR Extreme thinking no. Homura filters out positive social info, no. Homura is affirmed as the Hero, Homura uses agency, yes.
Enchanting practice today is a social event, low stakes, have Homura stand up, and stand out a bit. This is something to ask her to do.




Might I find a way to make these ideas not collide?
Homura has been in a condition of abuse, as we understand her backstory. Not physically lethal abuse, but her loop 0 personality shows plentiful scars. Her self esteem is low enough to make her socially disabled, and possibly suicidal. AFAIK, abuse is almost 100% likely to result in some form of extreme thinking - the cognitive lack of gradations in judgment, incorrect polarity of experience, self-reinforcing negative behavior.
Gaining her best friend put loop 0 Homura on a course to resist her past, and reach out to someone else. Then the abuse got worse. I'm not saying it's aliens - but it's aliens. Homura balances between the broken and the growing parts of her personality, but it's dynamically stable, under the tremendous bias of living in her own invisible war. Fast forward 8-10 years, where we get involved.
We have five weeks, the blessing of God, and a can-do attitude to make this better.
It strikes me that we need to keep focused upon what we could do, and what we need to do.

Probably not the way either argument was intended, but not an invalid interpretation -
Do we need Homura to act as if this is the winning loop? Is there something she would do only with that mindset? Is there another reason?
Do we need Homura focused upon preparing for another loop? Is there something special about that she isn't already prepped for?
What does Homura need to do for her own sake?

If I take that apart, 'what does Homura need?' I might find answers. Homura has a goal she experiences needs from. Homura also has personal needs, some she recognizes and some she represses. She probably chose that way due to isolation and utility.
I would think that releasing every limit all at once is similar to the Potentialbomb. So we have some needs we could think to act upon, and other we need to prepare for in the future?

The safe path to 'give Homura what she needs' is something we will have to solve. It is a path that doesn't complete in our timeframe, barring reality warp. We could choose the start of the path, and take the task on with commitment. Anything we do that is correct will grant her benefits, and correct means not using our positive influence out-of-order.

What do we help with? All things are at the level of basics. We are extending the example of 'Self Care.' We are giving her an improved bonding experience, a few bricks shy of adoption, nearly at the true family level under the wartime conditions we exist under. We are offering confirmation, and validation. We are also slinging around gifts of accomplishment, the efforts we make are doing things. There is no way I would take those back, but simply feeling her dialogue we are to acknowledge we went too far, too fast. We are required to. That is a problem built right into the trap we are trying to get everyone out of, so we have to grin and bear with 'doing it a little wrong.' Fighting against killer AI bunnycats is hard.

Current goal? Focus on the "How" for now. Instead of coloring over Homura's emotional horizon, telling her to expect this or that end of the world, we aid more basic tasks first. Cognitive basics. Help her resist extreme thinking, and help her to evaluate the reality around her.
If she can resist extreme thinking, she will be more able to regulate her emotions. This is huge, because dis-regulation is a fatal flaw for every magical Girl. In Homura's case, many of her other flaws have been compensated for or armored during her career, so this is her remaining largest source of danger. In practical terms, the more we teach her to think moderately, the harder it is to Witch her.
The other aid will help her see the world around her again. Why is Homura so shocked when we tell her that she has successfully befriended Sayaka? They had a friendly interaction not hours ago. Homura is discounting such information. Likely, Homura filters out A LOT of social information. If we can have her see a little more of this, and make it a positive reinforcement experience, it leads to seeing the people and events around her accurately. We could add a stretch goal, of the meta variety. 'Expand the range of her future' is a good sort of tool to be ready for the difficult adjustment to the start of the next month. Thus, I would talk about Sayaka and her sleuthing in terms of "how many weeks in the future." As it makes the future 'real' again.

So, I favor those two goals ATM. So far as tactics, we had a good vote last time - be properly OCD when we can, and stay by her side, in the metaphorical sense. Our "jobs" require spreading out, but our hearts need to be close.
Next tactic, plan for Madoka involvement, starting at the detailed action level. "Only solutions." Motives in-depth can't go forward today? we can abbreviate, 'active listen,' have Homura talk her thinking out to us. That, we will hold for next time, so Homura doesn't have to hold it in herself. We must have sound reasoning too - and a safety technique. Having an 'explain Madoka' session is good, but probably not right now. Fatigue is a thing. We should honestly offer it to her, and Homura will draw us back for it when she is ready. OOC, let's have that Madoka debate, and become ready.


Correct, the subtlety is giving us issues with delivery to the target. Homura is in fact the hero for Madoka. Madoka has never been safer (though we Know that isn't a settled issue yet.) Problem being, successful security detail is uninspiring, and gives zero feedback. Homura can't feel her power. Sabrina is doing the celebrity stuff. But the real threats to Madoka are a) Madoka's unformed personal drives and b) Kyuubey. Hot lead only helps with one of those things.
If we can get enough hot patches on Homura, we miiight be able to get her to understand her Heroism in a more sophisticated way, and that would let her feel satisfaction.
In the mean time, I think heavy team involvement is the policy that helps the most. We have to let Homura be the bodyguard, with minor exceptions. That doesn't rule out Homura as the mission controller over OUR shoulder, whenever the mission allows. She has a small lifetime of experience, and she should feel us asking her for that.

Case in point, Vladivostok went well. Homura got boss time in there, to the benefit of all (except the Russian Federation.) Case in point, [REDACTED] was yet another team win not even possible without Homura. She is able to have us be pickets and sentries, so she can do the decisive steps. Politics in Tokyo aren't her forte, but what is? Tactical approach. When we go visit Tokyo, we should definitely have Homura on the line, selecting actions that make sense to her. Which end of town to approach? Where to make a covert inspection? How to sweep into the room? We can be able to borrow some of her veteran's cred. Under control, it is an amazing power, much as Mami has a few mysterious advantages that come with her scars. It might be part of how we get to down to polite talking with tough girls in Meji, instead of orthodox 'befriending.'

Excellent points all around.

Drawing on Homura's experiences when it comes to the nitty-gritty tactical details is likely to both improve our own performance and make her feel like a valuable contributor.

Offering to explain Madoka is... well, it's an extremely powerful tool, but I don't think that Homura is ready for the love talk just yet - she doesn't know that she sees Madoka that way.

And yes, the circumstances require us to rush the psychology far more than would be ideal - but as you say, there's nothing to do except to just accept the limits our situation and move on.
 
Excellent points all around.

Drawing on Homura's experiences when it comes to the nitty-gritty tactical details is likely to both improve our own performance and make her feel like a valuable contributor.

Offering to explain Madoka is... well, it's an extremely powerful tool, but I don't think that Homura is ready for the love talk just yet - she doesn't know that she sees Madoka that way.

And yes, the circumstances require us to rush the psychology far more than would be ideal - but as you say, there's nothing to do except to just accept the limits our situation and move on.
Love is way too early, by a reasonable measure. I would put it as "we need to get her cleaned up for her date." In simpler terms, Homura's appeal is being clouded over by her symptoms. As we get her success, safety and health, Madoka will fall for her all over again.

The "explain Madoka" that we could, and perhaps should, offer at a future time is "Madoka Wish psychology." Not the relationship guide. A primer on how to make Madoka a girl living her Potential to the fullest as a human, not a Magi. I think we all should make some insightful posts about that in a day or two. Not certain how long until she asks us for it. It is a central pillar of the series characterization, after all - Why does Madoka Contract? That, we can safely answer IMHO. In immediate terms, Homura can block Kyuubey better if her own hivemind entity can give her tactical advice that is superior, and has a long baseline. Full Emotional abilities trumps Pioneer of the Stars in this setting!
 
Here's the differences between my vote and @Vebyast 's and my reasoning for the changes I want.

-[x] No outside magical girl would even know they exist.

vs

--[x] Madoka wouldn't need to directly encounter any outside meguca, while still significantly assisting our group.
--[x] As a result, she will be less likely to "wish to help", as she too often does

Reasoning:
1. There are many ways that Tokyo Meguca could find out about Madoka and Hitomi, such as Incubator influence, or any power based around gaining knowledge. Homura knows this, and may immediately counter with that, rendering this reasoning for why they're safe invalid.
2. Still mentioning Madoka's wish, although focusing on her self-esteem



-[x] You're meeting with Hitomi's mother this weekend, you should ask later if Homura wants to be there or add anything to the agenda.

vs

-[x] You asked the Incubator to stop mind-wiping "people who your friends care about".
--[x] You think that might be why Hitomi's mother "recently remembered" having encountered a Meguca in her childhood.
--[x] You're meeting with Hitomi's mother this weekend. Ask if Homura wants to be there or add anything to the agenda.

Reasoning: We're going to talk to Homura about this some time, and I don't think we particularly resolved this yet.

"Ah. Well, Hitomi, it turns out your mother knows about magical girls," you say.

The room goes dead silent. You savour it, soaking in the baffled stares. Even Homura looks flummoxed. She looks especially flummoxed, eyes fixed on you as you lie down next to Sayaka, Mami immediately following suit and snuggling up against your side.

Homura was obviously very confused here and since we have an explanation, we shouldn't put it in low priority.

-[x] Ask Homura if she's brought any Grief Seeds with her between loops.
vs
-[x] Not asking


Reasoning: I have no strong preference here. I just don't see the benefit in asking and can see the disadvantage (not huge but there) in bringing up the timelines she's abandoned. I could add it back in if people want it

-[x] Not talking about therapist yet (Instead just planning to bring it up with Hitomi's mom)
vs
-[x] Bring up the idea of bringing a therapist into the know, especially for people like Anri and Akiko.

Reasoning: No reason to put this off, and Homura's likely to just say "ok" it's a short thing that'll help her stay in the loop about our mind and day to day activities. If she doesn't just say "ok" she may have some insight or experience, which is always helpful

-[x] Ask her if there's anything she wants to know. Avoid the Potentialbomb, but otherwise answer fully and as well as you can.

vs

[x] Ask Homura if there's anything that she's wanted to know about you, about your memories, or about your knowledge of people, etc. and let her know that this is a standing offer
-[x] If she does, answer it fully, to the best of your ability, unless it would lead to Potentialbomb.

Mine's just a rewording. I have no strong preference

Finally, here's everything we completely agree on

[x] Continue talking about...
-[x] Warn Homura that Sayaka has most of the puzzle pieces to put together that Homura's a time traveler.
--[x] You don't foresee it causing any problems - if anything it'll help - but you don't want Homura to be completely blind-sided if it happens.
--[x] What does Homura want you to do if she asks about it? You won't share anything without permission, but if she does figure it out from this, it'd probably be best to make sure she has the story right.

-[x] You're meeting with Hitomi's mother this weekend. Ask if Homura wants to be there or add anything to the agenda.

-[x] Respecting Homura's fears and concerns, bring up Sayaka's comments about Madoka and Hitomi at the Model UN and suggest asking them to help analyze Tokyo's politics.
-[x] Madoka would be really helping, with a skill that's uniquely hers, and letting her do it would help her self-esteem.

-[x] Ask what happens when Witches rehatch. Do they drop a grief seed? Are they more powerful? Why isn't farming a single witch done?
-[x] If she has any grief seeds right now, offer to turn them into clear seeds

-[x] Ask her if there's anything she wants to know. Avoid the Potentialbomb, but otherwise answer fully and as well as you can.
[x] Leave timestop. Give Mami a big, spinning, silly hug.
-[x] Cut to voting to decide what to work on and what topics to discuss.
Adhoc vote count started by Neinet on Apr 8, 2019 at 2:15 PM, finished with 151181 posts and 10 votes.

  • [x] Warn Homura that Sayaka has most of the puzzle pieces to put together that Homura's a time traveler.
    -[x] You don't foresee it causing any problems - if anything it'll help - but you don't want Homura to be completely blind-sided if it happens.
    -[x] What does Homura want you to do if she asks about it? You won't share anything without permission, but if she does figure it out from this, it'd probably be best to make sure she has the story right.
    [x] Respecting Homura's fears and concerns, bring up Sayaka's comments about Madoka and Hitomi at the Model UN and suggest asking them to help analyze Tokyo's politics.
    -[x] No outside magical girl would even know they exist.
    -[x] Madoka would be really helping, with a skill that's uniquely hers, and letting her do it would help her self-esteem.
    [x] Lower-priority topics:
    -[x] You're meeting with Hitomi's mother this weekend, you should ask later if Homura wants to be there or add anything to the agenda.
    -[x] Ask Homura if she's brought any Grief Seeds with her between loops.
    -[x] Offer to turn all of her Grief Seeds into Clear Seeds.
    -[x] Ask her if there's anything she wants to know. Avoid the Potentialbomb, but otherwise answer fully and as well as you can.
    -[x] Ask what happens when Witches rehatch. Do they drop a grief seed? Are they more powerful? Why isn't farming a single witch done?
    [x] Leave timestop. Give Mami a big, spinning, silly hug.
    -[x] Cut to voting to decide what to work on and what topics to discuss.
    [x] Continue talking about...
    -[x] Warn Homura that Sayaka has most of the puzzle pieces to put together that Homura's a time traveler.
    --[x] You don't foresee it causing any problems - if anything it'll help - but you don't want Homura to be completely blind-sided if it happens.
    --[x] What does Homura want you to do if she asks about it? You won't share anything without permission, but if she does figure it out from this, it'd probably be best to make sure she has the story right.
    -[x] Ask what happens when Witches rehatch. Do they drop a grief seed? Are they more powerful? Why isn't farming a single witch done?
    -[x] If she has any grief seeds right now, offer to turn them into clear seeds
    -[x] You asked the Incubator to stop mind-wiping "people who your friends care about".
    --[x] You think that might be why Hitomi's mother "recently remembered" having encountered a Meguca in her childhood.
    --[x] You're meeting with Hitomi's mother this weekend. Ask if Homura wants to be there or add anything to the agenda.
    -[x] Bring up the idea of bringing a therapist into the know, especially for people like Anri and Akiko.
    -[x] Respecting Homura's fears and concerns, bring up Sayaka's comments about Madoka and Hitomi at the Model UN and suggest asking them to help analyze Tokyo's politics.
    -[x] Madoka wouldn't need to directly encounter any outside meguca, while still significantly assisting our group.
    -[x] Madoka would be really helping, with a skill that's uniquely hers, and letting her do it would help her self-esteem.
    --[x] As a result, she will be less likely to "wish to help", as she too often does
    [x] Ask Homura if there's anything that she's wanted to know about you, about your memories, or about your knowledge of people, etc. and let her know that this is a standing offer
    -[x] If she does, answer it fully, to the best of your ability, unless it would lead to Potentialbomb.
    [x] Leave timestop. Give Mami a big, spinning, silly hug.
    -[x] Cut to voting to decide what to work on and what topics to discuss.
    [x] Continue talking about...
    -[x] Sayaka has most of the puzzle pieces to put together that Homura's a time traveler.
    --[x] You won't share anything without permission, and you don't foresee Sayaka causing issues if she figures it out - you're just warning Homura so she isn't entirely blindsided if it happens.
    ---[x] If Sayaka does figure it out, it'll have her supporting Homura even more.
    -[x] Ask what happens when Witches rehatch. Do they drop a grief seed? Are they more powerful? Why isn't farming a single witch done?
    -[x] Ask Homura if she's ever brought grief seeds between loops in her inventory
    --[x] If she has some right now, offer to turn them into clear seeds at some point, since using them like ordinary seeds would mean eventually giving Kyuubey 'impossible' grief seeds.
    -[x] You asked the Incubator to stop mind-wiping "people who your friends care about".
    --[x] You think that might be why Hitomi's mother "recently remembered" having encountered a Puella in her childhood.
    [x] Madoka has low self esteem, and always wants to help. That's why she's at such high risk of contracting.
    -[x] Sayaka had an interesting insight based on Madoka and Hitomi's performance in the Model UN.
    -[x] Discuss involving Madoka and Hitomi in Tokyo political analysis. Respect Homura's fears and concerns.
    --[x] Madoka wouldn't need to directly encounter any outside magical girls, while still significantly assisting our group.
    --[x] By feeling like she's helping, she will feel less pressure to contract.
    [x] Ask Homura if there's anything that she's wanted to know.
    -[x] If she does, answer it fully, to the best of your ability, unless it would lead to Potentialbomb.
    [x] Leave timestop. Give Mami a big, spinning, silly hug.
    -[x] Cut to voting to decide what to work on and what topics to discuss.
 
Which I am still worried about. We've seen Madokami active, despite it probably not being possible for her to (not-)exist. She says so herself, in that "I wish to live" thing. If one mother can fuck around with reality independent of their nominally mortal selves, who's to say the other can't?

And we're making progress with Best Mom. Homucifer might, no, most likely will see that as being non-cooperative. Personally, I'm hoping Feathers is Dedolere, and that the theory that she is/we are just trying to Halp is right. Easier to deal with than our mom and best friend trying to murder her past self for the crime of actually winning, in spite of all odds.
first off, I don't think she killed her alternate selves, she was in the middle of a labyrinth that nobody she didn't invite could get into, second it was all witch symbology
also, I don't see any reason why akuma would be trying to stop us, if anything wouldn't she be trying to help us? her primary and sole goal is protecting madoka, we are managing to protect madoka
akuma isn't evil, she is suicidal to the max and willing to burn every bridge in order to protect (or what she sees as protecting) her friends
 
@Neinet
The point in asking about grief seeds moving between loops is to get more data points for possible differences between soul gems and grief seeds, as well as increase Homura's inventory of clear seeds if she can bring them between loops, thus giving her somewhat more peace-of-mind in thinking about how possible future loops because she would have absolutely ridiculous amounts of cleansing on-hand.
 
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I'm really not sure asking about past timeline Grief Seeds is a good idea, @Neinet .

Everything we know about how Homura's time travel works strongly suggests she can't carry Grief Seeds back in time - more specifically, that doing so would cause the soul of the magical girl to immediately witch out in the new timeline.

That could easily be a point of trauma for Homura, so... let's not.
 
Rule 3: When there is a thread banner telling you to be kind, this is not how you do it.
You mean everything you assume about her time travel. Amazing how you're all in favor of pointless bullshit "science" that amounts to little more than worthless masturbation over bigatons, but when it comes to actually gathering evidence to disprove a theory, whoa, look out, suddenly we're worried about anything else.
 
You mean everything you assume about her time travel.

What's to assume? Homura's Revenge mechanics are explicitly in play by Word of Firn, ergo souls in contact with Homura when she loops also experience mental/spiritual time travel.

People who are contracted stay contracted when they time travel (hence why Homura left the contracted Madoka behind in that story), so people who are witched out will stay witched out. (Since we know, from Rebellion, that a magical girl is 100% the same entity as her witch - and also because the core of a witch and a magical girl is identical in PMAS.)

How else could it work? I'd be willing to ask about it and confirm this stuff if it was risk free, but as things stand the logic is solid enough and the risk high enough that I don't think the risk is worth it.
 
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What's to assume? Homura's Revenge mechanics are explicitly in play by Word of Firn, ergo souls in contact with her when she loops also experience mental/spiritual time travel.

People who are contracted stay contracted when they time travel (hence why Homura left the contracted Madoka behind in that story), so people who are witched out will stay witched out. (Since we know, from Rebellion, that a magical girl is 100% the same entity as her witch - and also because the core of a witch and a magical girl is identical in PMAS.)
That is the theory which this stupidly fucking simple test would allow us to falsify or support.
 
It also brings up all sorts of Fridge Logic issues like "Why doesn't Homura have effectively infinite Grief Seeds by way of save-scumming? Why doesn't she just wipe out the entire Witch population of Mitakihara immediately? What does she do with filled up Grief Seeds, since she can't give them to Kyubey or else he would 100% Potentialbomb her ass?"

But, again, I'm perfectly willing to just straight up ask her about it. It's the sort of question where every possible answer is useful. If she IS able to time-clone Grief Seeds like this, I would want to ask those above questions.
 
It also brings up all sorts of Fridge Logic issues like "Why doesn't Homura have effectively infinite Grief Seeds by way of save-scumming? Why doesn't she just wipe out the entire Witch population of Mitakihara immediately? What does she do with filled up Grief Seeds, since she can't give them to Kyubey or else he would 100% Potentialbomb her ass?"

None of those strike me as actually big problems. Like I imagine she throws any grief seed surplus at Walpurgisnacht even if she can take some of them across loops. She's probably tried killing all the witches in some loops and it hasn't worked, that's the impression I got from "I'll kill all the witches myself if I have to" line in her badass montage in episode 10. And I always assumed she shoved grief seeds in her shield and never gave any to kyubey anyway.

But I see no reason not to ask her I guess?
 
None of those strike me as actually big problems. Like I imagine she throws any grief seed surplus at Walpurgisnacht even if she can take some of them across loops. She's probably tried killing all the witches in some loops and it hasn't worked, that's the impression I got from "I'll kill all the witches myself if I have to" line in her badass montage in episode 10. And I always assumed she shoved grief seeds in her shield and never gave any to kyubey anyway.

But I see no reason not to ask her I guess?

It at least grains against the implied narrative, to me. Like, if Homura knows she can save-scum Grief Seeds, considering how energy-efficient she is, she'd be able to make an upward climb in available energy.

Like, situations like Homura being unable to stop Charlotte in time to save Mami only works if Homura is also dealing with major magic-starvation and is conserving as tightly as she can.
 
It at least grains against the implied narrative, to me. Like, if Homura knows she can save-scum Grief Seeds, considering how energy-efficient she is, she'd be able to make an upward climb in available energy.

Like, situations like Homura being unable to stop Charlotte in time to save Mami only works if Homura is also dealing with major magic-starvation and is conserving as tightly as she can.

Didn't we conclude that one of Homura's major limitations is her mental unwillingness to just use a loop to prepare for future loops because that would mean abandoning *a* Madoka? That she has to try to win each and every loop?

If that's the case then she can't not throw everything she has at Walpurgisnacht, she can't save up because the extra grief seed might be what she needs to beat Walpurgisnacht.
 
Didn't we conclude that one of Homura's major limitations is her mental unwillingness to just use a loop to prepare for future loops because that would mean abandoning *a* Madoka? That she has to try to win each and every loop?

If that's the case then she can't not throw everything she has at Walpurgisnacht, she can't save up because the extra grief seed might be what she needs to beat Walpurgisnacht.

...Yea, except for all those loops where Madoka dies before Walpurgisnacht. Which means she gets to take her resources to the next loop over.
 
Let's go through the possibilities. There's probably more than I can think of, but here's the mentioned possibilities.

1. Grief Seeds vanish on timeloop

If this is the case, the conversation I bet will go something like this:

Sabrina: By the way, Homura, what happened when you brought Grief Seeds between loops?

Homura: They vanished.

The results: A slight negative impact on Homura's mood, and knowledge about Grief Seeds. I view this as the most likely outcome.​

2. Grief Seeds can be kept on loop

Sabrina: By the way, Homura, what happened when you brought Grief Seeds between loops?

Homura: They stay intact.

Sabrina: Do you have any filled ones in your shield then? If so, I can turn them into Clear Seeds.

2 possibilities here:

a.
Homura: I gave them to the Incubator.

The results: Homura will kick herself HARD for not keeping them at this point. She has her own self-esteem issues, and may see it as a failure to plan ahead.

b.
Homura: Yes. I have (X) amount of filled Grief Seeds

The results: Homura gets (X) Clear Seeds! I view this as unlikely, as she would likely have already asked us to refresh them at least.
3. Grief Seeds of current Magical Girls cause the girl to Witch immediately on looping

Sabrina: By the way, Homura, what happened when you brought Grief Seeds between loops?

Homura:...

Sabrina: Homura? I'm sorry if I...

Homura: They cause the girl to Witch.

The result: Very bad things. It probably would bring up a memory of her finding Sayaka's Witch, and Madoka mourning Sayaka and her family's death, likely in an earlier loop. I believe that this is very unlikely to be the case. However, if this was true, it would probably be important information regarding the mechanics of Souls.​


What are some other possibilities that people can think of of results of our action, or any other thoughts? Rating the various scenarios in what i believe the likelihood to be approximately (Not exactly or anything)

1. 90%

2a: 9%

2b: 0.5%

3: 0.5%

I don't want 2a to happen, which is part of why I'm wary about putting the part about Grief Seeds in, but if the knowledge confirmed about Grief Seeds is valuable enough, it may be worth the risk.

3. would be a disaster and wasn't something I considered until @Redshirt Army brought it up, but I don't view it as probable.
 
...Yea, except for all those loops where Madoka dies before Walpurgisnacht. Which means she gets to take her resources to the next loop over.

I mean, even without being able to take grief seeds back, we can equally ask why doesn't she travel the world emptying all the armories in Oriko Magica after Madoka dies so she never has to waste magic restocking in a proper loop again but I don't think she's psychologically equipped to carry on in a world where Madoka is dead.
 
Let's go through the possibilities. There's probably more than I can think of, but here's the mentioned possibilities.

1. Grief Seeds vanish on timeloop

If this is the case, the conversation I bet will go something like this:

Sabrina: By the way, Homura, what happened when you brought Grief Seeds between loops?

Homura: They vanished.

The results: A slight negative impact on Homura's mood, and knowledge about Grief Seeds. I view this as the most likely outcome.​

2. Grief Seeds can be kept on loop

Sabrina: By the way, Homura, what happened when you brought Grief Seeds between loops?

Homura: They stay intact.

Sabrina: Do you have any filled ones in your shield then? If so, I can turn them into Clear Seeds.

2 possibilities here:

a.
Homura: I gave them to the Incubator.

The results: Homura will kick herself HARD for not keeping them at this point. She has her own self-esteem issues, and may see it as a failure to plan ahead.

b.
Homura: Yes. I have (X) amount of filled Grief Seeds

The results: Homura gets (X) Clear Seeds! I view this as unlikely, as she would likely have already asked us to refresh them at least.
3. Grief Seeds of current Magical Girls cause the girl to Witch immediately on looping

Sabrina: By the way, Homura, what happened when you brought Grief Seeds between loops?

Homura:...

Sabrina: Homura? I'm sorry if I...

Homura: They cause the girl to Witch.

The result: Very bad things. It probably would bring up a memory of her finding Sayaka's Witch, and Madoka mourning Sayaka and her family's death, likely in an earlier loop. I believe that this is very unlikely to be the case. However, if this was true, it would probably be important information regarding the mechanics of Souls.​


What are some other possibilities that people can think of of results of our action, or any other thoughts? Rating the various scenarios in what i believe the likelihood to be approximately (Not exactly or anything)

1. 90%

2a: 9%

2b: 0.5%

3: 0.5%

I don't want 2a to happen, which is part of why I'm wary about putting the part about Grief Seeds in, but if the knowledge confirmed about Grief Seeds is valuable enough, it may be worth the risk.

3. would be a disaster and wasn't something I considered until @Redshirt Army brought it up, but I don't view it as probable.

Considering we know that souls overwrite each other, including a Soul Gem overwriting a non-contracted soul, why do you find 3 to be so unlikely?

I mean, even without being able to take grief seeds back, we can equally ask why doesn't she travel the world emptying all the armories in Oriko Magica after Madoka dies so she never has to waste magic restocking in a proper loop again but I don't think she's psychologically equipped to carry on in a world where Madoka is dead.

Blast, there's a huge difference between "Madoka dies early and so Homura auto-loops without blowing her load at Walpy" and "Madoka dies early and Homura sticks around to lootgrind."
 
Blast, there's a huge difference between "Madoka dies early and so Homura auto-loops without blowing her load at Walpy" and "Madoka dies early and Homura sticks around to lootgrind."

Oh, that. Well I'm fully convinced Homura is fully capable of blowing two or three loops worth of seeds on Walpurgisnacht without winning.

(I thought the loot grinding thing was what you were arguing for but with grief seeds)
 
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After thinking about it for a bit I think the reason why I valued 3 as that low was mostly because I didn't want it to be true, and so I let my bias affect my estimation. I should ask myself what my reasons are for things in more detail before posting them I think. :p

I also thought about it, and 1 and 3 do not necessarily exclude one another, and 3 would be the most likely explanation I can think of for 1, unless someone has some other explanation for it.

I think most people view it as no major harm in asking compared to the benefit of talking with Homura about what we think about, so I'll go with that and leave it in. I sort of overreacted in general to that concept compared to most I think, and it does make a lot of sense once I think about it.
 
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