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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Godwinson said:
[X] Try to reassure Homura.
-[X] Explain current limitations on Oriko's clairvoyance.
-[X] Clairvoyance is less dangerous of a power if she did mean to attack.
-[X] Explain wish rejection psychology as part of reason for believing Oriko has reformed.
-[X] "I'm here to help make sure things can be fixed, most of all to help you. Turning Oriko from an enemy into an ally, from a threat to an additional layer of protection, that seems like fixing things to me."
[X] "Speaking of things that can be fixed..." (Tone: Confidence)
-[X] Bring up Sayaka figuring out Homura caring specifically about Madoka, as well as her trusting Homura. Explain what you told Sayaka.
-[X] "Sayaka always is insightful about the weirdest stuff." Bring up her 'past life' joke from Homura's first day at school this/last loop.
-[X] This is a good thing here and now. Sayaka trusts you and Homura, knows that you know what's going on, and trusts both of you.
-[X] Bring up how you're going about witchbombing Sayaka, her improved thoughtfulness this time around. If Sayaka decides to learn, it will give her even more reason to trust Homura's judgement -- she was trying to save them both, after all.
--[X] If Sayaka handles witchbomb well, bring up discussing loopbombing Sayaka at a later time -- she will have every reason to trust the two of you, you can handle telling her the details, and most importantly, it will secure Sayaka as an ironclad-ally in the effort to protect Madoka from Kyuubey.
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Hm... I like a lot of this, especially the first segment that reassures Homura about Oriko, but I think this can be improved.

[X] Try to reassure Homura.
-[X] Explain current limitations on Oriko's clairvoyance.
-[X] Clairvoyance is less dangerous of a power if she did mean to attack.
-[X] Explain wish rejection psychology as part of reason for believing Oriko has reformed.
-[X] "I'm here to help make sure things can be fixed, most of all to help you. Turning Oriko from an enemy into an ally, from a threat to an additional layer of protection, that seems like fixing things to me."

Keeping this the same.

[X] "Speaking of things that can be fixed..." (Tone: Confidence)
-[X] Bring up Sayaka figuring out Homura caring specifically about Madoka, as well as her trusting Homura. Explain what you told Sayaka.
-[X] "Sayaka always is insightful about the weirdest stuff." Bring up her 'past life' joke from Homura's first day at school this/last loop.
-[X] This is a good thing here and now. Sayaka trusts you and Homura, knows that you know what's going on, and trusts both of you. She's willing to help keep Madoka well out of harms way.
-[X] Bring up how you're going about witchbombing Sayaka, her improved thoughtfulness this time around. If Sayaka decides to learn, it will give her even more reason to trust Homura's judgement -- she was trying to save them both, after all.

I think it's too soon to push for revealing the loopbomb, especially since we already brought up the topic yesterday. After the witchbomb, if Sayaka does indeed handle it well, we can raise the topic. And I think it's worth emphasizing the immediate benefits to Homura's mission that Sayaka brings to the table.

[X] From the vote in abeyance: Discuss involving Madoka and Hitomi in political planning.
-[X] Emphasize that Madoka shouldn't be in danger from just planning, and the reduced risk of feeling useless and wanting to contract.

I don't really want to spread this discussion over multiple additional votes unless it's actually necessary. Firn can cut this off if it ends up being too much, but I'd like to include it in the vote.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Hm... I like a lot of this, especially the first segment that reassures Homura about Oriko, but I think this can be improved.

[X] Try to reassure Homura.
-[X] Explain current limitations on Oriko's clairvoyance.
-[X] Clairvoyance is less dangerous of a power if she did mean to attack.
-[X] Explain wish rejection psychology as part of reason for believing Oriko has reformed.
-[X] "I'm here to help make sure things can be fixed, most of all to help you. Turning Oriko from an enemy into an ally, from a threat to an additional layer of protection, that seems like fixing things to me."

Keeping this the same.

[X] "Speaking of things that can be fixed..." (Tone: Confidence)
-[X] Bring up Sayaka figuring out Homura caring specifically about Madoka, as well as her trusting Homura. Explain what you told Sayaka.
-[X] "Sayaka always is insightful about the weirdest stuff." Bring up her 'past life' joke from Homura's first day at school this/last loop.
-[X] This is a good thing here and now. Sayaka trusts you and Homura, knows that you know what's going on, and trusts both of you. She's willing to help keep Madoka well out of harms way.
-[X] Bring up how you're going about witchbombing Sayaka, her improved thoughtfulness this time around. If Sayaka decides to learn, it will give her even more reason to trust Homura's judgement -- she was trying to save them both, after all.

I think it's too soon to push for revealing the loopbomb, especially since we already brought up the topic yesterday. After the witchbomb, if Sayaka does indeed handle it well, we can raise the topic. And I think it's worth emphasizing the immediate benefits to Homura's mission that Sayaka brings to the table.

[X] From the vote in abeyance: Discuss involving Madoka and Hitomi in political planning.
-[X] Emphasize that Madoka shouldn't be in danger from just planning, and the reduced risk of feeling useless and wanting to contract.

I don't really want to spread this discussion over multiple additional votes unless it's actually necessary. Firn can cut this off if it ends up being too much, but I'd like to include it in the vote.
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The point of bringing up the loopbomb is to indicate the direction and severity that we're aiming to fix things -- the point is to show Homura that we're making progress toward a goal, to give her something concrete as an anchor for trusting us. Turning Sayaka from a 'threat' into a diehard ally? That's big.

Often times we screw up with Homura by emphasizing feelings over plans and explaining matters. Homura is often left guessing why we're doing something, why we're trusting someone. Let's fix that.

(I did edit in the line about Sayaka being willing to help keep Madoka out of harm's way.)
 
Godwinson said:
The point of bringing up the loopbomb is to indicate the direction and severity that we're aiming to fix things -- the point is to show Homura that we're making progress toward a goal, to give her something concrete as an anchor for trusting us. Turning Sayaka from a 'threat' into a diehard ally? That's big.

Often times we screw up with Homura by emphasizing feelings over plans and explaining matters. Homura is often left guessing why we're doing something, why we're trusting someone. Let's fix that.
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Hm. I suppose I can accept that. Why aren't you mentioning involving Madoka and Hitomi with political planning? Is it just that you think it won't fit in the next update (in which case I'd like to see a "stay in timestop" line to make sure we don't autopilot out of it before the topic is raised) or do you have actual concerns against the idea (in which case I'd like to hear them)?
 
Redshirt Army said:
Hm. I suppose I can accept that. Why aren't you mentioning involving Madoka and Hitomi with political planning? Is it just that you think it won't fit in the next update (in which case I'd like to see a "stay in timestop" line to make sure we don't autopilot out of it before the topic is raised) or do you have actual concerns against the idea (in which case I'd like to hear them)?
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Ah, the former, so I'll edit that in.

I've also edited in "Point out the effect lichbombing Sayaka had on her behavior after contracting."

...I'm also editing in a point about when Oriko's wish rejection started. Specifically, it was very shortly after this:

Firnagzen said:
Oriko looks back at you, pain in her eyes. "For what it's worth, I apologize, too."
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Sabrina chooses the stupidest possible way to introduce a topic, as expected.

Godwinson said:
-[X] Explain wish rejection psychology as part of reason for believing Oriko has reformed.
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This is insufficient.

[X] Walk Homura through wish magic psychology, particularly rejection, so she doesn't have to take your argument on faith and can apply the reasoning herself.
-[x] Case studies: Mami's ribbons and unending pain from the lost friends she can't forget, Sayaka getting super teamwork powers, Kirika's antimagic in this timeline, Kyouko, Anri, Hijiri, Yuki's magic being "friendly", Yuma getting healing, your own control issues.
-[x] Oriko started out wanting control and death. Her power obliged. She gave up those motives and lost that power. This power is driven by different motives, namely contentment with reality and a desire to enjoy it in the moment.

Homura needs this knowledge. It is one of the things we should teach her to make her better equipped to address PMMM herself instead of depending on us. It's the same reason we explained Sayaka to her. So go deep, provide concrete examples (in the process expanding her understanding of other magical girls that she'll associate with), and show her how to use the tool to build more accurate models.

[X] Work through the technical considerations. This power is not proactive. For defending Madoka you actually prefer actionable info about the real world rather than hypotheticals and vague warnings.

Then we end the vote there so that we can address any remaining problems instead of rushing forward and leaving her with a damaged view of Oriko or trying to rush through four entire goddamn conversations at once and fucking up due to inattention. This information was what we needed to convince Homura that Oriko was on our side. We've already squandered that opportunity, but at least we can put in the effort and care to at least make it net neutral instead of an outright negative.
 
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However impolitely phrased, vebyast does have a point -- we should take the time and do this properly like we should have originally and then every time since then.

[X] "Okay, I... I really should have thought to do this before now."
[X] Try to reassure Homura by explaining why we believe what we believe. Be thorough, be detailed, provide examples, logos not pathos.
-[X] Detail to Homura wish-magic psychology, particularly wish rejection, so she doesn't have to take your argument on faith and can apply the reasoning herself.
--[X] Case studies:
---[X] Mami's magic is based around ties to life, after she wished to live. As a result, she can't forget the pain caused by severed bonds.
---[X] Sayaka wished to be useful, so that she could be part of a team. Her powers are great given our support to build up, but would have been useless if she was solo.
---[X] Kyouko, Anri, Hijiri, Yuki's magic being "friendly", Yuma getting healing, your own control issues.
---[X] Kirika wished to help Oriko, and received the power to turn off powers. That was what convinced Oriko that she didn't need to rely on her visions of the future.
---[X] Oriko started out wanting control and her own death, due to her family issues. She wished to know the meaning of her life, but the only meaning she could find was in suicidal martyrdom, which her power obliged.
----[X] She gave up those motives and lost that power. This power is driven by different motives, namely satisfaction with reality and a desire to enjoy it in the moment.
----[X] Oriko's wish rejection started right after you apologized for threatening to witch Kirika, and Oriko apologized for her own actions. Earnest regret for one's wish is the surest form of rejection. She lost her precognition, and suffered as she thought she must.
-[X] Work through the technical considerations. This power is not proactive. For defending Madoka you actually prefer actionable info about the real world rather than hypotheticals and vague warnings. Clairvoyance is less dangerous of a power even if she did mean to attack.
-[X] You're open to discussing additional safety measures too, but that discussion should happen with Sayaka and Hitomi's input.
-[X] You're here to help make sure things can be fixed, most of all to help Homura. Turning Oriko from an enemy into an ally, from a threat to an additional layer of protection, that seems like fixing things.
[X] Remain in timestop to continue conversation.
 
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[X] Godwinson

One thing I've noticed is the drastic tone shift whenever we enter or leave timestop with Homura. I mean, I get why (Homura's an incredibly damaged person, these conversations are meant to address that damage, etc), it's just a little whiplash-y to go from

Firnagzen said:
"You two are disgustingly cute," Sayaka observes.
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to

Firnagzen said:
Homura stops breathing.

She freezes like a statue, eyes widening.
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and back again, when we exit timestop. (See: the Russia raid earlier today.)
 
Shadowhisker said:
One thing I've noticed is the drastic tone shift... ...just a little whiplash-y
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Part of our awesome potential, not our Magic. I have confidence in Sabrina using her grit. Not an issue, for our friends and family.


There is a good set of ideas from you all! Instead of dealing with Oriko after her Madoka choices, we can definitely go through some Oriko evaluation. @Vebast is all in for cognitive approach, count me in.

I want all our vote from before to carry forward, we simply have to do this now. Sayaka friendship and Madoka engagement talks still required.
Let me toss these into the hopper?

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Subtly include Homura's role in changing Oriko.

I'd like her to say it herself. Not in any way to exaggerate it, but make Homura acknowledge her own agency.
She always could do with a bump there.
Sabrina did things that Homura did not like then, but Homura was able to think it out and decide this differently without time pressure. Oriko was only brought to this new state because she also understood Homura was in on this. Homura always had the veto power. She still does.
Godwinson said:
-[X] You're here to help make sure things can be fixed, most of all to help Homura. Turning Oriko from an enemy into an ally, from a threat to an additional layer of protection, that seems like fixing things.
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Therefore, let me ask you to rethink this?

We are family, in the better sense, so don't 'take over' from her. We know that is a concern she has, her view is tilted a certain way. Be the good partner. Let Homura devise observations or circumstances she would like to see, or say something else. Rebut (Very Lightly) if she wants to leave it all to Sabrina. It is never wrong to hope.


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Mention Kirika, as in Oriko couldn't do any of this without accepting her partner. View it as normal. At at the worst moments Kirika was carrying Oriko through. Oriko was very positive about it in retrospect.
... There are many lessons I think we want Homura to learn. But again, be gentle.
AuraTwilight said:
[x] Godwinson

Yea, Homura needs fairly exact plans or she loses her shit.
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Can we go over our Oriko logistics for the next couple of days with her? Of course we both remember it. I think it makes a good cool-down talk before Sayaka. Homura is very prone to document and OCD things, probably lets her blow off stress, in addition to being part of her strength...

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Do we want to tiptoe into "don't reject your own wish" task yet? At some point we have to get her defense stat up. Moe!Homura had it right, for my greater feeling. Her current attitudes are mostly symptoms, not life choices, and we will set her feelings free one day. Rooting out her nascent self destructive side will take time. Everyone must live for that to happen, so we have a practical concern to measure this by. She needs her magic for now, and so does everyone else. It would be good to develop a general theory of how we deal with this issue in the OOC future. Even if we don't act in this turn, we can settle our thoughts by a good conversation.


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Do we want to continue with the Sayaka part of this vote?


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DB_Explorer said:
We really need Sayaka and Kyoko to hook up just so we have more ammo to fire back with.
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One reason has already been delivered. Kyosuke will handle most of this for us. ::Gendopose::
IMHO, if Sayaka doesn't take a delaying action, such as learning -and mastering- an instrument to professionally accompany Kyosuke, her relationship is going to turn puzzling pretty quick. does he actually care about a real relationship, outside of obtaining the social comfort himself?
Maybe you have met someone like this IRL? Please consider.
Hitomi would probably point out the illness of this if we don't? He might just be awful partner material, so the only way to hide that would be if Sayaka catered to things he is invested in. In canon, it was a one-girl relationship. We should ask Sayaka what is going on between the two now, to see if he is doing it right, or slowly making a mess we will have to mop up.
 
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