Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

redzonejoe said:

Removing her from action or otherwise rendering her unable to defend her city will cause mass deaths of innocents, new contracts and likely territory wars.

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...Clear seeds. So no. Sabrina was made to be able to flatly refute this class of argument. The entire point of this quest is that we don't need to be and shouldn't be the HARD GIRL MAKING HARD DECISIONS.

I do think that it's worth adjusting the vote to account for the "have" vs "have" ambiguity.

[x] She won't release the wraiths now, fine. You've no intention to ask her to lose her city. But would she still keep souls trapped in the future, if it truly became no longer necessary?
[x] You're not going to invade her privacy and you don't want to, but you can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
[x] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
[x] And if any of her shades are someone she wants to save, or restore... you won't ask questions, and you'll provide all the assistance she could want with that.
[x] Does that deal sound like what she needs?

Vebyast said:

...Clear seeds. So no. Sabrina was made to be able to flatly refute this class of argument. The entire point of this quest is that we don't need to be and shouldn't be the HARD GIRL MAKING HARD DECISIONS.

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If we gem or kill Rionna, we're going to be responsible for what happens to Edinburgh in her absence. And if the situation degenerates and results in significant casualties, that's going to be on us. I, for one, don't expect preventing this to be particularly easy, and expecting to solve the problem by flying in and handing out some Clear Seeds to local meguca in return for them playing nice strikes me as hopelessly naive. We're going to be starting on the empire building quest early if we do this, make no mistake.

Roomba said:

If we gem or kill Rionna, we're going to be responsible for what happens to Edinburgh in her absence. And if the situation degenerates and results in significant casualties, that's going to be on us. I, for one, don't expect preventing this to be particularly easy, and expecting to solve the problem by flying in and handing out some Clear Seeds to local meguca in return for them playing nice strikes me as hopelessly naive. We're going to be starting on the empire building quest early if we do this, make no mistake.

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If it does come to pass that Rionna cannot be dissuaded from her current course of action, then abandoning our moral responsibility to stop her because it would be inconvenient is moral cowardice of the highest possible order.

I'm one of the strongest proponents for continuing to negotiate with Rionna. That's because I still see it as the path that leads to the greatest good for everyone. I don't see that position shifting without very good reason.

But if Rionna does have to be stopped... then we'll take full responsibility for Edinburgh, yes. And that won't be a reason to avoid doing what we must, but rather an impetus to do it well and thoroughly, and ensure that that city, too, is well cared for - as are all of Rionna's wraiths. As is Rionna's sister, who from what we hypothesize is an innocent in all this.

Cease undermining the path of kindness with your talk of ambivalence.

Firnagzen said:

"Let me make a quick enchantment to ensure privacy," you say, inverting Grief from your otherworldly storage into your hands. Enchanted Grief, and it's a good thing you prepared this earlier. "Uh, it's going to feel kind of Witchy."

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How much enchanted Grief do we still have for a chibi?


I'm with the voter block that want to offer refreshments, talk, and demonstrate feeding positive feelings to Aurora.

If Rionna wants to leave, let her. Without a timestop-trip to Edinburgh we have no idea how things are in the city.


@Vebyast, I agree with @Roomba here - handing out clear seeds isn't a solution. Newly contracted magical girls would just be robbed, invading MGs aren't the type we want to give unlimited magic.

Nachtigall said:

How much enchanted Grief do we still have for a chibi?


I'm with the voter block that want to offer refreshments, talk, and demonstrate feeding positive feelings to Aurora.

If Rionna wants to leave, let her. Without a timestop-trip to Edinburgh we have no idea how things are in the city.


@Vebyast, I agree with @Roomba here - handing out clear seeds isn't a solution. Newly contracted magical girls would just be robbed, invading MGs aren't the type we want to give unlimited magic.

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Still somewhat managable.

We get Homura. Timestop hypersonic vehicle to Edinburgh. And beat the shit out of the invaders.

The Narrator said:

That's pretty close to my own feelings on the matter. Being in this thread isn't much fun to me and hasn't been for a while. More like an unpleasant responsibility that I don't get paid for. When I see it pop up in my Unread Threads queue, I feel not excitement but dread at what new arguments might be breaking out. The days the thread was locked were like a vacation. But I like this story and I'm afraid of what might happen if I turn my back on it.

In that way, it's rather more like actual democracy than I'd care for.

This arc with Rionna didn't cause this, as frustrating as it's been. This feeling has been growing for a long time. But this situation does seem almost custom-made to bring out the worst in us, and this feeling has been constantly at the forefront since she arrived.

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Heh.

I enjoy the whole situation. I mean, yeah, it frustrates me to no end and I actually felt less stressed out when I was climbing a 14-meter tall tree and jumping from it a month ago than during the argument that got the thread locked.

But. Look at it like this: we're bunch of people who gathered around to resolve the many problems of Puella Magi Madoka Magica without Madoka contracting.

I mean, I'm assuming that's a goal of all people here and I feel pretty safe saying that no one disagrees with that goal, at least "resolving PMMM problems" part, so I just remind myself that no, people aren't here to shit on each other and their opinions, they want the same thing I do, and you know, with that in mind even arguments become enjoyable.

Bah. Too much meta, back to the Soulguca.

Kaizuki said:

Obviously it wasn't written as a personal attack against me. It completely succeeded in being an attack against everyone who enjoys the quest. As a member of that group who has gone through far too much to tolerate that, I took personal offense to it. You accuse me of being melodramatic, but you know nothing of what I've been through, nor have you ever spoken with me in any depth.

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Your horrible tragedies does not entitle you to make false accusations and then harass a poster that calls you out on it.

You are not the only one to suffer horrible tragedies. Most of my loved ones are gone, many of them this year, including younger cousins and my little brother. I am being eaten alive from the inside out. I am facing unfair discriminizatition in the workplace because no one wants to carry me on their insurance, despite my health not affecting my performance.

My Mother is devastated by my little brother's death, especially since he died in agony, on Mother's Day.

And that's just this year, and I've left out many details I don't feel like sharing. At the start of this year, despite still being eaten alive, I had hope in the future and generally saw the universe as a positive place with negative flaws that could be repaired.

Now I see the universe as a trial by fire for daring to have the hubris that medicine, logic, or hope will prevail.

Onmur said:

[X] Remain calm, be patient. You can outlast Riona's stubbornness.
-[X] Alternate pressing main points with other topics.

[X] Offer and get refreshments (without leaving the bubble).

[X] Explain and reaffirm your goals:
-[X] To help Magical Girls, to break the system.
-[X] Your intentions when Wishing.
-[X] People can do horrible things, when forced...
--[X] Your goal isn't to take away Riona's power, but to give her a chance to do better.


[X] Points to press:
-[X] Riona won't achieve her goal by refusing help.
--[X] If this really matters to her, she'll need to make compromises.
-[X] Her shades are actual Souls. What she's doing is inhumane.
--[X] You won't begrudge her keeping voluntarily given Souls.
--[X] You'd gladly help if she wanted to revive them.
--[X] If she wants them for protection, there's alternatives.
-[X] We.
--[X] Can.
--[X] Help.

[X] Other topics:
-[X] What does your Soul look like?
-[X] How do her powers work?
-[X] Wish rejection: describe Oriko's symptoms.
-[X] De-Witching.
--[X] Let Riona examine Aurora.
--[X] Explain your experiments so far.

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I think that it's not time yet to "settle in for the long term", and it's probably not as risk-free as it sounds. If nothing else, Riona's bluntness makes it nearly impossible for us to filibuster - she burns through topics too fast and she's more than willing to cut off discussion and say "we've already covered that, next topic". All of these topics are things we've more or less already covered, especially since at this point she's probably going to refuse share more information about her power.

Redshirt Army said:

[x] She won't give it up now, fine. But would she keep those souls trapped, if it truly became no longer necessary?
[x] You're not going to invade her privacy and you don't want to, but you can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
[x] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
[x] But. But. If any of her shades are someone she wanted to save... you won't ask questions, and you'll provide all the assistance she could want with that.
[x] Does that deal sound like what she needs?

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Rewriting for clarity.

[x] Plan:
-[x] She'd be unwilling to give up her sister's shade and you think she might be equally unwilling to reveal that she has it.
-[x] You'll make a stab in the dark about her power's origin and use it as grounds for giving her a way out.
-[x] Make an offer that would let her keep her sister's shade without talking about it.
-[x] Note that, if she is holding her sister's shade, she's likely denying the ethical implications of her actions out of self-defense.

[x] She won't release her wraiths now, fine. And you won't deny her her home or safety. But would she really keep those souls trapped if it became unnecessary?
[x] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
[x] But. But. You can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
[x] If there are any shades that she needs to keep, and she doesn't want to explain who they are or why she needs them, you won't ask questions. You'll just assume she's trying to save or restore someone and help however you can. It can't be harder than dewitching, right?
[x] Does that sound like what she needs?


edit: ...Blast, this is what I get when I don't refresh after finishing up writing a new vote.

Redshirt Army said:

[x] She won't release the wraiths now, fine. You've no intention to ask her to lose her city. But would she still keep souls trapped in the future, if it truly became no longer necessary?
[x] You're not going to invade her privacy and you don't want to, but you can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
[x] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
[x] And if any of her shades are someone she wants to save, or restore... you won't ask questions, and you'll provide all the assistance she could want with that.
[x] Does that deal sound like what she needs?

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edit edit: Incorporated these changes.

Kaizuki said:

If anything, the things I said were colossal understatements, because dredging things up to their full extent is just purposelessly hurting myself. I've cried tears of relief over being able to smile and laugh at this quest once again. What have you known, to judge me so?

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Alright, you seem more emotionally invested in this quest that I thought possible. That was a serious miscalculation on my part. I personally care more about not kicking a kitten that this argument, so I'll just apologize for my disrespect and let it go.



Back on topic,
[X] Onmur

@Vebyast

I'm fine with the section at the beginning clarifying our intentions, but it might be worth addressing that what Rionna "has" might be her sister and Edinburgh, not all the captured souls.

A slight wording tweak should be sufficient.

[X] Vebyast

Redshirt Army said:

If it does come to pass that Rionna cannot be dissuaded from her current course of action, then abandoning our moral responsibility to stop her because it would be inconvenient is moral cowardice of the highest possible order.

I'm one of the strongest proponents for continuing to negotiate with Rionna. That's because I still see it as the path that leads to the greatest good for everyone. I don't see that position shifting without very good reason.

But if Rionna does have to be stopped... then we'll take full responsibility for Edinburgh, yes. And that won't be a reason to avoid doing what we must, but rather an impetus to do it well and thoroughly, and ensure that that city, too, is well cared for - as are all of Rionna's wraiths. As is Rionna's sister, who from what we hypothesize is an innocent in all this.

Cease undermining the path of kindness with your talk of ambivalence.

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You're misunderstanding my position. I'm not arguing that we should let her go because taking her down is inconvenient. Rather, I'm pointing out that we will own the consequences of doing this, and should therefore, as you say, "do it well and thoroughly". And that it's not just some minor background detail that can be handled by handing out Clear Seeds to the locals.

You'll find me consistently in opposition to attacking Rionna before she leaves the privacy sphere, not because I object to gemming her in principle, but because it's a bad time and place for it. I was also against the idea of putting off dealing with her until after Walpy is dead because it would be a convenient excuse to do nothing under the pretense of waiting for a better opportunity. I honestly don't want to just let her go, and even if I did, it's pretty clear to me that this thread won't go for it. If nothing else, it would be massively out of character for Sabrina, and that actually matters a lot to me, believe it or not.

Unless what you're accusing me of is cold-hearted pragmatism? Guilty as charged, in that case.

Redshirt Army said:

I'm fine with the section at the beginning clarifying our intentions, but it might be worth addressing that what Rionna "has" might be her sister and Edinburgh, not all the captured souls.

A slight wording tweak should be sufficient.

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Edited, particularly to take into account the edits you made earlier that I'd missed. Does that look better?

Redshirt Army said:

abandoning our moral responsibility to stop her because it would be inconvenient is moral cowardice of the highest possible order.

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'Inconvenient' is having to explain our actions to Nadia and the meguca community at large. 'Inconvenient' is lowered reputation and having to go that extra step further in getting girls to trust us and our clear seeds.

Worrying about the lives of innocents on the other side of the world isn't inconvenient, it's moral responsibility. We will either have to establish a semi-permanent presence in Edinburgh, or live with lots of blood on our hands.

Conjured Blade said:

Still somewhat managable.

We get Homura. Timestop hypersonic vehicle to Edinburgh. And beat the shit out of the invaders.

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That's a pretty simplistic view. Which invaders, the first wave of nomads who move in on an empty city, or the second wave that arrives slightly later and gets rebuffed? How do we keep track of when they arrive, or do we make it a daily ritual?

What about the witch population, or new contracts? How do we keep these in line while operating out of japan?

If we're timestop hopping around the world to cull witches and hand out clear seeds like candy, why stop at Edinburgh? Sure, New York isn't our responsibility, but the suffering there might be arguably worse. If we have a moral responsibility to put a stop to Riona's misdeeds, would the same not apply elsewhere? The only difference is that one's right in front of us, and the other us less than a second away.

I don't think we're ready to conquer the world just yet. I don't think we're ready to take care of Edinburgh in Riona's absence. I don't think that letting her go home and handle her shit until we are ready is a greater evil than neglect or carelessness, or being forced to police the world when we're not ready for that and will inevitably make mistakes.

redzonejoe said:

'Inconvenient' is having to explain our actions to Nadia and the meguca community at large. 'Inconvenient' is lowered reputation and having to go that extra step further in getting girls to trust us and our clear seeds.

Worrying about the lives of innocents on the other side of the world isn't inconvenient, it's moral responsibility. We will either have to establish a semi-permanent presence in Edinburgh, or live with lots of blood on our hands.

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Quit being hard.

"Turned out she had dozens of tortured souls trapped in her power and was taking more all the time. And she arrived in Mitakihara intending to add my soul to the list and did her damn level best to provoke a fight when she learned I wasn't the fake grief spreaders that she was expecting to find but still had a useful power. Oh, and then there were the souls of the non-magical adults she'd taken. Yeaaaaaaah, I'd have loved it if she'd been a bit less reprehensible, but she was a problem and needed to be stopped."

As for the rest - fucking clear seeds. Done. No more fights. No territory issues. There won't be a "second wave" any more than there's going to be a second wave in Sendai or Kazamino or Asunaro.

I'd want detailed intel about the situation on the ground in Edinburgh before we do anything irreversible, rather than just assuming that the consequences can be handwaved by throwing resources at it. Two Iraq Wars is enough for one lifetime.

Vebyast said:

Quit being hard.

"Turned out she had dozens of tortured souls trapped in her power and was taking more all the time. And she arrived in Mitakihara intending to add my soul to the list and did her damn level best to provoke a fight when she learned I wasn't the fake grief spreaders that she was expecting to find but still had a useful power. Oh, and then there were the souls of the non-magical adults she'd taken. Yeaaaaaaah, I'd have loved it if she'd been a bit less reprehensible, but she was a problem and needed to be stopped."

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I literally just described that issue as merely inconvenient. Redshirt said inconvenience isn't a good reason, I offered an example of inconvenience to juxtapose what I see as a serious concern. So yeah, this whole section of quote isn't really arguing against me.

Also lol if you think everybody would buy that, no questions asked. Kyouko won't even buy us being friendly.

Vebyast said:

As for the rest - fucking clear seeds. Done. No more fights. No territory issues. There won't be a "second wave" any more than there's going to be a second wave in Sendai or Kazamino or Asunaro.

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I mean... Maybe? Are we going to have a full-on Edinburgh arc then, meeting the locals and laying down the law? Are we gonna keep in touch to make sure grouchy vets and sneaky dickbags aren't gonna ruin things for everybody else?

And again, at the point where we're projecting our strength and law to the opposite side of the globe, what's our reasoning for going only so far and no further? If we're moved to action on moral grounds here and now, why would our morals not compel us to global conquest?

Vebyast said:

As for the rest - fucking clear seeds. Done. No more fights. No territory issues. There won't be a "second wave" any more than there's going to be a second wave in Sendai or Kazamino or Asunaro.

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But... the problems in Sendai and Asunaro were not solvable by handing out Clear Seeds. Sendai required a huge fight with civilian casualties and we're very fortunate that the University group aren't vindictive, or else it'd constantly be a quagmire of escalating tensions with periodic eruptions of random violence. Asunaro is not even solved to begin with. We have Anri in custody, at considerable expense, but Hijiri is still at large and it's not clear what she's going to do next.

In fact, the problems in Asunaro escalated when we started handing out Clear Seeds, rather than being solved. Putting it out there prompted Hijiri and Anri to steal it, forcing us to get further involved.

redzonejoe said:

If we're moved to action on moral grounds here and now, why would our morals not compel us to global conquest?

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Funny you ask. They do. Why do you think we're making jokes about being a terrible empress and the Sayaklone army? Why do you think we're going all the way out to Tokyo to diplomance their little polity? Why do you think we asked Nadia about international threats and now have the Iowa Group and the San Shi Hui on our to-do list? Why do you think we told Nadia to send us girls that could help us build a nation?

Roomba said:

But... the problems in Sendai and Asunaro were not solvable by handing out Clear Seeds. Sendai required a huge fight with civilian casualties and we're very fortunate that the University group aren't vindictive, or else it'd constantly be a quagmire of escalating tensions with periodic eruptions of random violence. Asunaro is not even solved to begin with. We have Anri in custody, at considerable expense, but Hijiri is still at large and it's not clear what she's going to do next.

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...

Read what I wrote. There will not be a second wave of people "coming in to claim those territories". Sendai and Asunaro and shit aren't having any follow-on territory problems. The first-wave problems were just people being shit; once you deal with the people that are shit you just have territory problems. And guess what, clear seeds absolutely do solve territory problems. None of the situations we've intervened in have had waves of people coming in to take them over after we got dealt with the people that were shit. If we deliver clear seeds to Edinburgh there will be no territory problems there. And since that's the only problem that an empty Edinburgh would have, guess what, clear seeds fucking solve it.

If Edinburgh was being held by a traumatized malevolent superguca that refused to participate in peaceful diplomacy, then clear seeds wouldn't trivially solve the problem. But since that won't be the case once we're done with Rionna, literally the only thing left is that Edinburgh needs some magical girls to live there that aren't assholes. And, funny thing, it turns out that most magical girls aren't unrecoverable assholes and get much better once they're not fighting for cleansing, and I see no reason why english girls would be different.

Vebyast said:

and I see no reason why english girls would be different.

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I dunno, what with Tart Magica... Maybe the British Isles in MegucaWorld are just cursed.

Vebyast said:

...

Read what I wrote. There will not be a second save of people "coming in to claim those territories". Sendai and Asunaro and shit weren't caused by empty territory. They were caused by people being shit. If you're just dealing with people that want territory, clear seeds absolutely do solve that problem. None of the territories we've delivered clear seeds to have had territory problems. If we deliver clear seeds to Edinburgh there will be no territory problems there. And since that's the only problem that an empty Edinburgh would have, guess what, clear seeds fucking solve it.

If Edinburgh was being held by a traumatized malevolent superguca that refused to participate in peaceful diplomacy, then clear seeds wouldn't trivially solve the problem. But since that won't be the case once we're done with Rionna, literally the only thing left is that Edinburgh needs some magical girls to live there that aren't assholes. And, funny thing, it turns out that most magical girls aren't unrecoverable assholes and get much better once they're not fighting for cleansing, and I see no reason why english girls would be different.

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And as Asunaro and Sendai demonstrate, it only really takes one malicious actor to create a huge shitstorm that we need to clean up after. Hell, we might end up replacing fights over territory with fights over Clear Seeds. These aren't unsolvable problems, and in fact we're going to need to solve them in Japan as well as our influence continues to grow, but they're also not trivial. We don't even know what the meguca political situation is over in the UK. We could very well set off a huge conflict by accident.

In theory, we might get lucky, everyone in the region is really nice and reasonable, we leave them some Clear Seeds and never have to intervene there again. But I wouldn't count on it.

Vebyast said:

And since that's the only problem that an empty Edinburgh would have, guess what, clear seeds fucking solve it.

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That's a pretty huge assumption you're making. You have no idea what the situation is in Edinburgh. You have no idea if the shades will go berserk when Rionna's gone or if there's something dangerous there that they're containing or if they're using their powers to keep her sister alive. You're not bothering to learn anything about the situation on the ground and just assuming that everything will fall into place if we take out one bad guy and then throw resources at it.

Bush and Cheney thought that same thing about Iraq.

Roomba said:

fights over Clear Seeds

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This fight has been had a hundred times and given much more detailed treatment than it'll get here. Let's just move on.

[X] Onmur

For now.