Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Kai Merah said:

Apparently, every single grief controller she heard of before us was a fake manipulating the girls around them. So yeah, she probably came to kill us, but now we've shown we're genuine, she's skipping that and figuring she might as well head home since there's nothing to smite around here.

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I rather doubt she started looking for grief controllers on the premise that they were fake, that's just what she found once she got there. Whatever reason led to her looking in the first place is still in play.

argentorum said:

She could easily have a controller move her grief into a grief seed while she sleep. She could also, among other things, have a girl who obviates the need for sleep. She has plenty of powers. Any one of them could solve this problem.

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And what about the problem of having to hunt a witch every four hours?

I'm going to randomly create my own vote which I expect to be promptly ignored and forgotten!


[X] Sigh, relax your visible tension, maybe slump a little bit.
-[X] "You're not very easy to work with."

[X] Explain and demonstrate your power
-[X] Pull grief from your soul gem, float it around, make a few shapes. Perhaps a flute that starts softly playing music?
-[X] Pull a little bit of grief from a grief seed, just to prove its possible
--[X] Explain that floating grief is easy to manage, especially given use of a 4th dimension of space. If the cloud ever gets to be a bit too much you can just shove it down Kyubey's backhole. We can demonstrate this afterwards if she'd like.

[X] After power explanation, move on to explaining your goals.
-[X] Emphasize your desire for magical girls around the world to be able to live normal lives
--[X] Ultimately, you want to break Kyubey's wretched system of grief and suffering, and replace it with something better
---[X] Some enchanted artefact that can absorb grief, or the proliferation of clear seeds or something that'll ensure magical girls can live long and peaceful lives, witches can be slowly but surely removed as a threat, and maybe Kyubey can even still accumulate grief for his anti-entropy efforts.

[X] Now Riona knows what you can do and what your goals are. What's her place going to be in things?
-[X] She can choose to help Sabrina with her powers, with her experience and very different perspective
-[X] She can choose to go home in peace and deal with her own shit for however long it takes for Sabrina to fix things and bring infinite cleansings all the way to Ireland
-[X] She can, for whatever reason, oppose this. Preferably with logical argument rather than sudden hostilities. Maaaybe don't mention this? Let it go unsaid unless she comments.
--[X] Whatever her immediate choices, know that enslaved and possibly suffering shades of the dead won't be tolerated forever. That kind of shit belongs in Kyubey's system, not ours.

Updating my vote for the Nadia thing.


[x] You flew half way around the world to find a real Grief cleanser, and you're just going to leave? No. You came here looking for something. Well, so am I. Let's deal.
[x] I'm trying to figure out how to turn a witch back into a person. The Clear Seed is the first step. They have thousands of times the capacity of regular Grief Seeds. One of these can keep a magical girl clean for centuries. And eventually we hope to enchant something that will do the job without needing souls at all. No more witchouts. No more used Seeds going into Kyubey's back for him to do god-knows-what to. No more need for girls to put themselves through this hell of hunting and fighting to survive. We can all just live like real people.
[x] When we no longer need Seeds to survive, we can start helping them, too. We've already gotten some small results from injecting positive emotions into the Clear Seed. Your soul powers might be the key to making this back into a Soul Gem.
[x] You came here looking for a charlatan, a dragon to slay, but I'm not your enemy. I want to help people. Ask Nadia Bennouna, she'll confirm that I'm for real.
[x] You fought the false Grief Cleansers because they were witching girls out. We don't want anyone to witchout either. We can make a world where no one does, ever again.
[x] Please. Help us.

Here's another thought:

Instead of trying to make friends with her, just try to get useful information from her.

Skip the diplomacy, try for data.

Ask her if her soul senses allow her to know what happens when a magical girl witches out. Does her soul transform into the witch? Does it get destroyed by the witch? Is it still there, but suppressed by the witch?

The only obviously useful thing Rionna has to contribute to de-witching efforts right now is the esoteric soul-sensing she hypothetically has. She might be able to at least answer, right now, if it's remotely plausible that a grief seed still contains the magical girl, or if that's a dead end.

Even if she's not interested in playing nice, she might answer technical questions.

All of this just goes to reinforce that we have no idea what we're dealing with and should not act rashly

And yes, i include antagonizing her in that

Tally incoming

Several people are forgetting that she's not here to deal and has no investment in our goals

The one thing she wants from us is the one thing we can't/aren't willing to give

She has no reason to accept any offer we make and every reason to go home and maintain her territory

kinigget said:

Several people are forgetting that she's not here to deal and has no investment in our goals

The one thing she wants from us is the one thing we can't/aren't willing to give

She has no reason to accept any offer we make and every reason to go home and maintain her territory

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I find it hard to believe that she would have no interest in being rid of Grief Seed scarcity.


I'm going to bed. Work tonight. Suspect that this thread will be a few dozen pages longer when I wake up.

kinigget said:

Several people are forgetting that she's not here to deal and has no investment in our goals

The one thing she wants from us is the one thing we can't/aren't willing to give

She has no reason to accept any offer we make and every reason to go home and maintain her territory

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If she's not here to deal, why the hell are you arguing we should capitulate?

Clear seed in return for no FURTHER soul stealing?

We know she needs upkeep to maintain her power. We give her freedom from hunting, and ask she don't do it to anyone else.

The offer is at least a start. She has no idea what a clear seed can do.

kinigget said:

Several people are forgetting that she's not here to deal and has no investment in our goals

The one thing she wants from us is the one thing we can't/aren't willing to give

She has no reason to accept any offer we make and every reason to go home and maintain her territory

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We're hoping she's be willing to help with de-witching because it's the GOOD thing to do. What do we lose by asking for her help?

kinigget said:

Several people are forgetting that she's not here to deal and has no investment in our goals

The one thing she wants from us is the one thing we can't/aren't willing to give

She has no reason to accept any offer we make and every reason to go home and maintain her territory

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You said we can't/aren't willing to give, but I'm willing to try power copying and setting her up as our insurance policy as idealistic Xanatos Gambits. You?

I'll agree that we lose nothing by trying. I'm just cautioning agaknst reprisals if she declines

Also we have no stakes to capitulate on, the fact that we are negoitiaging at all was outside her expectations and as such she has made no demands beyond "don't judge me"

Or are you so intractable that you see even letting her go as a failure?

kinigget said:

I'll agree that we lose nothing by trying. I'm just cautioning agaknst reprisals if she declines

Also we have no stakes to capitulate on, the fact that we are negoitiaging at all was outside her expectations and as such she has made no demands beyond "don't judge me"

Or are you so intractable that you see even letting her go as a failure?

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If she leaves and goes back to ripping souls out of people's bodies, yea, that IS a fucking failure, Kinigget.

AuraTwilight said:

Stop fucking comparing Riona to Kyouko, they're on entirely different levels.

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They're on different levels because they are on different metrics of power and experiences. The point being that, we give our friends a pass on the bad shit they did because we know why they did it. And yet right now, people don't seem to be concerned with the fact that Riona also has reasons to do the things she does. Okay, maybe Kyouko wouldn't full soul enslave people, but stop trying to make it so that Farming Familiars is some how so much more okay than Riona's powers. Arguing about shades of evil is not helpful here.

(This next part isn't directed at you, so much as the entire "Riona is morally reprehensible" position)
Once again, our friends are in order: Perhaps the most Morally upright Gucca ever (Mami), A literal white knight (Sayaka), and Godoka... and then a Familar Farmer (Kyouko), a thought policing mass murderer (Homura), another thought policing murderer cum terrorist (Oriko), and an enforcer for the previous murderer who's totally down for leg breaking (Best Buddy). We haven't judged them for their sins. Why are we so gods dammed obsessed with judging Riona? Yes her thing may be worse, but not by much.

But Muh slavery is not an argument. By that definition every magical girl ever is a slaver, because Grief seeds are people too. The entire system is horrendous, just because people are complicit with the system does not mean they are responsible for the system.

Skelm said:

And what about the problem of having to hunt a witch every four hours?

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Does she have shades that can hunt for witches that she is able to maintain half way across the world?

I'll take "Obvious Applications of Riona's Power" for four hundred, please.

argentorum said:

They're on different levels because they are on different metrics of power and experiences. The point being that, we give our friends a pass on the bad shit they did because we know why they did it. And yet right now, people don't seem to be concerned with the fact that Riona also has reasons to do the things she does. Okay, maybe Kyouko wouldn't full soul enslave people, but stop trying to make it so that Farming Familiars is some how so much more okay than Riona's powers. Arguing about shades of evil is not helpful here.

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I mean, personally, I do feel like "Refused to do the heroic thing at the time" to be morally acceptable than what Riona's doing. Again, Kyouko isn't killing people so much as failing to save them, and that's still bad, but it comes from a place of starvation crisis and something lots of Magical Girls are forced to do. She doesn't take glee in it.

(This next part isn't directed at you, so much as the entire "Riona is morally reprehensible" position)
Once again, our friends are in order: Perhaps the most Morally upright Gucca ever (Mami), A literal white knight (Sayaka), and Godoka... and then a Familar Farmer (Kyouko), a thought policing mass murderer (Homura), another thought policing murderer cum terrorist (Oriko), and an enforcer for the previous murderer who's totally down for leg breaking (Best Buddy). We haven't judged them for their sins. Why are we so gods dammed obsessed with judging Riona? Yes her thing may be worse, but not by much.

But Muh slavery is not an argument. By that definition every magical girl ever is a slaver, because Grief seeds are people too. The entire system is horrendous, just because people are complicit with the system does not mean they are responsible for the system.

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How in the actual, outright fuck is Homura a mass murderer or the thought police? What the fuck are you going on about?

[X] redzonejoe

This is a good plan actually. Especially since the usual seem to be a bit...

Anyway. What I would recommend changing.

[] Sigh, relax your visible tension, maybe slump a little bit.
-[] "You're not very easy to work with."
This is a little confrontational, and we haven't exactly been a bed of roses ourselves.
-[] "I have not however been making it easy for you."

[] Explain and demonstrate your power
-[] Pull grief from your soul gem, float it around, make a few shapes. Perhaps a flute that starts softly playing music?
-[] Pull a little bit of grief from a grief seed, just to prove its possible
--[] Explain that floating grief is easy to manage, especially given use of a 4th dimension of space. If the cloud ever gets to be a bit too much you can just shove it down Kyubey's backhole. We can demonstrate this afterwards if she'd like.
We might want to explain feeding... Hope? To hildegarde? We have had some success.
We also have a number of other magical girls working with us, one of whom appears to be an actual scientist.
Also explaining that this is the reason we agreed to meet with her and want her help.
-[] Show her the grief seed you fed hope. Let her examine it.
-[] Briefly go over the capabilities of our allies (except homura). Especially Sayaka.
-[] Explain that this is why you came to meet her. You want her knowledge and power of souls.
Oh also explain why you believe this is possible.

[] After power explanation, move on to explaining your goals.
-[] Emphasize your desire for magical girls around the world to be able to live normal lives
--[] Ultimately, you want to break Kyubey's wretched system of grief and suffering, and replace it with something better
---[] Some enchanted artefact that can absorb grief, or the proliferation of clear seeds or something that'll ensure magical girls can live long and peaceful lives, witches can be slowly but surely removed as a threat, and maybe Kyubey can even still accumulate grief for his anti-entropy efforts.
This is good, but tone down the flowery talk a bit? She is unlikely to appreciate it.

[] What's her place going to be in things?
-[] She can choose to help Sabrina with her powers, with her experience and very different perspective
-[] She can choose to go home in peace and deal with her own shit for however long it takes for Sabrina to fix things and bring infinite cleansings all the way to Ireland
-[] She can, for whatever reason, oppose this. Preferably with logical argument rather than sudden hostilities. Maaaybe don't mention this? Let it go unsaid unless she comments.
--[] Whatever her immediate choices, know that enslaved and possibly suffering shades of the dead won't be tolerated forever. That kind of shit belongs in Kyubey's system, not ours.
This is extremely confrontational and demanding. You should cut most of this. "Whats her place to be" is incredibly dictatorial and a little super villainy.

I would say cut it and say.
[] Now Riona knows what you can do and what your goals are. Now what does she want.

@Onmur some evidence would go a long way towards helping those statements.

Riona most likely came to Mitakihara assuming that there was another grief controller she could add to her collection and now that she's seen Sabrina she's not sure what to do about her, but is also not trusting enough to actually make any deals. Since we can't magically build up trust and she isn't really willing to listen to us, I doubt we'll be able to achieve much when it comes to deals we'd find acceptable.

Looks like she doesnt NEED a Clear seed

And Rionna is a meguca in dire need of (morality) saving

........meh

Eh.. Let her leave, just exchange numbers i guess

AuraTwilight said:

How in the actual, outright fuck is Homura a mass murderer or the thought police? What the fuck are you going on about?

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She's outright admitted to going through several timelines where she executed Oriko and Kirika, for the crime of attempting to kill (or successfully killing) Madoka in timelines previous to those. That's the thought crime. That O & K are alive right now does not mean that Homura did not murder them (and was therefore willing to accept a timeline where she had murdered them in order to save Madoka). I believe it was also implied that those two are not the only people she's killed in the past because it was convenient for her at the time to remove them.

edit: so maybe mass murderer is a bit much, but she's also been through a lot of loops.

As for the first part, look, I'm not saying that what Riona has done isn't worse than what Kyouko has done. I'm saying that they are both terrible, and trying to create a scale of absolute morality isn't helpful to any of our goals.

AuraTwilight said:

How in the actual, outright fuck is Homura a mass murderer or the thought police? What the fuck are you going on about?

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She went around a few loops killing Oriko and Kirika again and again and again until she stopped. And that's what we know of her by her own admission.
( e: I might be mistaken about Kirika. Gotta look for a relevant quote. )

I mean, you can argue the severity of this, but you can't argue its factuality.

AuraTwilight said:

How in the actual, outright fuck is Homura a mass murderer or the thought police? What the fuck are you going on about?

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She repeatedly killed Oriko just because she might become a future threat. This is her official, confirmed characterization for the purposes of PMAS.

If you all really feel that Homura and Kyouko are guilty of murder and worse, your reaction should not be "lurk until someone really awful comes along and then de-lurk to derail the thread #bothsides". Instead, you should have spoken up at the beginning and pointed out that you believed that our friends were all horrible people and that Sabrina's goals were all incoherent because we were working with people that undermined our goals simply by existing. Be more like Sereg. Speak your mind whenever you have a problem, so it can be dealt with properly and promptly and not during an important vote.

Vebyast said:

If you all really feel that Homura and Kyouko are guilty of murder and worse, your reaction should not be "lurk until someone really awful comes along and then de-lurk to derail the thread #bothsides". Instead, you should have spoken up at the beginning and pointed out that you believed that our friends were all horrible people and that Sabrina's goals were all incoherent because we were working with people that undermined our goals simply by existing. Be more like Sereg.

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Alright, leaving everything else aside
I just can't overlook
Being more like Sereg how?