Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Vebyast said:

I still think that we should have approached them separately. The things that play well with Sayaka make Homura think we've been turned, and the things that play well with Homura make Sayaka think we're being an asshole.

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We still can. There's a few parts of the discussion that we can lead in fairly naturally as "things we wanted to discuss" that don't necessarily have to tie into straight up discussing releasing Oriko's house arrest. Then we can bring up the specifics with Sayaka and Homura seperately.

As a skeleton, something like:

[ ] You've been thinking about how to deal with troublemakers like Oriko or Airi in the future. Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't want to start making decrees.
-[ ] And with a likely influx of newcomers, some punishment options other then imprisonment should be considered, for lesser grades of offence. Community service? Financial recompensation?
-[ ] In a lot of cases, the acting out will be caused by the psychological pressures and stresses of meguca life. You'd like to try to rehabilitate whichever of the offenders you can.

[ ] It's likely that you'll need increased monitoring of the area in the future, too. You've got some ideas with Mami's magic, but direct scouting by Sayaka's clones would also be helpful.
-[ ] You could deputize some of the incomers newcomers if they prove to be trustworthy and willing to help?

[ ] Eventually, you'd like to involve more adults with the Shizukis' help. Legal experts, therapists...
-[ ] And at some point, if Sayaka's okay with it, the Mikis.

---

This sets up a useful and agreed upon frame of mind for then discussing Oriko and Kirika with Homura and Sayaka individually - they'll understand the reasoning our questions about the confinement are rooted in, and it should help keep the discussion more grounded and less emotional.

Well, we've just shipped off Anri, another prisoner, over to Fukushima. Why not use that as a segue? That Sabrina is trying to figure out what to do about O&K in the longer term, and solicits feedback from her friends. Especially Sayaka, who is a victim of Oriko's crime.

I would caution against being too forceful and trying to get Sayaka and Homura to agree to a change in O&K's status during this conversation alone. It won't work, and will likely backfire.

@Redshirt Army's proposal is roughly what I had in mind.

Vebyast said:

I still think that we should have approached them separately. The things that play well with Sayaka make Homura think we've been turned, and the things that play well with Homura make Sayaka think we're being an asshole.

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The "Divide and conquer" approach rubs me the wrong way. Part of it is that it essentially involves making two deals each behind the back of the other, and part of it is that it makes it harder to coordinate solutions. (And from the other side, even if Homura and Sayaka team up to naysay us together, they're going to be raising their points together. Which isn't enough on it's own, no, but combine that with all the prior points and I'm a bit okay with us having a harder time if it means them cooperating.)

Beyond that, vote looks like it's going a bit too hard and fast in the conversation. Perhaps If the assumptions are right about everything it may have a chance to work, but any misconception is going to cause major issues and things get emotionally fraught fast. As it stands the super-sympathy approach is not one I have much faith in. Homura's mindset, at least, makes me feel it will give her the sense that we're being swayed by the enemy.

I like the idea of sounding things out and discussion them in general sense much more.

Redshirt Army said:

We still can. There's a few parts of the discussion that we can lead in fairly naturally as "things we wanted to discuss" that don't necessarily have to tie into straight up discussing releasing Oriko's house arrest. Then we can bring up the specifics with Sayaka and Homura seperately.

As a skeleton, something like:

[ ] You've been thinking about how to deal with troublemakers like Oriko or Airi in the future. Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't want to start making decrees.
-[ ] And with a likely influx of newcomers, some punishment options other then imprisonment should be considered, for lesser grades of offence. Community service? Financial recompensation?
-[ ] In a lot of cases, the acting out will be caused by the psychological pressures and stresses of meguca life. You'd like to try to rehabilitate whichever of the offenders you can.

[ ] It's likely that you'll need increased monitoring of the area in the future, too. You've got some ideas with Mami's magic, but direct scouting by Sayaka's clones would also be helpful.
-[ ] You could deputize some of the incomers newcomers if they prove to be trustworthy and willing to help?

[ ] Eventually, you'd like to involve more adults with the Shizukis' help. Legal experts, therapists...
-[ ] And at some point, if Sayaka's okay with it, the Mikis.

---

This sets up a useful and agreed upon frame of mind for then discussing Oriko and Kirika with Homura and Sayaka individually - they'll understand the reasoning our questions about the confinement are rooted in, and it should help keep the discussion more grounded and less emotional.

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You're right that we want to discuss that all independently, and we prooooobably want to discuss it without Oriko's context coloring Homura and Sayaka's viewpoints. So lead with that, then wrap around to Oriko. I'd vote for that.

[x] You've been thinking about how to deal with troublemakers in the future. Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't want to start making decrees.
-[x] With all the incoming gucas, maybe some punishment options other then imprisonment, for lesser grades of offence? Community service? Financial recompensation?
-[x] That kind of acting out is often caused by psychological issues, which aren't rare amongst megucas. You'd like to try to rehabilitate whoever you can. So... therapy?

[x] You'll need increased monitoring of Mitakihara, too. You've got some ideas for Mami's magic, but direct scouting by Sayaka's clones would also be helpful.
-[x] Deputize some of the incomers newcomers if they're trustworthy and willing to help?

[x] Eventually, you'd like to involve more adults with the Shizukis' help. Legal experts, therapists...
-[x] And at some point, if Sayaka's okay with it, the Mikis.

Cleaned it up a bit. 149 words.

[x] Redshirt Army

Redshirt Army said:

[x] You've been thinking about how to deal with troublemakers in the future. Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't want to start making decrees.

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We might want to motivate this:

[] You've been thinking about how to deal with troublemakers in the future. H+S have the strongest opinions, for various reasons, so you want their opinion.
-[] Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't want to start making decrees.

[x] Redshirt Army

I definitely agree on the needing to make the Oriko-specific discussions separately, and think this is a good way of broaching related practical issues that are necessary anyway, in order to not just blindside them with the talk.

That said, part of me feels like this is too transparently a segue to an O&K discussion somehow, although that may just be because I'm reading it in the context in which it's being created. Is there any way to word it so the phrasing directs the mind elsewhere first, without seeming forced?

Meh, that's really just a nitpicky concern of mine, might just be reading too far into it. It's felt like it's last week's Monday since last week's Monday over here. Social Interpretation meter low. }=o/

[x] You've been thinking about how to deal with troublemakers in the future, and want their opinions.
-[x] Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't want to start making decrees.
-[x] With an influx of gucas, maybe some punishments other then imprisonment, for lesser offences? Community service? Financial recompensation?
-[x] Crimes are very often caused by psychological issues, which aren't rare amongst megucas. You'd like to try to rehabilitate whoever you can. So... therapy?

[x] You'll need increased monitoring of Mitakihara, too. You've got some ideas for Mami's magic, but direct scouting by Sayaka's clones would also be helpful.
-[x] Deputize some of the incomers newcomers if they're trustworthy and willing to help?

[x] Eventually, you'd like to involve more adults with the Shizukis' help. Legal experts, therapists...
-[x] And at some point, if Sayaka's okay with it, the Mikis.

148 words.

Honestly, my impression here is that this vote is a little too abstract, if anything. I don't think we should outright avoid talking about Oriko here, it's why we're having the discussion after all, but my original point was just that we shouldn't go gung ho all the way either.

So I'm going to propose starting with taking a general approach with examples. Iowa's been a subject of the day, as have troublemakers in Asunaro, and refugees, and Oriko too.

Combining all that together both allows a avoids over- or under-emphasizing any one part, and also kinda sums up the day in general. Also an opportunity to share discussion about Iowa group from Fukushima, for whatever that's worth.

Redshirt Army said:

-[x] And at some point, if Sayaka's okay with it, the Mikis.

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Although I'm proposing changes, I should note that with the vote as stands, this looks like an artifact. The purpose of bring up the Mikis was because they were harmed by Oriko. Parental involvement in general is a whole other kettle of fish. Not one we can't talk about, but I think it needs to be tied into the fold a bit better.

I kind of don't agree with this. :/

We're basically going to needle Homu and Sayaka about O&K. I'd rather not stall or try to hide it behind a wall of talks about an hypothetical meguca justice system. That would be nice to talk about, but... later. If they still want to.

By all means, were Oriko's mental well being not at play, we really should just tell O&K to stuff it and not needle Homu and Sayaka about this.

Maybe this would be a better approach were we talking with Kyouko, but I just don't want to be dishonest about this with Homu and Sayaka.


[X] Apologize for ruining the moment.
[X] Share you want to talk about creating a justice/law/policing system for meguca. A fair one based on rehabilitation, not punishment.
-[X] But that would be stalling right now.

[X] You need to talk about what to do with O&K.
-[X] What do they want to happen? At lenght?
-[X] Talk about problems with the House Arrest:
--[X] Its foundation; psychological harm; long term viability.
--[X] Hiding the truth from the Mikis and the Kures. Oriko confessing her crime to them.
-[X] What you feel needs to happen.
--[X] Oriko's at a turning point. Whether she ends up good or bad depends on our actions.
-[X] You're asking them for permission to expand O&K's freedom.
-[X] Compromise. Any progress is good.
--[X] Surveillance measures.
---[X] Optional: Sayaklone guard?
--[X] Optional: Relocation (under Yuki?).

[x] Onmur

Yeah, especially after we specifically promised Oriko that we would work to get their restrictions lightened as soon as possible and offered her the socialguca position, not making this discussion about Oriko would be detrimental to our relationship with Oriko and Kirika.

That said, I think Redshirt Army's vote might make a good transition into the Oriko conversation? We can have two major focuses of the conversation? We were already planning on talking about the big "judicial system and therapy" points, but I think it makes more sense to start with that point and expand it before using it to transition into a discussion about Oriko.

Omniatrix said:

That said, I think Redshirt Army's vote might make a good transition into the Oriko conversation?

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That, uh, is the plan. I fully intend on discussing Oriko with Homura and Sayaka afterwards. This is just priming them and spelling out where we're coming from for them.

Quick and dirty build, tracking towards the original vote:

[X] Apologize for ruining the moment. This could get heavy.

[X] Goals, in order:
-[X] Keep the discussion productive and positive, if serious.
-[X] Discuss ways matters of meguca justice.
-[X] Find out, and engage with, Homura and Sayaka thoughts.
-[X] Push for rehabilitation.
-[X] Focus on exploring the topics. True decision-making can wait a vote.

[X] Potential Topics:
- [X] With so many refugees with their own problems, we could have more events like Asunaro. How do we handle that?
-- [X] Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't like making decrees.
-- [X] Can we ask refugees to lend aid in solving these problems.
- [X] How to treat out-of-town troublemakers, like Iowa.
- [X] The elephant in the room. Oriko.
-- [X] House arrest doesn't strike you as viable in the long term. What should the end goals be? Restitution?
-- [X] Worries over possible psychological harm from confinement.
-- [X] You'd like to talk alternatives: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices? Sayaklones?
- [X] Non-guca involvement in guca justice:
-- [X] Hiring professional help with the Shizuki's or other's aid. Legal experts and therapists both sound useful.
-- [X] Family. How to treat affected family of both victims and perpetrators.

200 exactly.

Maybe my mental model of Homura isn't very accurate, but it's hard for me to imagine her answer to "asking for permission to expand O&K's freedom" to be anything but "No". Worse, she might also consider Sabrina to be compromised and become even more suspicious of Oriko.

[x] Redshirt Army

[x] Redshirt Army

[x] The Phoenixian

Headed in the right direction, I reckon, because one way or another I think at least something of a segue into the O&K topic is needed, and I think this pins it all together reasonably?

Re: Homura and asking for any variation of "permission to expand O&K's freedom": @Roomba : I feel like this is why we need to approach any part of this discussion with Homura from a perspective of utility and effectiveness. That way, it's not arguing "expand O&K's freedom", it's arguing "give us more ability to use O&K as long-term controllable assets, which has the byproduct of giving them more mobility, in exchange for more direct supervision (i.e. Sayaklones or tracking or whatever we're leaning towards by this point)". Different ways to unpack essentially the same argument, basically

edited for spelling

Onmur said:

But that would be stalling right now.

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At the very least you could say "with that in mind" instead of completely dropping it.

@The Phoenixian

Here's my take on your approach.

[X] Apologize - This could get heavy.

[X] Goals, in order:
-[X] Keep the discussion productive and positive, if serious.
-[X] Discuss approaches to meguca justice.
-[X] Respect Homura and Sayaka's thoughts.
-[X] Push for rehabilitation.
-[X] Just explore ideas. Don't push to decide yet.

[X] Topics:
-[X] With refugees incoming with their own problems, we could have repeats of Asunaro. How should we handle that?
-- [X] Can we involve trusted refugees in monitoring other newcomers?
-[X] Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't want to impose decrees.
--[X] A lot of the issues have grounding in mental health issues. Therapy?
- [X] Mundane involvement in magical justice:
-- [X] Hiring professional help with the Shizuki's or other's aid. Legal experts and therapists both sound useful.
-- [X] Family. How to treat affected family of both victims and perpetrators.
- [X] The elephant in the room. Oriko.
-- [X] House arrest probably isn't viable forever. What should the end goal be? Restitution?
-- [X] Concerns over possible psychological harm from confinement.
-- [X] No changes yet, and you'll discuss further before anything happens, but to raise some ideas: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices? Sayaklones?

• I shuffled the order around a bit. It makes sense to cover Oriko last, imo - not least of which because if we don't, whatever's after it will probably get cut off with the reaction vote next update.
• I cut the "how to handle out of town troublemakers" part entirely, since on the face of it it mostly seems self-evident in a way policing isn't, and a more in depth discussion really deserves a talk to itself.
• I added a earlier "therapy" line separate from the later mention of therapists as useful mundane assets, to lay extra groundwork for it.
• Majorly toned down the intensity of suggestion in the last lines. We need to keep Sayaka and Homura on-side in the discussion, or they'll reject our reasoning out of hand.
• Minor phrasing changes for flow or wordcount. Current count is 197 words.

Torgamous said:

At the very least you could say "with that in mind" instead of completely dropping it.

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But I wanted to completely drop it. >_>

[X] Apologize - This could get heavy.

[X] Goals, in order:
-[X] Keep the discussion productive and positive, if serious.
-[X] Discuss approaches to meguca justice.
-[X] Respect Homura and Sayaka's thoughts.
-[X] Push for rehabilitation.
-[X] Just explore ideas. Don't push to decide yet.

[X] Topics:
-[X] With refugees incoming with their own problems, we could have repeats of Asunaro. How should we handle that?
-- [X] Can we involve trusted refugees to help keep order?
-[X] Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't want to impose decrees.
--[X] A lot of the issues have grounding in mental health issues. Therapy?
- [X] Mundane involvement in magical justice:
-- [X] Hiring professional help with the Shizuki's or other's aid. Legal experts and therapists both sound useful.
-- [X] Family. How to treat affected family of both victims and perpetrators.
- [X] The elephant in the room. Oriko.
-- [X] House arrest probably isn't viable forever. What should the end goal be? Restitution?
-- [X] Concerns over possible psychological harm from confinement.
-- [X] No changes yet, and you'll discuss further before anything happens, but to raise some ideas: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices? Sayaklones?

Want to switch "monitoring other newcomers" to "help keeping order" since the idea isn't even limited to just refugees, but setting up a system in general. (Also, having people monitoring their fellows has some bad connotations)

That one nitpick aside, everything looks good.

[x] The Phoenixian

Compromise!

[x] The Phoenixian

[X] The Phoenixian

Just because I want it to somehow get to Kirika some day if we call Oriko fat.

- [X] The elephant in the room. Oriko.

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[X] The Phoenixian