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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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That went better than expected.

My defeatist take on this is that we should ask if they're willing to let O&K help against Walpurgisnacht, and if so, then table the matter until then. Give Sayaka time to actually think about what she wants from Oriko, hopefully when she's less angry about it. Maybe point out how easy it was to talk about justice in the abstract compared to when it affected her personally, and how she didn't object to humane treatment of Anri, despite the latter having done objectively worse things than Oriko.

I don't think we can actually change Homura's mind without a win against Walpy.
 
Higure said:
Prrrrreeetty sure it's possible. Not saying she WILL, but we need to recall she isn't just our friend/mother, also being an emotionally unstable teenager with a history of mercilessly eliminating threats. Deciding to clean house after the biggest threat is gone is...not likely, with good influence on our part, but far more likely if we lose her trust.
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then dont lose her trust, dont cause her any more mental harm then needed.
 
I don't think we should propose any action this turn. We should immediately break after telling their story so we can get their reactions and plan our approach based on that.

[] Look after Homura.
-[] Ask if she wants to talk privately.
-[] Ask what she wants to do.

[] Reassure Homura and Sayaka you won't do anything without their consent.
-[] Continue with their permission.

[] Explain why you feel the need for this. Oriko's motives.
-[] Explain her story
--[] Suicidal feelings, a Wish made under such feelings.
--[] The root of those feelings. The betrayal from Oriko's father, family, and the people. -[X] How your actions will impact her.

[] BREAK. No suggestions on further action until the thread sees how this lands
 
OK, current status:

"I want her to have no burned my house down," Sayaka hisses, eyes burning fierce blue.

"I know," you say. "But I can't change that. What would you accept? If they did community service under our guidance? If they paid you back?"

"How the hell is that practical?" Sayaka snaps, sweeping her hand out wide. "Suddenly money just drops magically on me?"

"Community service?" you ask. "They can do plenty of good work as extra hands when we need to leave the city."

"So like they've already been doing?" Sayaka asks, folding her arms.

...

Sayaka is angry. Not furious, perhaps, but... angry. Righteous, seething... There are plenty of adjectives to use, but little enough to encompass the anger worn openly on her face and balled fists.

And Homura.

Homura is unreadable, expression perfectly blank but for the corded tension of her muscles - and she's not moving, sitting statue-still and rigidly upright, staring down at the table in front of her. She's closed off, held tight under her own self-control.
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Sayaka is angry, but actually considering things. Still angry.

Homura needs to be looked after, ASAP.



[] Vote tone:
-[] Apologectic. We're being unfair and pushy.
-[] Reassuring. Homura and Sayaka come first.
--[Q] (After Mami, of course).

[] Look after Homura.
-[] Ask if she wants to talk privately.
-[] Ask what she wants to do.

[] Continue with their permission.

[] Explain why you feel the need for this. Oriko's motives.
-[] Explain her story
--[] Suicidal feelings, a Wish made under such feelings.
--[] The root of those feelings. The betrayal from Oriko's father, family, and the people.
--[] How your actions will impact her.


Throwing this out... and thinking about better phrasing for Oriko's part, and yes, OK, cutting the end part.
 
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blast flame said:
[] Look after Homura.
-[] Ask if she wants to talk privately.
-[] Ask what she wants to do.

[] Reassure Homura and Sayaka you won't do anything without their consent.
-[] Continue with their permission.

[] Explain why you feel the need for this. Oriko's motives.
-[] Explain her story
--[] Suicidal feelings, a Wish made under such feelings.
--[] The root of those feelings. The betrayal from Oriko's father, family, and the people. -[X] How your actions will impact her.

[] BREAK. No suggestions on further action until the thread sees how this lands
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Yeah, I think this is probably the best approach, but I do think we should add what Roomba mentioned, pointing out how easy it was to treat Anri humanely even though she did objectively worse things, is more inclined to continue doing them, and has less justification for her actions than O&K.

But then we also need to address Homura's concerns as well, and I don't think we want to come off as just convincing Sayaka. That might read to her as us trying to use everyone else to pressure her, and might damage her trust further.

I also really worry that the initial conversation came off as less sincere than it was intended to. It is a real discussion we need to have, separate from the Oriko issue, and I don't want Sayaka and Homura to write it off as if it was just a ploy to lead into the O&K stuff. We need to continue that conversation, even if we don't continue the other one. I just don't see how that will work based on how the discussion is going.
 
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We should apologize to Homura for bringing up something painful and ask to cleanse her gem.

So maybe something like this?

Obviously incomplete.

[] Sayaka
-[] Apologize how you brought this topic up. How it came off as. You hate upsetting her. Both you and Homura.

[] Ask to talk privately with Homura
-[] Assure Homura nothing is going to happen unless she gives the okay. Apologize for bringing up something so painful.
-[] Ask to cleanse her gem.
-[] Well, it's true you want to rehabilitate Oriko. You agree she should be punished for what she did. But at end of the day, it's true you want to show Oriko she has a life and future after all of this. Oriko doesn't believe she has one.
 
You guys must be masochists for doing this with both Homura and Sayaka.:V Speaking with them separately would have been challenging enough.

On a separate matter, have you guys told everyone that Oriko foresaw her disappearance/death coming soon? If Sabrina screws up or doesn't get some serious help, Oriko won't even last to Walpurgisnacht.
 
Hmmm... tinkering with how to explain our feelings about Oriko.

[] Vote tone:
-[] Apologetic. We're being unfair and pushy.
-[] Reassuring. Homura and Sayaka come first.

[] Look after Homura.
-[] Ask if she wants to talk privately.
-[] Ask what she wants to do.

[] Continue with their permission.

[] Explain why you're doing this. You feel...
-[] You understand Oriko's problems and motives.
-[] You can truly help.
[] Expand:
-[] Oriko's story:
--[] Her love for her father, his betrayal, and that of her family and the people.
--[] Suicidal tendencies, Wish.
--[] Our responsibilty as the only one in a position to care and help.
--[] We want Oriko to make up for her actions, not just be punished for them.

:/

[Q] Call Oriko an elephant.
 
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Gonna say right now: Oriko's story doesn't matter. Homura doesn't care about Oriko's story, Sayaka doesn't care about Oriko's story, and they're never going to care about Oriko's story.

What we need to do is to appeal to Sayaka's justice and Homura's paranoia. Our point earlier about establishing justice was valid we need to tell them that it wasn't an underhanded way of slipping Oriko and Kirika under the rug; we respect their intelligence too much for dirty tricks like that. We tell them that Oriko and Kirika are, ultimately, just one of what will eventually be thousands of examples and if Sayaka truly cares about justice like she says she does, she has to be willing see that justice is delivered, not just by kicking in teeth and smashing soul-gems, but by sticking through the lasting consequences and either becoming or establishing the arbiters who will decide the kind of punishment to apply to these actions.

How does the law normally deal with non-magical acts of arson that result in no deaths or permanent injuries? We don't necessarily need to use that statute, but it could serve as an excellent reference to shape meguca law.

Edit: Also, now is not the time for placating words and apologetic tones; we need to be hard on this stance, not about Oriko and Kirika, but about justice overall. This is too important to just get bulldozed over by the these two's emotions and personal feelings on the matter.
 
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For that matter, what even is a good policy for precog motivated crime? We may be precogproof but our time is finite. So if we drop everything for any precog that comes to us that could become problematic.

Diminished sentence if precognition motivation is verified, to be increased if the prophesied future comes to pass anyways?
 
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Conjured Blade said:
For that matter, what even is a good policy for precog motivated crime? We may be precogproof but our time is finite. So if we drop everything for any precog that comes to us that could become problematic.

Diminished sentence if precognition motivation is verified, to be increased if the prophesied future comes to pass anyways?
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I really don't think that's viable. Intentions, beyond intention to harm over accidental harm don't really change legal sentences and, at best, might buy leniency at a particular judge's discretion.
 
Question: How much do Sayaka and Mami know about Homura's personal distrust of the Kures? Like- I'm concerned about drawing extra attention to Homura's secrets with the "Look after Homura./Ask if she wants to talk privately./Ask what she wants to do" part of the proposed vote, if it's not already well known she has a personal Thing that she's not willing to share and that everyone else is willing to be letting go. Or, I suppose I may be missestimating how much Homura cares about letting on that she has secrets as long as there's no hint about what they are?

Also: We do need to apologise and make clear that we weren't trying to pass any resolution and then apply it to Oriko without telling them: these are related but separate issues, and we do need to discuss the wider case, as evidenced by the thing with Airi, and unfortunately, given the current state of affairs, we can't get around the fact that we have other prisoners to whom this also applies.

Or something.

Edit: Possibly the emphasis on "prisoners" will help Homura keep in mind that we're not subverted, and help Sayaka keep in mind that if they're our prisoners, then justice says we have responsibility to them? Either way, it shouldn't hurt our case, whichever one we make. I don't think?​
 
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Demosthenes said:
I agree that this might not have been the best time to bring this up, but it's too late, we are already ankle deep, both feet, in this cowpie and we need to keep going.
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That's how you track shit all over your home. But I agree. At this point we need to remove this from O&K entirely and make it purely about justice.

And maybe later figure out when they will be satisfied with her and Kirika's punishment. What their end goal is.


But I gotta say again, sob stories about how much being imprisoned sucks aren't going to move anyone. That's kind of the point.
 
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Let's not have a fight with Homura over this.

[X] Proposal: exile the Kures to a desert island somewhere, maybe under a nondetection field.
-[X] Oriko seemed to think something would assassinate her if she didn't stay close to us, but maybe the nondetection field would prevent that.
[X] Proposal: send the Kures to Fukushima as prisoners.
[X] Proposal: gem the Kures, hold their soul gems, store them (maybe in hammerspace?) until after Walpurgisnacht.
-[X] Arguably this is their best chance of surviving the month.
[X] Proposal: Sayaka, would beating them up make you feel better? We don't really like violence, but if this would solve the problem...
[X] If none of this seems to work, back down and apologize.
 
GiftOfLove said:
That's how you track shit all over your home. But I agree. At this point we need to remove this from O&K entirely and make it purely about justice.

And maybe later figure out when they will be satisfied with her and Kirika's punishment. What their end goal is.


But I gotta say again, sob stories about how much being imprisoned sucks aren't going to move anyone. That's kind of the point.
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I LIKE MY HOUSE BEING COVERED IN SHIT, REALLY BRINGS OUT THE CURTAINS.

On a more serious note, the topics of O&K's punishment and our policies of meguca justice are inexorably tied; you can't separate the two.
 
Phigment said:
Alternate plan:

Tonight, after Oriko and Kirika are asleep, we'll take Sayaka over and let her burn down their house.

Then, everybody will be even, and we can all be friends.
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I mean, if it were just Sayaka, funnily enough, I feel like legitimately offering this would make Sayaka examine what exactly she wants out of justice here, rather than keep asking what we want, given that literally we're asking for everyone else's opinion for a reason.

... probably wouldn't help with Homura, alas, or rather, I think we'd probably wake up to find actually burned down house and dead/gemmed Kures in the morning.

Ah well. No easy shonen route here, I think.
 
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