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Paths of Civilization

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tenchifew said:
The french revolution was a messy bloody clustgerfuck, with the rebels turning into far worse monsters than the royals they replaced.

Not going to help them.
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why on fucking earth did you lot not think about it in the previous vote
Like, what part of "supporting monarchy right after we spent decades financing revolutionary thinkers" strikes any of you as a good idea?

This is even worse than Trelli war; this is like Trelli war where we started up slave uprising, with years of abolitionist rhetoric, only to help squish the resultant slave uprising.
This is hilariously self-inconsistent and our intellectuals will gut us internally for it.

Why on earth did any of people voting to start a revolution in Europe then vote for any options besides joining eludes me, as fireshow of revolution will touch us in bad places once it's underway.
 
[X] [War] Offered support to the Hespranxer Republicans (no major allies, UPM currently making supportive noises but has no capacity to interfere) (0.1x)
[X] [Rounds] Begin Industrial Age play
 
tenchifew said:
The french revolution was a messy bloody clusterfuck, with the rebels turning into far worse monsters than the royals they replaced.

Not going to help them.
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"Mark Twain" said:
THERE were two "Reigns of Terror," if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the "horrors" of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.
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ctulhuslp said:
why on fucking earth did you lot not think about it in the previous vote
Like, what part of "supporting monarchy right after we spent decades financing revolutionary thinkers" strikes any of you as a good idea?

This is even worse than Trelli war; this is like Trelli war where we started up slave uprising, with years of abolitionist rhetoric, only to help squish the resultant slave uprising.
This is hilariously self-inconsistent and our intellectuals will gut us internally for it.

Why on earth did any of people voting to start a revolution in Europe then vote for any options besides joining eludes me, as fireshow of revolution will touch us in bad places once it's underway.
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Because I did not vote for supporting revolutionary thinkers, maybe?


And like the Trelly war, I suggest we do not participate.
Because I also voted to not go to Trelli war.
 
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Like, don't get me wrong: in this timeline, the Hespranxer Revolution is a culmination of centuries of Ymaryn scheming and Ymaryn religious and philosophical ideas coming to fruition.
Pretending there are take-backsies wrt revolution is...it would be nice, but cat's out of the bag and we are the ones who put him in there.

tenchifew said:
Because I did not vote for supporting revolutionary thinkers, maybe?
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I did not either, but now we are stuck with it and have to keep it in mind. FWIW I am sorry.
 
tenchifew said:
The french revolution was a messy bloody clusterfuck, with the rebels turning into far worse monsters than the royals they replaced.

Not going to help them.
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Then help ourselves, because we are fucked if we choose either of the other two options. Staying neutral means we will be pitted against militarily superior forces that want to carve off little pieces of us at every moment they can, while supporting the Crown turns us into France 2.0 as the revolutinaries we sent out return home and go 'WTF, why?'

And you are making a huge mistake by thinking these are going to be the same as the OTL revolutionaries. If we ally with the Republic, that means france won't be isolated and besieged at every level like the OTL, which is likely to do wonders for them. Not to mention if we support them, we can try to curb their excesses and make their republic actually work.

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tenchifew said:
Because I did not vote for supporting revolutionary thinkers, maybe?


And like the Trelly war, I suggest we do not participate.
Because I also voted to not go to Trelli war.
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Except we sent them, and now you want to pretend we didn't, even though that could light us on fire. That is a horrible move, when we have to adapt to changing circumstances, and not ignore the world around us.
 
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[X] [War] Offered support to the Hespranxer Republicans (no major allies, UPM currently making supportive noises but has no capacity to interfere) (0.1x)

Dead to the monarchy, long live the republic!

[X] [Rounds] Keep going
 
[X] [War] Stayed neutral (2x)

I just really don't want anything to do with this. We set this fire to hurt Europe, we shouldn't come stand in the middle of it. Support for Republicans is problematic for a number of reasons, and I really don't want to take the pro-monarchy stance.
 
ctulhuslp said:
why on fucking earth did you lot not think about it in the previous vote
Like, what part of "supporting monarchy right after we spent decades financing revolutionary thinkers" strikes any of you as a good idea?

This is even worse than Trelli war; this is like Trelli war where we started up slave uprising, with years of abolitionist rhetoric, only to help squish the resultant slave uprising.
This is hilariously self-inconsistent and our intellectuals will gut us internally for it.

Why on earth did any of people voting to start a revolution in Europe then vote for any options besides joining eludes me, as fireshow of revolution will touch us in bad places once it's underway.
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The whole natural right/contracts thing isn't about republics versus monarchies, IIRC. It's about duties that higher society owe to their lower counterpart, not democracies.

Remember, the UPM revolted because their king sold them out, not because they were taxed without representation.
 
[X] [War] Offered support to the Hespranxer Republicans (no major allies, UPM currently making supportive noises but has no capacity to interfere) (0.1x)
[X] [Rounds] Begin Industrial Age play
Umi-san said:
Look at the greater impact on russia? Technologically, socially, etc. Do we really want to be hit by communist wand?
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I thought this is our long term plan to get our comunism back that we needed to give up because we lacked in roads.
 
Citino said:
Then help ourselves, because we are fucked if we choose either of the other two options. Staying neutral means we will be pitted against militarily superior forces that want to carve off little pieces of us at every moment they can, while supporting the Crown turns us into France 2.0 as the revolutinaries we sent out return home and go 'WTF, why?'
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Remember what happened to our diplomacy when everyone freaked out over us starting a war over slavery?

Imagine what's going to happen if we take a pro-Repubilcan stance in this day and age. Every country ruled by a monarch is going to howl for our blood.
 
[X] [War] Offered support to the Hespranxer Republicans (no major allies, UPM currently making supportive noises but has no capacity to interfere) (0.1x)
[X] [Rounds] Begin Industrial Age play

Supporting republicans has basically 0 chance to win though, but I should remind everyone that it is not the end of the world - out of lightning rounds, we could, for example, establish good trade and diplomatic relationships with them, sell them weaponry and food.
 
[X] [War] Offered support to the Hespranxer Republicans (no major allies, UPM currently making supportive noises but has no capacity to interfere) (0.1x)
[X] [Rounds] Keep going

Perfect. We set up the chaos, we're the source of their thinkers. We RIDE the bloody horse and transition to a Constitutional Monarchy, showing theres a better way(and also they won't burn us because they need us in that scenario)
 
[X] [War] Offered support to the Hespranxer Republicans (no major allies, UPM currently making supportive noises but has no capacity to interfere) (0.1x)
[X] [Rounds] Begin Industrial Age play
 
[X] [War] Offered support to the Hespranxer Republicans (no major allies, UPM currently making supportive noises but has no capacity to interfere) (0.1x)
[X] [Rounds] Begin Industrial Age play

Let our enemies continue to break themselves against each other.
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
[X] [War] Stayed neutral (2x)

I just really don't want anything to do with this. We set this fire to hurt Europe, we shouldn't come stand in the middle of it. Support for Republicans is problematic for a number of reasons, and I really don't want to take the pro-monarchy stance.
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Mmm, a problem. It will hurt us anyway. This is how those revolutionary movements are.
Either they win, in which case we are next, or they lose, in which case everybody recalls whose agents have kickstarted the whole mess...including our own intelligentsia which has spent a hella lot of time preaching the things which are the source of revolution.

Which is why supporting them, while terrifically problematic short-term, is likely the least painful long-term one, due to avoiding hypocrisy of first starting wave of revolutions then trying to squish it - because people who did it are our own thinkers and we are not off the hook because we wanted it for realpolitik reasons.

Kiba said:
The whole natural right/contracts thing isn't about republics versus monarchies, IIRC. It's about duties that higher society owe to their lower counterpart, not democracies.

Remember, the UPM revolted because their king sold them out, not because they were taxed without representation.
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A populace which thinks it has rights and that their lords have obligations to them is definitely a part of it all.
 
Citino said:
They don't have to. We aren't moscow, the capital is instead in Gerogia, on the Black Seas, when they have control of most of the oceans. Trelli isn't invincible, and with the increase in artillery and massive land advantage the Europeans are about to pick up, we could very much be at risk.

As compared to staying neutral, which at best wins us some time to do... what exactly?

Not to mention winning France to our side would be massive, especially if they can pull out a Napolean like IRL.
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The rebels will do unspeakable things, it's unavoidable since they would be fighting almost all of Europe and that is a very desperate situation to be in, our people will demand that we stop supporting them and then we would be abandoning them, somthing even worse than staying neutral for our relations with them. It will also massively displeasure our nobles, our situation is already a bit shaky and uncertain with the unification, let's not descend into civil unrest.

Also, by supporting an anti-monarchy movement we would be losing all our friends, allies and trading partners, while maybe gaining a temporary (you can bet that it wouldn't last for long) alliance with the republic, that is laughably not worth it

Lightning rounds are over. We can easily Marco our way into gaining everything that joining the war would have gained us while not suffering the monumental losses (in trade, diplomatic relations and resources) that joining the war on either side entails.
 
tenchifew said:
Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 5810

Wow, rarely saw I a quote where Twain was this ignorant.
Because this led to the Soviet revolution. And tens of millions died as a result.
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If you read the history, you'll find that the Reolutionaries went overboard, but they killed a few thousand, ten thousand at most, even counting the repression of rebellion in the Vendee. It's pretty mild compared to all the other terrible revolutions that have happened since.

The Wars obviously killed more, but remember that it was the monarchists who started them.
 
[X] [War] Offered support to the Hespranxer Republicans (no major allies, UPM currently making supportive noises but has no capacity to interfere) (0.1x)

I'd like to remind the thread that the last time we had a historically significant decision with this kind of vote multiplier, ignoring it caused the fall of Old Ymar at the hands of the Khan.

This is our opportunity to make a real difference. Let's not ignore it.
 
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Inserted tally
Offered support to the Hespranxer Republicans (no major allies, UPM currently making supportive noises but has no capacity to interfere) (0.1x) 23*0,1=2,3

Stayed neutral (2x) 9*2=18

Supporting the Republic only needs more 158 votes to win.
Adhoc vote count started by Arbit on Feb 25, 2018 at 1:03 PM, finished with 68 posts and 36 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by Arbit on Feb 25, 2018 at 1:04 PM, finished with 73 posts and 37 votes.
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