This was also my understanding. It's not that there are a heap of dark elves. They just maintain a massive slave population of humans they can leverage against Ulthuan. So their massive invasions arnt as much elves fighting elves (Though that is how both sides like to frame it). But more the dark elf empire vs the high elves.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Oklahoma
I've never gotten the idea that Feldmann wanted the Skaven tech to increase his personal power- rather, he wanted it to help his college, help the Empire, and for the political capital that comes from those two things.
That is, he wanted it for exactly what Mathilde was using it for- except he was going to use the resources of an entire college to do it much faster than we could.
And it was considered that he would perhaps use this political capital to obtain support for a shot at Supreme Patriarch, but that's a bit different from 'Feldman shows up decked out like a steampunk rambo and blasts Dragomas through a wall'.
That is, he wanted it for exactly what Mathilde was using it for- except he was going to use the resources of an entire college to do it much faster than we could.
And it was considered that he would perhaps use this political capital to obtain support for a shot at Supreme Patriarch, but that's a bit different from 'Feldman shows up decked out like a steampunk rambo and blasts Dragomas through a wall'.
dinomannitro6
all your gender is belong to us
- Location
- The Land Where The Sunflowers Bloom
it was unlikely, exactly 1/6 unlikely : v
No they haven't. The druuchii and Cdwarfs maintain parity through their hordes of slaves and being able to choose their battles. Both the dwarfs and high elves are bound to duties that take them out of their safe homes and into the wider world to defend others. This means that not only are they usually more isolated than their counterparts and vulnerable to being picked off, they are also not at home and available to have kids. It's a double whammy, with a lot of little side problems along the way.
You will probably be voting for a long time. We are about to get a whole new cast of Elf and Wood Spirit-y characters added to the roster. Plus Kislev and Bretonnia stuff as we explore the Waystone network and seek aid from other magic styles.
Fortunately the Skaven tech isn't going anywhere. We shall get round to it. Eventually.
King Arthur
The Once and Future King
Also, I'm not even sure if you can use personal equipment during the duels?
We certainly didn't see anyone use any, no mention of even a staff, all the discussion of "would Mattie stand a chance" has everyone mention "this hard depends on if she can use any of her stuff and we don't know if that's allowed."
Plus, for the most part ... we basically just handed him tech stuff if I recall right, outside of the crystal sword, so most stuff he makes would probably be mechanical. If someone is allowed to use a mechanical technological device in the duel I see no reason we can't use a gun, which, honestly, would make a farce of the entire thing.
It's not a magic duel if we can draw a gun faster then the opponent can cast a spell.
Edit:
It's also very much a thing of "the longer we wait the more interesting the response is likely to be."
I'm not expecting immediate results on this, this is a long term project on their part. The longer it takes us to get around to this the more likely they are to have accomplished anything.
We certainly didn't see anyone use any, no mention of even a staff, all the discussion of "would Mattie stand a chance" has everyone mention "this hard depends on if she can use any of her stuff and we don't know if that's allowed."
Plus, for the most part ... we basically just handed him tech stuff if I recall right, outside of the crystal sword, so most stuff he makes would probably be mechanical. If someone is allowed to use a mechanical technological device in the duel I see no reason we can't use a gun, which, honestly, would make a farce of the entire thing.
It's not a magic duel if we can draw a gun faster then the opponent can cast a spell.
Edit:
It's also very much a thing of "the longer we wait the more interesting the response is likely to be."
I'm not expecting immediate results on this, this is a long term project on their part. The longer it takes us to get around to this the more likely they are to have accomplished anything.
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- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Ok, but I know (I think? Hazy memories, at least) we have at least one near-extinction event for the chaos dwarves, and what, one half of one province for the seed population of druuchi? The druuchi that are known to be actually quite murderous towards each other, and go on regular risky expeditionary raids to take slaves?
Both of those species, if they weren't reproducing at a higher rate than their parent populations despite being much less oriented towards child rearing, would be gone from attrition by now.
So it seems like *something* must be up in both cases, where it's almost like some colossal, sub-reality 'balancing' going on, and the only watsonian mechanisms we've got for that are the gods, the old ones, and the dragons.
Well, we currently have about a dozen social options (some repeatable, some not) and 4-5 social actions. If we assume the first stage of the waystone project adds about... I'd guess 6 at the minimum, 10 at the max, that gives us 4-6 turns to see everything, assuming we don't double dip on anybody (and we might want to).
Of course, I could be massively wrong and maybe it'll add like, 30 social options?
Right.
Things the Vow of Poverty does:
- Reassures the citizens of the Empire that the extremely abusable Shadow Magic is in the hands of a group that has strict rules against abusing it.
- Makes it so that if it does appear that someone is abusing it, the first reaction of influential people that hear of it would be to dob them in to the Grey Order, making them able to punish or reassure as appropriate. This makes it so that any negative rumours of Grey Wizards reach the ears of the Grey Order very quickly.
- Gives the Grey Order a way to police its members that does not set uncomfortable precedents for the other Orders.
- Gives the Grey Order a relatively benign pretence to start rooting through any Grey Wizard's affairs, even if they're suspected of something much worse than economic malfeasance.
- Gives the Grey Order a great deal of control over who Grey Wizards end up working for, as anything even slightly amiss can be investigated as potentially running afoul of the Vow.
- Makes Grey Wizards think hard before accepting any job, forcing them at least consider it in terms of what benefit it provides to the Empire, and if there is none, they have to either turn the job down or make it provide some benefit.
- Filters out any potential Wizards who are motivated by a desire for wealth, who might otherwise find the Wind of being extremely sneaky and deceptive very attractive.
- Makes it so the Grey Order, which does not have hugely profitable cash cows like alchemy for the Golds or fortune telling for the Celestials, is able to ensure that its Wizards are properly paying the tithe.
- Puts a test of character in front of all Journeymen Grey Wizards. If they strictly abide by the Vow, then they're suitable for one set of jobs. If they're able to negotiate its loopholes without crossing any lines or raising any stinks, then they're a good fit for a different set of jobs. If they chafe at it and fall to temptation, then better they fall to the temptation of money now than the temptations of the Chaos Gods a decade down the line.
The Vow does seem deceptive, ambiguous, and inconsistent. It's meant to, because that's what Ulgu is. Grey Wizards spend ten years learning how to think like Ulgu before they're let out into the world. Thinking their way through the byzantine snarl of the Vow of Poverty is as natural to them as casting the spells of Shadow Magic.
Things it is not:
- It is not a vow to exist only in a state of poverty.
- It is not a absolutist deontological taboo against ever taking any action that might disadvantage any citizen of the Empire.
- It is not a signed death warrant for every Grey Wizard just in case the Order needs it.
- It is not a vow against exploiting people with magic, only against doing so for the wrong reasons.
TL;DR:
If Mathilde isn't worried, you shouldn't be worried.
The thread has become very adapt at risk assessment and management over the years. When war with Marienburg loomed, the thread was very careful with how Mathilde trod. The monitor being mined in the Skull River could have ended with a declaration of war if Mathilde had spun the evidence she found differently. The Vampire War did involve a fellow called Abelhelm carking it which seems pretty consequencey to me, but aside from that, Mathilde intervened a number of times to defang what could have been ugly situations - removing Alkharad, taking out the Black College, depowering the Lhamians, providing evidence to dismantle the smugglers that were bankrolling them. Every step of it done at the cost of everything else Mathilde could have been doing. It would have been supremely cheap to pull something like 'okay, well done, but dramatic tension requires something goes bad so Mannfred just woke up, lol'.
There's also the time scale at work - a lot of things that feel like they've been dangling for a while have been doing so because the thread decided to go adventuring in the Chaos Wastes. This Karag Dum might have escaped the IC time distortion effect of the canonical one, but it did experience the OOC time distortion of having week-long turns instead of six month turns. Wheels are turning. Wissenland tried to recruit Mathilde because they took a swing at the Skaven and whiffed it, which is a big yikes. Barak Varr are making a play for Mad Dog Pass because it is now the only pass through the World's Edge Mountains not under Dwarven control. Belegar is aligning the royalty of the Karaz Ankor with him - he has Kazrik and Edda on his council, he fought alongside Ulthar, he's providing massive economic benefits to Barak Varr, he contributed heavily to Zhufbar and Karak Kadrin's Expedition - and he wanted Mathilde to stay on so he could make that even more the case.
On a third hand (metaphorically speaking, Witch Hunters don't @ me) I'm just one guy and I'm already not writing as much as I'd like to be. So I take measures to ensure that what I do deliver is what the thread most wants to see. That means that if the thread doesn't particularly care about updates about salamanders, then they'll fade into the background. torroar is able to keep the wheels turning on everything happening in every corner of the Empire simultaneously but I'm no torroar.
On a fourth hand, my writing/worldbuilding style is character-driven, not event-driven. When dominoes fall in this quest, they're not chains of events, they're the results of what characters want and what resources they have available to pursue those goals. Feldmann showing up to challenge Dragomas as a magitech Iron Man would have been a kicking rad story beat, but that's not what Feldmann wanted to do. The Vampire War turning cold is because Roswita wants a low-cost victory more than she wants a fast one. War with Marienburg didn't happen because very few people actually want that war, and so far everyone's managed to keep from stumbling into it anyway.
Things the Vow of Poverty does:
- Reassures the citizens of the Empire that the extremely abusable Shadow Magic is in the hands of a group that has strict rules against abusing it.
- Makes it so that if it does appear that someone is abusing it, the first reaction of influential people that hear of it would be to dob them in to the Grey Order, making them able to punish or reassure as appropriate. This makes it so that any negative rumours of Grey Wizards reach the ears of the Grey Order very quickly.
- Gives the Grey Order a way to police its members that does not set uncomfortable precedents for the other Orders.
- Gives the Grey Order a relatively benign pretence to start rooting through any Grey Wizard's affairs, even if they're suspected of something much worse than economic malfeasance.
- Gives the Grey Order a great deal of control over who Grey Wizards end up working for, as anything even slightly amiss can be investigated as potentially running afoul of the Vow.
- Makes Grey Wizards think hard before accepting any job, forcing them at least consider it in terms of what benefit it provides to the Empire, and if there is none, they have to either turn the job down or make it provide some benefit.
- Filters out any potential Wizards who are motivated by a desire for wealth, who might otherwise find the Wind of being extremely sneaky and deceptive very attractive.
- Makes it so the Grey Order, which does not have hugely profitable cash cows like alchemy for the Golds or fortune telling for the Celestials, is able to ensure that its Wizards are properly paying the tithe.
- Puts a test of character in front of all Journeymen Grey Wizards. If they strictly abide by the Vow, then they're suitable for one set of jobs. If they're able to negotiate its loopholes without crossing any lines or raising any stinks, then they're a good fit for a different set of jobs. If they chafe at it and fall to temptation, then better they fall to the temptation of money now than the temptations of the Chaos Gods a decade down the line.
The Vow does seem deceptive, ambiguous, and inconsistent. It's meant to, because that's what Ulgu is. Grey Wizards spend ten years learning how to think like Ulgu before they're let out into the world. Thinking their way through the byzantine snarl of the Vow of Poverty is as natural to them as casting the spells of Shadow Magic.
Things it is not:
- It is not a vow to exist only in a state of poverty.
- It is not a absolutist deontological taboo against ever taking any action that might disadvantage any citizen of the Empire.
- It is not a signed death warrant for every Grey Wizard just in case the Order needs it.
- It is not a vow against exploiting people with magic, only against doing so for the wrong reasons.
TL;DR:
If Mathilde isn't worried, you shouldn't be worried.
The thread has become very adapt at risk assessment and management over the years. When war with Marienburg loomed, the thread was very careful with how Mathilde trod. The monitor being mined in the Skull River could have ended with a declaration of war if Mathilde had spun the evidence she found differently. The Vampire War did involve a fellow called Abelhelm carking it which seems pretty consequencey to me, but aside from that, Mathilde intervened a number of times to defang what could have been ugly situations - removing Alkharad, taking out the Black College, depowering the Lhamians, providing evidence to dismantle the smugglers that were bankrolling them. Every step of it done at the cost of everything else Mathilde could have been doing. It would have been supremely cheap to pull something like 'okay, well done, but dramatic tension requires something goes bad so Mannfred just woke up, lol'.
There's also the time scale at work - a lot of things that feel like they've been dangling for a while have been doing so because the thread decided to go adventuring in the Chaos Wastes. This Karag Dum might have escaped the IC time distortion effect of the canonical one, but it did experience the OOC time distortion of having week-long turns instead of six month turns. Wheels are turning. Wissenland tried to recruit Mathilde because they took a swing at the Skaven and whiffed it, which is a big yikes. Barak Varr are making a play for Mad Dog Pass because it is now the only pass through the World's Edge Mountains not under Dwarven control. Belegar is aligning the royalty of the Karaz Ankor with him - he has Kazrik and Edda on his council, he fought alongside Ulthar, he's providing massive economic benefits to Barak Varr, he contributed heavily to Zhufbar and Karak Kadrin's Expedition - and he wanted Mathilde to stay on so he could make that even more the case.
On a third hand (metaphorically speaking, Witch Hunters don't @ me) I'm just one guy and I'm already not writing as much as I'd like to be. So I take measures to ensure that what I do deliver is what the thread most wants to see. That means that if the thread doesn't particularly care about updates about salamanders, then they'll fade into the background. torroar is able to keep the wheels turning on everything happening in every corner of the Empire simultaneously but I'm no torroar.
On a fourth hand, my writing/worldbuilding style is character-driven, not event-driven. When dominoes fall in this quest, they're not chains of events, they're the results of what characters want and what resources they have available to pursue those goals. Feldmann showing up to challenge Dragomas as a magitech Iron Man would have been a kicking rad story beat, but that's not what Feldmann wanted to do. The Vampire War turning cold is because Roswita wants a low-cost victory more than she wants a fast one. War with Marienburg didn't happen because very few people actually want that war, and so far everyone's managed to keep from stumbling into it anyway.
Theres no hard and fast rule, the key for equipment lies in the intersection of:
1) Does this way of winning impress the wizardly collective? Uberstaves, stat inverting mirrors, swords with eight powerstones, and the ashes of a dead god, are pretty impressive. Stuff you made is pretty impressive. Stuff you mastered can be impressive to certain Colleges(the Grey, Amethyst and Bright Orders may have higher levels of appreciation for swording really good with a really good sword, but the Celestial and Light Colleges are likely unimpressed). Bringing in a greatcannon or a steam tank is probably not impressing anyone of anything beyond your lack of shame.
2) Is this means a consumable? If it has limited charges or limited uses, then consider that wizards will probably notice that, and they would be glad to challenge you until you run out of charges, especially if you ousted a favored Patriarch with single use tricks.
3) Is this means yours? Thats a vaguer definition, but everyone does have their iconic equipment. Mathilde's sword is part of her brand identity after all, as is her belt, but if she specially commissioned a talisman just for the duel, she'd probably get the stink eye.
Each of those would deliver more challengers, and theres only so many you can take on. Does the advantage line up enough?
Feel free to answer these or not.
ULGU!!
Some things still feel weird about it, but other than 'well that's not how I'd do it'... how well does it actually work at assuring the citizens, and why? What do they know about its enforcement? If a random burgher learned of our involvement with the EIC, would that incline them to immediately report us (assuming this burgher is the type to immediately report a violator), or would they figure it's probably fine?
Basically that whole conversation went everywhere and achieved nothing.
Yeah, this definitely makes sense. Though, unfortunately, it makes it a bit hard for us, who are not Grey Wizards. At least, I'm clearly not. I'm still not clear on what kind of things would violate the vow, other than outright 'use magic to exploit people for...' actually, I'm not sure what qualifier would go there. Probably just a vague wave in the direction of bad reasons, duh, it varies.
ULGU!!
Ah, a nice, simple rule of thumb!
Some things still feel weird about it, but other than 'well that's not how I'd do it'... how well does it actually work at assuring the citizens, and why? What do they know about its enforcement? If a random burgher learned of our involvement with the EIC, would that incline them to immediately report us (assuming this burgher is the type to immediately report a violator), or would they figure it's probably fine?
This whole thing was more about potential conflicts of interests and picking winners and losers in Imperial politics/economics, but got way out of hand over how much the digression of whether the Barak Varr canal did or did not harm which people, and continued to spiral away from quest canon into speculation about the merits of the concept in general.
Basically that whole conversation went everywhere and achieved nothing.
- Location
- Canada
I was getting mad hyped to call in the Templars for some proper righteous inquisitioning, but then you reached the fourth hand and I realized you weren't a chaos mutant, just a perfectly literate orangutan.
So, not a problem. All is well.
The typical line of thought would be something like "they've taken a Vow of Poverty and the Greys are hardcore about self-policing so if a Grey Wizard is openly doing money things it's for Grey Wizard reasons, because if it wasn't they'd already be dead."
Ah, this might be the sticking point. To a modern perspective, 'politics/economics' is a perfectly sensible pairing. But to feudal nobility, proper money comes from owning land. Trade is just what peasants do because they don't have land. So a Grey Wizard meddling in trade is a Grey Wizard meddling in peasant business, so it's not actually important. Ostermark nobles are the rare exceptions to this, they've been a sort of pseudo-republic-slash-trade-league ever since their capital of Mordheim got obliterated by a meteor, which is why Mathilde had to tread carefully in that brush with them.
Makes sense. But given it's the Grey Order doing the judging... are they going by 'what other people will object to' or have they absorbed the memes?
If instead of the EIC building a canal it was... say, a matter of inheritance (you're involved because... I don't know, ninja rats stole the records or something) that you intervened in, would that be a problem?
You might find it easier to understand what's going on (and maybe get less angry replies) if you're a little less dismissive of other perspectives. Really, 'absorbed the memes'?
The Grey Order operates within the world they inhabit. Each of them is a person born into one of the nations of the Old World and educated by an institution of the Empire. They are not timeless arbiters presented with the array of every economic theory that history has ever produced from which they either pick the One Shining Truth or get led astray by 'memes' into drinking from a false grail. Some might believe in economic feudalism, others might be mercantilists, others state capitalists, others might hold theories that never even developed in our own history. They'd try to plot the best course they can based on their own beliefs and the beliefs of those around them. And anyone that thinks there's one thing the Grey Order should believe as some self-evident economic truth is really barking up the wrong tree.
It would be an enormous problem.
Personally I'm in favor of Tinkentoff's theory of Macro-Dynamic Aetheric Resonant Monetary Balancing. You see if you map the intensity of each wind on a macroscale moving average basis and compare it to economic records, close examination reveals that the intensity of each Wind corresponds to the frequency of one of Tinkentoff's Eight Basic Economic Activities. You just have to squint a little and ignore all contradictory evidence as flaws in the data collection.
Doesn't this all mean that Eike is going to have to deal with some massive challenges if she joins the Grey College? She is currently the sole heir to a massive economic power and their doesn't seem like their are any plans to change that. What is going to happen when she is finally faced with the task of swearing the Vow of Poverty? It seems like it would be difficult for the Grey College to force one of their members to give up all the opportunities for influence and power inherent to her family legacy especially given how that legacy was only made possible through the actions of a Lady Magister.
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She'll need to use it for the benefit of the Empire, presumably.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
I think the problem was specifically getting involved in such a thing when you wouldn't normally be, rather than it happening naturally regardless of your loyalties or what magic you use. Like, if we were trying to make her heir to an economic power, it would be a very different scenario.
I meant 'memes' as in 'the ideas, attitudes, biases, and subconscious influences that are developed, transmitted, and transformed throughout a society' sense, not the 'internet pictures' sense. I apologize if I came across as hostile.
To test my newfound knowledge: It won't be a problem unless it becomes harmful for her to have it. (Mathilde hasn't mentioned it, after all), but it means she won't inherit her grandmother's titles. Which given that wizards don't do that anyways, I believe...
My point is that if Eike is the recognized heir of a major economic power than she is going to be heavily involved in the political and economic conflicts that the Vow of Poverty is meant to keep the Grey Magisters away from. I can't imagine that all the powerful Nobles and Merchants who must consider the Eastern Imperial Company a factor in their plans won't consider the heir to that company being a member of the Grey Order something to be concerned about. Would they all really be perfectly willing to ignore one of the Empire's largest economic powers visibly becoming a de facto extension of the Grey Order?
Probably not, but then again the Grey Order probably wants that power more than enough to deal with the fallout. Opportunities like that do not grow on trees.
That is my point regarding the challenge. The Grey Order is going to have to decide whether they value the principles of the Vow of Poverty and the social advantages they gain from visibly respecting it with the unrivaled opportunities for power and influence that could come from having direct control of what can be considered the Empire's first Mega-Corporation.
This is a unique predicament for the Grey Order that wasn't present in any of the few times that they must have had to deal with the child of a wealthy merchant or noble as the scale and visibility of what they stand to lose by heeding the Vow of Poverty is unmatched.
This is a unique predicament for the Grey Order that wasn't present in any of the few times that they must have had to deal with the child of a wealthy merchant or noble as the scale and visibility of what they stand to lose by heeding the Vow of Poverty is unmatched.
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We already have word of GM on that, the answer is 'yes, all the money and power yes'. They want Eike and her connections on side.
She'll have to get good at finding causes that the EIC is of direct and practical use to.
Only the Amethysts require their Wizards to foreswear any inherited titles, but IIRC Wilhelmina doesn't actually have any titles to inherit.
There will undoubtedly be problems. But Eike is booked in to spend the next decade developing a skillset that will be able to overcome those problems. And the Grey Order is not forbidden from getting involved in politics and economics, they're required to act for the betterment of the Empire as a whole when they do get involved, rather than benefiting individuals at the expense of the Empire.
The kind of person that is unwilling to accept a high-risk, high-reward challenge is the kind of person that never becomes a Wizard in the first place.
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