Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[henkalv]

Actually, on the whole "Asur are in decline" problem we might go full circle back to the whole "gods as corporations" discussion.

While Isha, the goddess of fertility among other things, is a major god for both the Asur and the Asrai, she is pretty much the head god for the Asrai, while Asuryan is head god for the Asur. And while both people benefit from Isha I wouldn't be surprised if she pays back the Asrais devotion with more of her attention, while the Asur gets stable governments or whatever Asuryan actually stands for.

Another explanation here is that a culture with a fertility goddess as head god might just naturally have higher birthrates for cultural reasons.

 

[Mopman43]

Actually, on the whole "Asur are in decline" problem we might go full circle back to the whole "gods as corporations" discussion.

While Isha, the goddess of fertility among other things, is a major god for both the Asur and the Asrai, she is pretty much the head god for the Asrai, while Asuryan is head god for the Asur. And while both people benefit from Isha I wouldn't be surprised if she pays back the Asrais devotion with more of her attention, while the Asur gets stable governments or whatever Asuryan actually stands for.

Another explanation here is that a culture with a fertility goddess as head god might just naturally have higher birthrates for cultural reasons.

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I mean, the Everqueen has still been a thing for the past ~8,000 years at least.

I have no idea who wins in an Isha-off between Ariel and Alarielle.

 

[henkalv]

I mean, the Everqueen has still been a thing for the past ~8,000 years at least.

I have no idea who wins in an Isha-off between Ariel and Alarielle.

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idk, though it doesn't really matter for the argument. Isha might have an equal amount of divinity bucks invested in both avatars, she just spends extra on the Asrai as a whole.

Though really, I'm much more a fan of the theory that a people with a fertility god as head god just becomes more fertile because of the culture that leads to.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Yes. The fun part is finding a reason even with that.

I mean, it may very well be that if Boney ever decides on an answer, it will involve dropping some part of the described situation. Until then, we speculate.

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That happens now, but the period of Aethis' reign notes that there were no Drucchi raids, and this would before raids from the Norscans started.

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I mean, the Everqueen has still been a thing for the past ~8,000 years at least.

I have no idea who wins in an Isha-off between Ariel and Alarielle.

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but your only 'noping' any reply that comes up?

Do you have an idea? and just trying to get others to say it?

 

[Mopman43]

Do you have an idea?

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I have no idea whatsoever.

I am presenting what's in the 8th edition book. Hell if I know past that.

 

[BaseDeltaZero]

Only person who is being absurd here is you. How hard it is to understand that something can be good for the Empire? Even your best argument boils down to Hans the trader can't eat imported spices this year and have to wait never mind that in a bit then he can eat more than ever.

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The question isn't whether it's good for the Empire. It was. If you handed me a sheet beforehand that said 'Is this a good idea for the Empire?' I'd say yes, tentatively, but that's my modern perspective. In retrospect? Yes, it was good, especially with no war. On the balance, in retrospect, the canal is good for the Empire. On that we agree.
If you ask me 'Hey, this person owns 33% of the EIC, should you trust their judgement on whether or not the EIC expanding is good for the Empire?' I'd say no.
And no, Hans the trader doesn't get to eat imported spices next year because he earned his money carrying things by Route Y, and now that everything goes by Route X, he doesn't have money anymore. He would go trade on the canal, except he can't, because the EIC is a monopoly, and not so interested in hiring from other trading companies.

Also most of those traders are explotive hacks that hurt people with their trade monopolies.

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Sure they are. So are we. That is how the Empire works. It's just that now the people with the monopolies are us, and the people getting exploited are them.

I mean when you think about it the reason Empire is not hut by the canal is Marienburg has already crushed anybody who would. They took over and so there is no Empire Citizen left that would be hurt by this canal. Only Marienburg and its patsies. That is what Monopoly means.

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Trading with a port that has the monopoly on imports doesn't mean you're their patsy. It means they have a monopoly. I mean, you can certainly declare them an enemy of the Empire. Arguably, a Grey Wizard has the ability to do so! It's just. Convenient.
There are also routes that don't connect with Marienburg, overland routes, etc that may see a loss in traffic. Distribution centers that are no longer viable. Entire provinces whose entire trade balance has shifted.
We have just made a massive change to the Empire and we have become filthy rich for it.

there is not one line in the story about how canal would hurt anybody.

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I'm pretty sure there were the Nordland? Ostland? Guys that opposed it, though we did end up working them in/convincing them. It might have been by buying them out, though.

My advice is accept you are wrong rather than doubling down on this like this. Even QM said you are wrong but it is like you can't accept being wrong and ignored him. So at this point you are just embarassing yourself. Not a good look.

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... that wasn't one of the things the QM said I was wrong on. I tried to drop the whole subject. You wouldn't, and instead claimed that it is absurd that the canal hurt a single person in the Empire, which is, frankly, just statistically impossible.

What exactly do you want? To say the canal benefited the Empire as a whole? Never suggested it didn't. To say that Mathilde has not been condemned for violating the Vow of Poverty? That's obvious. That Mathilde has only ever enriched herself while also intending to enrich the Empire? She's certainly tried, and pretty much succeeded. That the apparent terms of the 'Vow of Poverty' are a plausible thing to happen? Yeah, even if I think it's silly, silly things happen. That my view of the Vow of Poverty was more restrictive than it actually is? Probably. And that colored my opinion of whether Mathilde had in fact violated it unduly? Definitely. (That's probably what I was off base with?)

What I won't agree to is that somehow no one ended up worse off following a nationwide trade rearrangement. That just... happens.
I also don't see what seems to be the Quest reality of the Vow of Poverty as a good idea, at least not without clarification, but that's an entirely separate question.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

I have no idea whatsoever.

I am presenting what's in the 8th edition book. Hell if I know past that.

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... I think I'll leave this conversion. I would like to debate it, but 'I don't know, everyone else come up with ideas, but I'll be quick to say no no no, but again, don't ask me' is.... not fun on this end.

 

[Mopman43]

... I think I'll leave this conversion. I would like to debate it, but 'I don't know, everyone else come up with ideas, but I'll be quick to say no no no, but again, don't ask me' is.... not fun on this end.

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I mean, I'm sorry if I've been annoying on my end.

It's not something I'm intending, for what little that's worth.

 

[Glau]

It's odd to me that all of the elder races- elves, dwarves, slaan- are all capped or declining in population, but we are discussing things as if it were obvious that each race had seperate issues.

So, first question: we know the slaan (mummy frogs are slaan, right?) were all from artificial wombs, and those stopped working/being worked when the old ones left, right?

Second question- when did elf/dwarf populations peak? Orcs have always been a thing so constant warfare would have always been a thing, and even with that plus infighting the populations grew to fill entire empires.

Third question: *was* there anything that changed, or did birth rates just start to fall?

It might be the case that as designed species, most mutations and evolutions degrade the ability to reproduce, and the species therefore have a half-life.

It might be the case that population levels are driven by the gods, where some level of power causes the population of worshipers to expand. (IE, the real agency at societal scales rests with the gods, and changes in their realms. Reality would then backfill like water flowing into a new shape of container.) This is supported by the druuchi and the fire dwarves, where *despite being the same species* they both have managed population growth rates sufficient to become near-equal powers to their parents populations.

It might even be the case that both elf and dwarf reproductive rates are tied to the amount of ambient magic in the world. Wherein, the tipping point towards lower birth rates would be the creation of the vortex- and that is something we could probably actually check.

 

[Rafin]

Eike doesn't even have to use it for information gathering. As far as Grey Collage is concerned EIC is meant to prop up Stirland (and Van Halls) against Sylvania and it is enough by itself to justify its existance. And considering the long term contracts EIC has with Stirland army for supplies this will be the case for a long time.

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Speaking of, I definitely want to return a part of our shares to the EC of Stirland upon our demise. Before Eike stepped on the path of becoming our apprentice I was thinking of 12% (one third), but now I'm thinking of giving Stirland whatever remains after pushing Eike to either 51% or 49% (whatever we decide on). So between 4% and 6% I guess.

So, arbitrary power, then. You're... just describing arbitrary power.

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You're seeing things far too black and white. Under your understanding a majority of nations even today run more on the basis of arbitrary power than the rule of law, because of course laws get selectively applied time and time again.
In the context of a late feudal federation like the Empire this is even more true. Heresy is what a Witch Hunter says it is, except if you have powerful or numerous friends. Tax evasion is what an exciseman says it ks except if you have powerful or numerous friends. And yet both appearances and actual laws do matter, because cynicism is not universal and most people do think of themselves as some flavor of good guys. If you actually flaunt your heresy even the most powerful friend might turn from you. Same if you bring widespread suffering or danger through your fraud.

I mean, I still feel that this could be solved by a 'Don't Use Magic to defraud or steal from people.* If you do, we'll have to Come Over There.' rule. This would amount to the same decision and would not suffer the problem of being textually violated on the regular, which tends to lead to people thinking you don't enforce your rules.
Like, 'Just don't use your magic to rob people, seriously', is a perfectly reasonable restriction, but calling it a Vow of Poverty when it isn't is just asking for trouble.

*Except enemies of the Empire, of course. That's totally okay**.
** We define who enemies of the Empire are. We're still feudal bastards, after all.

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The point is that a lack of proof of your fraud or theft isn't enough. In other words, Grey Wizards have the IRS with blades to appease, while most others just need to follow the inefficient madness that is the medieval taxation system.

no worries, I will say that I think i missed explained what I ment.

I didn't mean 'good must be suffering!' but more that... long-term consequences, good or bad, sometimes feel like that loss energy? if you get what I'm saying.

maybe it's just that the consequences are lining up to smack us, (the war with Meranaberg, long-term benefits/consequences of K8Ps, the vampire war, giving the skaven tech to the golds etc etc. ) and this is the just quite before the storm... but it's been a long quite.

like, for example, during the SP fight, if the Gold Patriarch came out to fight no matter the roll with a bunch of Magi-tech he made from studying the Skaven stuff to offset not being a good dualer, win or lose, that would have been a good consequence of a choice we have let to roust without checking upon. that we unintendedly help in an attempted change in leadership.

but... it feels like 'if we ignore something, it will just say in status' (the vampire war feeling like the big one.) so if we are not sure about the choice's outcome, as long as we keep it at arms-length it will be fine until we are ready for it.

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Have you looked at our rolls though? Whenever we were at a high stakes situation with a 50+% chance of real consequences we just ended up not getting those. Mathilde has been so damn lucky that it seems downright farcical and has made people believe that Ranald is actually real.

In other words, it's not exactly just BoneyM's fault that our good deeds never got punished as one would expect.

like, for example, during the SP fight, if the Gold Patriarch came out to fight no matter the roll with a bunch of Magi-tech he made from studying the Skaven stuff to offset not being a good dualer, win or lose, that would have been a good consequence of a choice we have let to roust without checking upon. that we unintendedly help in an attempted change in leadership.

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Something like that would have felt really forced and (rightfully) upset a lot of people. Because "that innocent boy you saved actually grew up to be a serial killer ha Ha" does not make for a good game except if the illusion of fairness is sustained with some other method like trust that it only happened because of two crit fails in a row or something.

Because bows are better outside of ease of use, but for the elves who live centuries and have all that time to improve their craft ease of use does not matter

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Much weirder to me is that Dark Elves are often depicted using crossbows instead. Like, whatever of the two grants more advantages in the hands of Elves, shouldn't it be the same for all Elves?

No there is not. No Imperial was harmed in the making of this canal.

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That's just not true. There are all kinds of merchants who specialize in trade with Marienburg or trade through dangerous routes that rely on paths they know better than others, or trade with abroad contacts who only they know. An easier route on the other side of the country does probably harm them.
And not just harm in the form of "eating less spices that year" or whatever. For every big trader there are smaller ones working for them or associated with them or selling on their wares after buying from them. Some of them with barely sustainable profit margins, taking out massive loans before each expedition.

That doesn't in any way mean that establishing said route was bad or selfish or against the VoP however. As long as there's capitalism every innovation will harm someone somehow. But far more will end up benefitting.

I'm pretty sure there were the Nordland? Ostland? Guys that opposed it, though we did end up working them in/convincing them. It might have been by buying them out, though.

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Nope. Ostermark guys were worried that the EIC might encroach on their business on the river Stir.

I like Imrik's (the forum member) approach: A bit of this, combined with long, arduous pregnancies. An elf who gets pregnant is committing to a not-insignificant time and no small amount of risk.

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That wouldn't explain how populations got to whatever height that they then started declining from in the first place. Except if one supposes that Elves have been steadily declining ever since the Old Ones stopped managing them directly.

 

[Mopman43]

Second question- when did elf/dwarf populations peak?

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Elf population would presumably been the highest just before the Sundering, when Malekith killed the Phoenix King, got burned for it, started a civil war, and tried to mess with the Vortex, which caused devastation to all of Ulthuan and destroyed large chunks of it.

The height of the Dwarf population would have, I imagine, been right before the War of Vengeance.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Something like that would have felt really forced and (rightfully) upset a lot of people. Because "that innocent boy you saved actually grew up to be a serial killer ha Ha" does not make for a good game except if the illusion of fairness is sustained with some other method like trust that it only happened because of two crit fails in a row or something.

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And im (as rightfully, in that there is no rightfully in this case) upset that after a hell of a lot of possible foreshadowing 'he likely wants the job, but is not a good duelist'... while the thread knows that we gave him the semantics to magic weapons, that he never even tried for it.

Like, I'm not aganst rolls, but there should also be a leave of 'that character would do this because it makes sense for them to do this anyways.' and that one was flagged for ages, but nothing.

and I'm getting pissed that people are going at me for 'all good deeds must be through suffering!' when that was not my argument, and never was my argument.

just that I felt a lack of long term consequences that are bad.

 

[Mopman43]

while the thread knows that we gave him the semantics to magic weapons, that he never even tried for it.

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I'm not sure an enchanted Rattling Gun would pass muster in the magic duel.

(Certainly if he tried anything using actual warpstone he'd have been mobbed by the extremely credentialed spectators)

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

I'm not sure an enchanted Rattling Gun would pass muster in the magic duel.

(Certainly if he tried anything using actual warpstone he'd have been mobbed by the extremely credentialed spectators)

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If he made it himself and it didnt run on warpstone (possible feeding it his own magic?), i think it would be respected. because it would be an example of his magic skills as well as his engineering.

thats my view, as ive stated on why I think mathy shouldn't use her sword (because she didn't make it) if she gives the dual a go.

 

[henkalv]

(mummy frogs are slaan, right?)

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Most slann are just ordinary magical frogs, albeit really sleepy ones. Some of them are relic priests though, which is when one of them is too busy to let something like death slow them down, so they have their spirit hang around the mummified remains of their former bodies and start casting if the body gets trucked out to a battle. This is somehow not necromancy.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Most slann are just ordinary magical frogs, albeit really sleepy ones. Some of them are relic priests though, which is when one of them is too busy to let something like death slow them down, so they have their spirit hang around the mummified remains of their former bodies and start casting if the body gets trucked out to a battle. This is somehow not necromancy.

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Once again, the Slann were the OG 'I'm too stubborn to die!', the Dwarf are just posters.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

If he made it himself and it didnt run on warpstone (possible feeding it his own magic?), i think it would be respected. because it would be an example of his magic skills as well as his engineering.

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Is Feldmann an engineer? He came across as an organiser and administrator to me. I always assumed he was going to dump the Skaven stuff on a dedicated research team, not personally investigate it to develop weapons for himself.

To be honest, the thought that he might use it to win the Supreme Patriarch duel never even crossed my mind. I never considered that he might used weaponized Skaven tech to substitute for his lack of martial skill.

Besides, has the Gold Order actually done anything with the stuff yet? The update where we met him said we'd automatically receive copies of any papers written, but I don't recall seeing any yet? Maybe he simply hasn't developed any article-friendly technosorcery yet.

 

[Angelform]

Most slann are just ordinary magical frogs, albeit really sleepy ones. Some of them are relic priests though, which is when one of them is too busy to let something like death slow them down, so they have their spirit hang around the mummified remains of their former bodies and start casting if the body gets trucked out to a battle. This is somehow not necromancy.

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It doesn't use or generate Dhar and is thus acceptable.
Same with the ghost Dawi that come through Gazul's Sally Port when it is functional.

 

[picklepikkl]

Besides, has the Gold Order actually done anything with the stuff yet? The update where we met him said we'd automatically receive copies of any papers written, but I don't recall seeing any yet? Maybe he simply hasn't developed any article-friendly technosorcery yet.

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It is my belief that this was originally the plan, and then Boney looked at the wordcount he has to deliver, and decided "no, if they want to see the Golds' results with Skaventech, that's not extra on top, that's coming out of the normal words budget." So now we have a social option to check in and find out how it's going, which I intend to keep voting for until it wins.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

It's odd to me that all of the elder races- elves, dwarves, slaan- are all capped or declining in population, but we are discussing things as if it were obvious that each race had seperate issues.

So, first question: we know the slaan (mummy frogs are slaan, right?) were all from artificial wombs, and those stopped working/being worked when the old ones left, right?

Second question- when did elf/dwarf populations peak? Orcs have always been a thing so constant warfare would have always been a thing, and even with that plus infighting the populations grew to fill entire empires.

Third question: *was* there anything that changed, or did birth rates just start to fall?

It might be the case that as designed species, most mutations and evolutions degrade the ability to reproduce, and the species therefore have a half-life.

It might be the case that population levels are driven by the gods, where some level of power causes the population of worshipers to expand. (IE, the real agency at societal scales rests with the gods, and changes in their realms. Reality would then backfill like water flowing into a new shape of container.) This is supported by the druuchi and the fire dwarves, where *despite being the same species* they both have managed population growth rates sufficient to become near-equal powers to their parents populations.

It might even be the case that both elf and dwarf reproductive rates are tied to the amount of ambient magic in the world. Wherein, the tipping point towards lower birth rates would be the creation of the vortex- and that is something we could probably actually check.

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The Lizardman are the easy ones, there are less breeding pools, and more are getting destroyed as time moves on.

I don't like the Idea of 'god levels' its to... it questions the free will and self-determination of the dwarfs and high elves without applying it to the other groups of the setting, including the other elves and dwarfs. (druuchi worship the same gods, they swap the importance of different ones, but they all worship Khanie, and they all worship Asuryan. (he is the witch kings claim to the throne after all.)

Elfs and dwarfs peaked at the start of the war of the beard, and never got the chance to recover because of the civil war (elves) and the minion-wave raid event that was the first skaven attacks (dwarfs), that is actually a constant piece of lore.

both Elves are pre-winds of magic races, but are affected by it differently, so its weird that they are suffering the same problem when dwarfs can't stand magic (literally), but elves practically eat the stuff. but I guess there is a minion and maximum tolerance for all things....

 

[Mopman43]

Elfs and dwarfs peaked at the start of the war of the beard, and never got the chance to recover because of the civil war (elves)

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The civil war was before the War of Vengeance, though.

(Every subsequent war between the Drucchi and Asur would, I feel, be classified as wars between separate polities, rather than civil wars)

 

[SurpriseMe]

It's odd to me that all of the elder races- elves, dwarves, slaan- are all capped or declining in population, but we are discussing things as if it were obvious that each race had seperate issues.

So, first question: we know the slaan (mummy frogs are slaan, right?) were all from artificial wombs, and those stopped working/being worked when the old ones left, right?

Second question- when did elf/dwarf populations peak? Orcs have always been a thing so constant warfare would have always been a thing, and even with that plus infighting the populations grew to fill entire empires.

Third question: *was* there anything that changed, or did birth rates just start to fall?

It might be the case that as designed species, most mutations and evolutions degrade the ability to reproduce, and the species therefore have a half-life.

It might be the case that population levels are driven by the gods, where some level of power causes the population of worshipers to expand. (IE, the real agency at societal scales rests with the gods, and changes in their realms. Reality would then backfill like water flowing into a new shape of container.) This is supported by the druuchi and the fire dwarves, where *despite being the same species* they both have managed population growth rates sufficient to become near-equal powers to their parents populations.

It might even be the case that both elf and dwarf reproductive rates are tied to the amount of ambient magic in the world. Wherein, the tipping point towards lower birth rates would be the creation of the vortex- and that is something we could probably actually check.

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I don't think gods serve as a great causal link, because the High Elves still worship the same gods the Dark Elves do, only with different aspects of the pantheon exalted above the others.

For what it is worth, I think at least the Tyrion and Teclis novels run with the idea that the Dark Elves are declining just as much, if not more, than the High Elves, but I freely admit that other sources are contradictory when it comes to numbers.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

It is my belief that this was originally the plan, and then Boney looked at the wordcount he has to deliver, and decided "no, if they want to see the Golds' results with Skaventech, that's not extra on top, that's coming out of the normal words budget." So now we have a social option to check in and find out how it's going, which I intend to keep voting for until it wins.

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Ah, that seems reasonable. If it's not going to be an automatic update, but something we have to unlock (like the lizards) then I'd be happy to dedicate a future social slot to it.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

The civil war was before the War of Vengeance, though.

(Every subsequent war between the Drucchi and Asur would, I feel, be classified as wars between separate polities, rather than civil wars)

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I'm going to argue that the civil war never ended, and was going on before, during and after, Drucchi and Asur as separate polities happen over time, as a generation developed that was 'never' under one kingdom.

 

[Sir_Travelsalot]

I don't think gods serve as a great causal link, because the High Elves still worship the same gods the Dark Elves do, only with different aspects of the pantheon exalted above the others.

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Actually, I recall it being stated in Tome of Salvation that the Druchii's methods of worship have diverged a great deal from the Asur, to the point that their worship of Khaine, the elven god of murder, has more in common with the human Khaine, not that they would be flattered by the comparison.