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You know it should be noted that our responsibilities are to the Empire, to the Emperor, to the Colleges in that order, they are not to Hans the random Imperial trader. Yes we are not allowed to mindhole Hans to rob him blind to our own ends, but if they choice is Hans' good fortune and that of the Empire as a whole or even just one province Hans goes under the Steam Tank treads.

As long as Mathy believes that the EIC works to the good of the Empire she can brush the fortunes of numberless Imperial merchants under her iron heel and have no issues with the vow.
 
Do they though? I've seen it suggested that the Elven population is pretty darn high. There's a long way to decline from a hyperpower, after all.
I'm sorry, but what? The fact that the Elvish population is small is pretty well documented. That's why Morvael imposed conscription and mandatory military training for all Asurs.

Furthermore, we're talking about the Eonir, who live in a relatively small forest in the middle of the Empire, with constant attrition from beastmen. They're definitely not a superpower.
 
The fact that the Elvish population is small is pretty well documented.
What's repeatedly stated is that it's been shrinking for thousands of years, but Warhammer rarely gives actual numbers (and when it does, they don't make much sense).

So it mostly depends on what a given person's conception of their starting population was.
 
So who does the weighing? It's not the order as a whole- so the bursar, who would be keeping an eye on spending, the porter, who would enforce penalties, and the patriarch, who has final authority?
Eh, it was an abstraction. If you want drill down into the pedantics of enforcement, the sociological metrics of evaluation within the Grey College, it's structure of power, we can, but that all seems pretty tangential to the point that we were bandying about in that quote.
As an alternative, Boney put an Informative on one of my posts a few hours ago...
Right?! Got one of those when I wasn't sure if my interpretation was right yesterday! Feels good man. We should totally start strutting around the thread, arrogantly proclaiming ourselves arbiters of truth!
 
I've kind of headcanon it as 'would not be small, even large for a nation like tilea or a province like hochland or the moot. but nowhere big enough for a whole of Ulthuan or to do the type of global hegemonic wars and sea patrols they are forcing themselves to do/ have to do in the case of the Citadel of Dusk and the Fortress of Dawn.

with an ever-shrinking population.
 
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You know, thinking in it, we've speculated at length about the cause of the decline in numbers for the Dwarfs (my personal theory, and possibly Mathilde's, is a collective species-wide depression results in them never* having more kids than would be a replacement rate, so that any significant attrition or loss is now permanent) but does anyone want to give some thought or speculation to why the High Elves** are going through the same thing?

*Certain kings of Karak Azul aside
**The Asur are the only ones consistently described as declining, I'm not aware of similar language ever being used for the Drucchi or Asrai, and I don't know what 4th edition has to say about the Eonir
 
You know, thinking in it, we've speculated at length about the cause of the decline in numbers for the Dwarfs (my personal theory, and possibly Mathilde's, is a collective species-wide depression results in them never* having more kids than would be a replacement rate, so that any significant attrition or loss is now permanent) but does anyone want to give some thought or speculation to why the High Elves** are going through the same thing?

*Certain kings of Karak Azul aside
**The Asur are the only ones consistently described as declining, I'm not aware of similar language ever being used for the Drucchi or Asrai, and I don't know what 4th edition has to say about the Eonir
'points up' again, my view is that they are constantly overstretching, they could manage a lot better if they just lived in the inner gates of Ulthuan until they built up again.

People complain about them, but if the high elves really went 'fuck everyone else, we are just going to hold up until we can help up' a lot the Warhammer world would suffer.

this is partly over pride, but its also part that someone really does need to do the global (not just old world) fighting that they do, and no one else was able for most of history/ still cant.

and you can argue that they should really be dropping a lot of that duty on human allies, but now it's pride/trust thing.

can you really trust the defence of the Fortress of Dawn to humans? even just the lowest level stuff with supervision? when they corrupt so easy and it would just take one wrong person?
 
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If the elves do gunpowder I'd expect it to be in the form of arrows with small charges that explode inside the target, and rockets rather than cannon. It just seems more in-theme for them, to build off of the metaphor of arrows rather than the dwarven extension from grudge throwers.

narratively, being good has to be a struggle at times or its just an easy pick, no matter out temping the bad road is.

Circling back to this, I think the main cleavage in this story hasn't been about ethics, it's been about loyalties. Not 'right thing' or 'wrong thing', but more 'whose interests do I favor?'

Either way, I think the upcoming conflict we've got with the Grand Theoganist and Middenland is going to stir up some very tough choices.

That is absurd. Like, outright absurd. There are certainly people who will suffer financially from the completion of the canal. Their routes are now further from principle trade routes, or they're losing out to imported goods, or...

This feels like a very nurgalite philosophy to me? Like, the idea that if you can't create benefits without harming anyone else, you just shouldn't ever create any benefits for anyone? It's implied, not explicit, but the whole spiraling down into a pit of misery convinced it is the best of all possible options...
 
'points up' again, my view is that they are constantly overstretching, they could manage a lot better if they just lived in the inner gates of Ulthuan until they built up again.
If it was only a matter of that, then sure, but the reigns of Bel-Korhadris and particularly Aethis* were golden ages of peace, but it's during Aethis' reign that they realize that their population is dwindling, even without any fighting.

*Apart from the last ten minutes, anyway
 
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If it was only a matter of that, then sure, but the reigns of Bel-Korhadris and particularly Aethis* were golden ages of peace, but it's during Aethis' reign that they realize that their population is dwindling, even without any fighting.

*Apart from the last ten minutes, anyway
again 'hegemonic wars' ages of peace don't actually mean no wars at that level, just that things were going pretty steady and Uthran itself didn't get any wars or civilians and kids getting killed by beastman/orc etc.

lots of soldier elves dying overseas still.
 
again 'hegemonic wars' ages of peace don't actually mean no wars at that level, just that things were going pretty steady and Uthran itself didn't get any wars or civilians and kids getting killed by beastman/orc etc.

lots of soldier elves dying overseas still.
Aethis' reign was before the Fortress of Dawn and Citadel of Dusk were built- those were constructed in the reign of his successor, Morvael.

There's no record I've seen of the High Elves doing much fighting overseas in this period.
 
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Could be social? Both races strongly disassociate themselves with what they see as short-sighted and rushed decisions and lives of humans. To them, we breed and die like rabbits, lack wisdom, and time-won mastery.

That kind of social separation could push back on birthrates.

As a tangential example, you see a strong decline in birthrates in a few capitalist countries that have social stigmas for professional women who become pregnant. There's a perception that having kids could ruin their career. Obviously there's more facets to the effect (like social safety nets for women: maternity leave, guaranteed job security during maternity leave etc). So it'd at most be a factor in the problem.

Dwarves certainly have a culture of enduring a world inimical to their existence. It's a bit of a Sisyphean battle to exist and a perception that they'll lose eventually. That certainly can't help birthrates.

Just a stab in the dark though. You'd need statistics for when the decline began and if it correlated with association with humans.
 
You'd need statistics for when the decline began and if it correlated with association with humans.
Huh, I have no idea if you are onto something or not, but the reign of Aethis (499 to 1121 IC) is specifically noted to be when the High Elves distantly learned that the Empire was a thing and began trade relations with Cathay.
 
Huh, I have no idea if you are onto something or not, but the reign of Aethis (499 to 1121 IC) is specifically noted to be when the High Elves distantly learned that the Empire was a thing and began trade relations with Cathay.
Huh. I'm certainly no expert in Warhammer, so I if that's true it's pure chance lol.

To be perfectly honest, the correct answer is probably the Doylist one. GW consistently makes Warhammer grimmer to match some moving target about 'Resistance is Futile' - Chaos probably.

The races stagnating and decline is all part of a narrative of that last grasping struggle of order against chaos. It's all very dark and grim, and it'd be a bit off theme if the there was an Elven Renaissance going on during the end times lol.
 
Huh. I'm certainly no expert in Warhammer, so I if that's true it's pure chance lol.

To be perfectly honest, the correct answer is probably the Doylist one. GW consistently makes Warhammer grimmer to match some moving target about 'Resistance is Futile' - Chaos probably.

The races stagnating and decline is all part of a narrative of that last grasping struggle of order against chaos. It's all very dark and grim, and it'd be a bit off theme if the there was an Elven Renaissance going on during the end times lol.
Oh sure, but if the decline is a thing in the story itself, then there should be a Watsonian explanation.

(Not to say that GW ever actually came up with one, but seeing as how we're engaging with a fan-work here...)
 
This feels like a very nurgalite philosophy to me? Like, the idea that if you can't create benefits without harming anyone else, you just shouldn't ever create any benefits for anyone? It's implied, not explicit, but the whole spiraling down into a pit of misery convinced it is the best of all possible options...
I mean, sure, it's a bad philosophy to run a nation on. On the other hand, it also seems like it might be a bad idea to give your super magic spies authority to make decisions on who prospers and who dwindles on a nationwide level, especially if they also have an outsized personal stake in that decision.

Did Mathilde make that decision? No. But it couldn't have happened without her. And the fact that regardless of whether she or Wilhemina made the call, it greatly benefited her. That is going to have an effect on one's judgement. (Even if it might be the opposite effect, being too conservative for fear of... violating whatever the Vow of Poverty means)*

It doesn't stop being a conflict of interest when you make the right call once.

*Embedding a bunch of agents in various institutions and counting on the fact their survival depends on the Empire's benefit to encourage them to make good decisions is a valid strategy, but doesn't seem to be what's happening, at least not with the Grey College.

On some level we're arguing semantics.


Obviously there's more facets to the effect (like social safety nets for women: maternity leave, guaranteed job security during maternity leave etc). So it'd at most be a factor in the problem.
I like Imrik's (the forum member) approach: A bit of this, combined with long, arduous pregnancies. An elf who gets pregnant is committing to a not-insignificant time and no small amount of risk.

Guns break their rules, Swordmenship takes 3 years before you got the basics, 10 years for the bow, and a lifetime of effort for mastery.

you can build a gunline from people that never even touching the things in 6 months, and human nobles master pistols as an on and off hobby.

a Swordmasters of hoeth can spend centuries mastering cutting rain of arrows out of the air, an master pistoleer can often, if not most of the time, hit him anyways.

of course guns are cheap and tacky!
Basic elf infantry are spearlines.

That's... probably not it.

(And as an aside I suspect a Gunmaster of Hoeth could shoot your bullets out of the air if they wanted to.)


Oh sure, but if the decline is a thing in the story itself, then there should be a Watsonian explanation.
I was going to say something snarky about 'Well, there would have been an elven renaissance, but then End Times.' But then I remembered how dumb Pheonix King Malekith was.

Still uh... *gestures towards Lumineth* ...I guess that counts?
 
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That is absurd. Like, outright absurd. There are certainly people who will suffer financially from the completion of the canal. Their routes are now further from principle trade routes, or they're losing out to imported goods, or...
Only person who is being absurd here is you. How hard it is to understand that something can be good for the Empire? Even your best argument boils down to Hans the trader can't eat imported spices this year and have to wait never mind that in a bit then he can eat more than ever.

Also most of those traders are explotive hacks that hurt people with their trade monopolies. They (Marienburgers and their partners really) are the infection that canal is going to burn out leaving behind healtier economy. This has been clear from the start anybody who paid attention to the story and there is not one line in the story about how canal would hurt anybody. You are just making it up in your mind and acting like it is the most obvious thing in the world but it is not on the account of being completly wrong at every level.

My advice is accept you are wrong rather than doubling down on this like this. Even QM said you are wrong but it is like you can't accept being wrong and ignored him. So at this point you are just embarassing yourself. Not a good look.

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I mean when you think about it the reason Empire is not hurt by the canal is Marienburg has already crushed anybody who would. They took over and so there is no Empire Citizen left that would be hurt by this canal. Only Marienburg and its patsies. That is what Monopoly means.
 
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Oh sure, but if the decline is a thing in the story itself, then there should be a Watsonian explanation.
Yeah it's pretty fun to speculate to be honest. Searching for Watsonian answers to questions in fiction can be a pretty interesting thought experiment tbh.

I wonder how many authors in general bother to bake in answers to some of the more subtle issues their narrative presents.
 
Boring is boring. Ignore does not work for replies to boring, which are frequently also boring though that is no fault of the reply-poster.

Some reply posts should be looked at before being posted and the question should be asked:

"What utility (including fun) will be achieved from this?"
 
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Bear with me on this for a moment since I gotta ask, What if somebody is wrong on the internet?
Then you try to correct them in good faith and after that fails for the third time, mentally pigeonhole them as "troll".

I'm not kidding, it really makes it easier to resist the urge to help when you look at the evidence/pattern and come to the conclusion 'bad-faith poster.'
 
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Oh sure, but if the decline is a thing in the story itself, then there should be a Watsonian explanation.

(Not to say that GW ever actually came up with one, but seeing as how we're engaging with a fan-work here...)
I not sure what you're going with this, You want a Watsonian explanation for contradictory lore, but are unwilling to drop or downplay the contradiction.

the elve's had a long time of peace, but still had a population drop: those are the 'facts'.

we either have to assume a drop in birth rates, that death rates remind high for some reason, or those numbers are bullshit and the guy their hired should be fired.

if we are not going to drop the numbers, then its one or two.

and species-wide depression is already the dwarfs one, that's both boring to give to the elves as well and doesn't work with their personality.

so unless the elves were suddenly having fertility problems. Death rates were still high.

but there is an exemption, fighting, just because Utharn was not at peace doesn't mean no fighting, just no fighting at home or between each other: the kingdoms of Uthern are famous for infighting. (US is 'at peace', they still have wars around the world, and high death rates of soldiers. but its not us soil, and they are not at real rise of it being so, so peace.)

and I just want to point out: this is Warhammer, even an 'age of peace' will have the annual beastman invasion, and the bi-weakly Orc raid.

in this setting, fighting never really stops, just that its a low burn.
 
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and I just want to point out: this is Warhammer, even an 'age of peace' will have the annual beastman invasion, and the bi-weakly Orc raid.
Not on Ulthuan, though. The only threat on Ulthuan itself would be the occasional monster attack from the Annulii mountains.

You want a Watsonian explanation for contradictory lore, but are unwilling to drop or downplay the contradiction.
Yes. The fun part is finding a reason even with that.

I mean, it may very well be that if Boney ever decides on an answer, it will involve dropping some part of the described situation. Until then, we speculate.
 
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