- Location
- Australia
began
Greenskins need to step up their game and get in contact with those wizards. Too much peace right now, not enough papers citing Waaagh and Peace.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
If Eike gets Equestrianism, I'm more interested in seeing where she takes Shadowsteed without Mathilde -- because it might result in a unique mastery. This time done by somebody who already had a background in horse riding, and thus maybe something cool might come of it. Maybe she'd create some kind of animated shadow horse that would be able to act a bit like a horse or quasi-critter or something? Probably not, that's a bit far for a simple spell, but still. ((Or maybe she'd give it wings or something. Hm. Maybe we should put more Grey Order Wizards on pegasuses and see if any of them figure out a non-Battle-Magic alternative to that flying-drake spell. 
))
I'd also like to be able to Codify Mathilde's Shadowsteed Mastery, and then teach the Codified spell to Eike -- in hopes of Eike getting a further Mastery out of that Codified spell. ((Rather than just trying to teach Eike the Mastery.))
Sadly, I don't know if we'll have a chance to Codify the Shadowsteed Mastery any time soon. ((If nothing else, then because Codifying the Knightbringer spell might be higher on the priority; it's a major new spell we came up with and a combat-y spell, a surprise-bodyguard spell basically sorta. And also treading new ground for the Grey Order, in the form of Apparition Binding.)) But if we could, I'd love to do so. Maybe it'll be as useful to other Shadow Wizards as it has been to us.
Alternatively, maybe Eike will be the one to Codify the Masteries. Dunno. Would prefer to do it ourselves. We know those spells best.
))I'd also like to be able to Codify Mathilde's Shadowsteed Mastery, and then teach the Codified spell to Eike -- in hopes of Eike getting a further Mastery out of that Codified spell. ((Rather than just trying to teach Eike the Mastery.))
Sadly, I don't know if we'll have a chance to Codify the Shadowsteed Mastery any time soon. ((If nothing else, then because Codifying the Knightbringer spell might be higher on the priority; it's a major new spell we came up with and a combat-y spell, a surprise-bodyguard spell basically sorta. And also treading new ground for the Grey Order, in the form of Apparition Binding.)) But if we could, I'd love to do so. Maybe it'll be as useful to other Shadow Wizards as it has been to us.
Alternatively, maybe Eike will be the one to Codify the Masteries. Dunno. Would prefer to do it ourselves. We know those spells best.
- Location
- Australia
Wait are fairies a thing in Warhammer or is this a laconic thing? Or is it just referring to spites and junk, or just plain old stories people tell?
Just stories. It's safe to assume the setting has some sort of folktale equivalent to all of the Brothers Grimm tales.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
You're not wrong, but she rolled a 75 to hit 123 there. If you're critting on a 52, that's basically a coin toss.
That sounds like something that would be a narrative explanation for a roll that didn't get the Mastery, but I'd be surprised if it affected the roll itself. And even if she doesn't pick up Mathilde's Mastery, we're no worse off than where we started.
Different is not necessarily better. Yes, she might one day crit on using Shadowsteed and invent a new, horsier Mastery - but not all Masteries are equally useful, and Mathilde's is really, really good.
We're down an action from Mathilde teaching her that could have been spent on something else, like trying to codify a Mastery into an actual spell everyone in the College could learn
- Location
- Aotearoa
The thing is, I have no desire or intent to let Eike graduate to Journeymanling before Mathilde spends an action(s) teaching her Ulgu spells, building on that important shared Master-Apprentice understanding of Ulgu. I would consider us remiss as a Master if we fail to do so.
When looked at with this perspective, nothing is lost by not studying any particular spell here, because there will be another opportunity. Indeed, from this perspective more is lost if Mathilde isn't the first to teach Eike true spells of Ulgu.
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Is a shared master-apprentice understanding of Ulgu valuable, though, or is it a short-cut that hobbles the ex-apprentice from developing their own unique understanding of Ulgu that better fits with their own nature and talents?
Given that earning mastery blocks a wizard from ever developing their own mastery of a spell, I think there's good reason to believe it's at least as much the later as it is the former.
And I think we're better off learning things like the secrets of Gazul's Cult and Arcane Khazalid and passing them down to Eiki than we are spells. As they're genuinely unique secrets that she can use to inform and expand her foundationl understanding of the world and go on to help her develop a better personal paradigm rather than forcing her into a Mathilde shaped strait-jacket.
Masteries are not guaranteed. The odds of Eike getting any mastery is low. The odds of getting a mastery on a specific spell is even lower. The odds of that mastery being better than Mathilde's mastery... Do I need to say more?
And that's even before we get into the fact that I would love to see a cute little moment wherein a master passes on one of their most personal spells to an apprentice as a coming of age thing.
And that's even before we get into the fact that I would love to see a cute little moment wherein a master passes on one of their most personal spells to an apprentice as a coming of age thing.
I frankly don't even want her to learn the advanced spells right now anyway. There's still a bunch more of the lower ranks, and given how fast she learns them (3 per turn when mostly but not fully dedicated to it), she'll easily be able to cover the full set of relatively simple ones. We can then teach her the more advanced stuff like shadowstead and such while she has +2 magic from now, so she can actually put it into practice, and also not be some sad halftaught plaitling when she goes out (dwarve standards ho!).
As far as I'm concerned, the mastery for shadowstead is irrelevant for this choice. I have an opinion on it, but for this it doesn't matter either way if you want her to get it from Mathilde, develop it herself, or want to have Mathilde's but don't think she will get it. Because this round shouldn't involve that spell anyway.
Spell choice:
[X] [SPELL] Sounds
[X] [SPELL] Magic Mapping
Sounds has a surprisingly small lead, for being super important to get a +1. Magic Mapping is great and very useful for Eike. The other top choice are good too, but I think this one should be above Skywalk. Though if it doesn't end up there, then it's no big deal either
As far as I'm concerned, the mastery for shadowstead is irrelevant for this choice. I have an opinion on it, but for this it doesn't matter either way if you want her to get it from Mathilde, develop it herself, or want to have Mathilde's but don't think she will get it. Because this round shouldn't involve that spell anyway.
Spell choice:
[X] [SPELL] Sounds
[X] [SPELL] Magic Mapping
Sounds has a surprisingly small lead, for being super important to get a +1. Magic Mapping is great and very useful for Eike. The other top choice are good too, but I think this one should be above Skywalk. Though if it doesn't end up there, then it's no big deal either
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- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't think the following is necessarily a solution to this dilema, (AP cost and timing-wise it most likely does not fit,) but it has brought up an idea I think is worth considering on it' own: I think it would be very worthwhile to codify Mathilde's Shadowrider mastery. We've long thought about how useful a codified Shaddow Dager mastery would be, not least because Regimand asked for it. But of Mathilde's seven mastered spells, the other spell that I think would be worth codifying is Shadowrider. The sheer travel time and range Mathilde has been able to get out of her magic superhorse is massive, and that capability has been gamechanging many times. So much so that it took acquiring a personal helicoper gyrobomber to surpass it. But unlike gyrobombers, we could give this spell to mearly every shadow magister if we manage to codify it. Many more than Shadow Dagger, even, as this is only Moderately Complicated instead of Fiendishly Complex.
Two obstacles make codifying this spell more difficult: Its original spell was based on an understanding of Ulgu that Mathilde does not naturally grasp, and Mathilde's unfamiliarity with normal horses. These factors are likely to bump up the difficulty of codifying the spell significantly. However, not only is this spell a tier of difficulty easier than the other spell we want to codify. But frankly I just think Mathilde is skilled enough to handle it. She's got a raw +29 Learning score, she has her personal tower complex, she has a ridiculous library with a massive book budget, and she's made and codified her own spells before. The penalties and difficulty might be big, but I think Mathilde's ability to tackle this kind of problem are even bigger.
Perhaps not something to do anytime soon, but I say it's an action worth the AP it costs to do, and one with very much surmountable odds of success.
Two obstacles make codifying this spell more difficult: Its original spell was based on an understanding of Ulgu that Mathilde does not naturally grasp, and Mathilde's unfamiliarity with normal horses. These factors are likely to bump up the difficulty of codifying the spell significantly. However, not only is this spell a tier of difficulty easier than the other spell we want to codify. But frankly I just think Mathilde is skilled enough to handle it. She's got a raw +29 Learning score, she has her personal tower complex, she has a ridiculous library with a massive book budget, and she's made and codified her own spells before. The penalties and difficulty might be big, but I think Mathilde's ability to tackle this kind of problem are even bigger.
Perhaps not something to do anytime soon, but I say it's an action worth the AP it costs to do, and one with very much surmountable odds of success.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Boney has said Masteries are mostly narrative based before. I'm not sure if that applies to Eike learning spells, but it might be worth keeping in mind.
The form masteries takes certainly has a narrative component, but when they happen is dictated by the dice. We know this because every time we could see the dice.
The thing is I do not think we have ever had a mastery happen without a crit. Not all crits in casting lead to mastries, but a mastery cannot happen without a crit, or at least it has not so far. Boney can of course choose to have one work off narative alone.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think even if she crits it's not at all guaranteed Eike would get the Mastery. It could just end up being that she learns the spell quickly enough that she has extra time to learn more spells than she otherwise would.
And, personally, I think it's entirely possible that Eike could get a Shadowsteed Mastery of her own that's better in some ways than Mathilde's. I want her to be her own person.
And, personally, I think it's entirely possible that Eike could get a Shadowsteed Mastery of her own that's better in some ways than Mathilde's. I want her to be her own person.
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The argument "Eike could get her own better masteries if we don't teach her" feels like it's just gaming the system to her detriment. This isn't rolling a gacha to see what pops out, it's the responsibility Mathilde took on to teach Eike what she needs to survive on her own as a Journeyman.
Like, not to give Regimand guff for being more a father figure than a mentor, but Mathilde was really not prepared for the world and ran into situations almost immediately where she could have just died for lack of necessary skills and caution. And while Eike seems like the type to have a more 'normal' Journeying, the conspiracy just goes to show nobody gets to choose where their Journey will take them.
Like, not to give Regimand guff for being more a father figure than a mentor, but Mathilde was really not prepared for the world and ran into situations almost immediately where she could have just died for lack of necessary skills and caution. And while Eike seems like the type to have a more 'normal' Journeying, the conspiracy just goes to show nobody gets to choose where their Journey will take them.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
This is an excluded middle argument. You can easily hold the position "we should prepare Eike more for her Journey than Regimand did ours" (though I will note that Mathilde seems to have been a bit of a poor student, cf "she straight-up forgot most of her Petty and Lesser spells") and the position "we should not seek to pass on our Masteries to Eike." There are so many things we can do to prepare Eike for her Journey that don't involve Masteries! We've done a bunch of them and we're doing more!
I'm fine having Mathilde teach Eike Shadowsteed eventually, because I agree with @Alliterate that narratively it makes most sense for Eike's first true spellwork of Ulgu, touching actual shadow magics and not just Ulgu's take on spell effects that any Wind can do, to be under the personal attention of her Master. I think that's a great scene idea and I want to read it. I just agree strongly with @Parabola that I really want to see what relationship Eike develops with Ulgu of her own, not just adopting Mathilde's paradigm, and so I don't particularly want to actively try to pass on our Mastery. If it happens, it happens, but I'd rather leave it in Ranald's hands (like Aethyric Armour was) than have Mathilde be the sort of person who deliberately tries to make her student do things the same way she does them.
(Codifying Shadowrider as a separate spell in its own right would be a different matter, because that involves translating the Mastery to the "universal" Ulgu paradigm, rather than being reliant on Mathilde's specific paradigm. That's totally fine, because it doesn't involve other people being required to adopt our way of thinking, which is the thing I object to.)
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- Location
- Aotearoa
My understanding is that it's at least as much about a shared terminology and frame of reference, rather than just whether a random Mastery is passed down. You can't say the College model has prevented us from developing our own understanding of Ulgu, arguably deeper than Regimands'.
Plus, someone will be teaching Eike spells. So while the considerations of us being busy, and their more generic nature, means I don't mind the Lesser spell book being filled out in College classes, when it comes to her first real Ulgu spells I certainly don't prefer that she shares her paradigm with Random College Tutor A rather than Mathilde.
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chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
There is more utility in being able to have multiple people working in the same niche (school) and sharing their results than there is a maximum focus on individuality.
Even if one wizard finds themselves unable to scribe a spell to the academic standard, each new generation gets another shot at expansion and simplification. As the years go on, spells that one person can do become spells that one school can do, and spells from special schools become mainstream.
There's nothing to say that an apprentice with a strong grounding in their master's work will definitely not be the best they can be, but there's plenty to say that what they'll get for that effort is worthwhile in its own right.
Mathilde's personal mastery of just Shadowsteed alone is almost enough to redefine what you hire the Grey College for. Eike getting that *and* a leg up on learning the personal spells we will continue to come up with throughout our career will do more for her than forcing her to build her own house from scratch.
"My casting style's special flair is that I share it with a Magister Lord" is an Isekai Cheat Skill.
Even if one wizard finds themselves unable to scribe a spell to the academic standard, each new generation gets another shot at expansion and simplification. As the years go on, spells that one person can do become spells that one school can do, and spells from special schools become mainstream.
There's nothing to say that an apprentice with a strong grounding in their master's work will definitely not be the best they can be, but there's plenty to say that what they'll get for that effort is worthwhile in its own right.
Mathilde's personal mastery of just Shadowsteed alone is almost enough to redefine what you hire the Grey College for. Eike getting that *and* a leg up on learning the personal spells we will continue to come up with throughout our career will do more for her than forcing her to build her own house from scratch.
"My casting style's special flair is that I share it with a Magister Lord" is an Isekai Cheat Skill.
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- Location
- Aotearoa
I think that's a bit of an overstatement, it was framed as us having gotten out of practice with spells we didn't use
(So we should fill out all or nearly all the lesser spells, before Eike sets off. Plus I want to add at least Take No Heed, which I think she'll make great use of, synergising with her Seen Not Heard Trait and general see-me-but-not-notice-me approach.)
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- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Sure, but if we're going to generalize to the narrative* how different the mechanics of Apprenticeship were in character creation vs. how they are when we're the Master and use that to draw unflattering conclusions about Regimand as a teacher, I think it's only fair to draw unflattering conclusions about Mathilde as a student as well.
*Which, for the record, I think we shouldn't; I'd be much more on-board with narrative interpretation "Eike is unusually talented/prepared" (which is supported by the fact that multiple LMs wanted to take her on, not just us) than "Regimand was unusually bad" or "Mathilde is an unusually good teacher or was an unusually bad student."
- Location
- Utrecht
Honestly, there are 9 relatively simple spells. Teaching Eike one Mathilde style spell of that tier still leaves eight possible masteries.
That particular mastery is also "Dämmerlichtreiter branding."
Just put on a Witch Hunter hat, there the Dämmerlichtreiter can suddenly be in two places at once.
Muddy the water...
Or should i say, Mystify the Water
That particular mastery is also "Dämmerlichtreiter branding."
Just put on a Witch Hunter hat, there the Dämmerlichtreiter can suddenly be in two places at once.
Muddy the water...
Or should i say, Mystify the Water