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My theory on the Slayer Kings: the oaths of kingship (assuming there is such a thing, certainly seems like a dwarfy thing to do and irl human monarchies have them) taken by any given successor upon his ascension vary slightly between each hold, and Karak Kadrins just happened to be stricter than most on the issue of upholding the oaths sworn by your predecessors, to the point that it includes the slayer oath where other versions in other karaks would not.

Seperately, one should also consider that the first person to inherit the slayer king title may have been deeply grieving his father and not have been trying all that hard to wiggle out of slayerdom.
 
Cultural expectations cannot have been 'create a novel kind of conflict of interest'. I know I am down on dwarfish conservatism often, but this is a case of dwarfish radicalism radically screwing up, for whatever reason. This is not who the dawi are except in so far that once it became tradition it was hard to change, but for once that isn't the main problem.
I do not feel like this is anykind honest reading of what my argument was.
I am not arguing that dwarves intentionally created the situation, or there was a single reason that caused.
But sometimes several conflicting rules and/or expectations can end up with a clusterfuck.

Your basic assumptions seems to be that this is dumb, and therefore anyone who caused it was dumb, and completely ignore any possibility that there may be lot more going into creating the situation tha we know of.
 
Perhaps the reason the Slayer Kings exist is that Baragor screwed up, and instead of swearing the Slayer Oath as Baragor Drakebeard, swore it as the King of Karak Kadrin. Which means that abdicating wouldn't fix the problem, just force whoever became King into the same situation (which means that abdicating isn't an option). That would mean that the only solutions (that aren't the current strategy of "fulfill both") are a) ignore the Oath, which the Dawi aren't going to do, or b) get rid of the position of King of Karak Kadrin somehow, which the Dawi are also not going to do.
That could also be a thing.

"Dwarfs stuck doing something because one of their ancestors was really shitty and made a bad decision for them", would also be on-theme.

As well as the Dwarf "not-talking-about-it" methods of bypassing unpleasant truths and unpleasant decisions of the past.

Might also explain why Karak Kadrin and the Ironfists are treated differently from other Slayers too like I theorized; treated with more honor.

It's because the whole of the Karaz Ankor slowly and politely decided to "let" the Ironfists "get away with" not upholding Baragor Ironfist's socially/lineage-ally suicidal decision.

"The King is allowed to make this policy decision, but the decision is stupid, but it has to be carried out somehow; find a way to square this circle with minimal shame and minimal dysfunction for the individuals and the society involved."

In which case, this would not be an example of a Dwarf maladaptiveness -- because they adapted to something bad/rash/stupid one of their ancestors made.

It doesn't look like "adaptation" to us humans; but that's a human perspective.

To Dwarfs, that is bypassing and adapting to things. You have to do the thing or uphold the responsibility your ancestors did -- especially if your ancestor was somebody important, like the King of a major hold -- but you also have to make it reasonable and not fucking ruin everything upholding it, so.
 
Right, well, let's look at it this way -- how much and what kind of harm does the Slayer Oath deal to each King Ironfist?

It's probably a huge shame and stress on them. That probably has social considerations... though given it's been centuries and the deed and circumstances have themselves become mythologized, and also become somewhat accepted, and the Ironfists are treated differently from the way other Slayers are treated... it seems plain to see that an Ironfist Slayer is viewed differently from a normal random Slayer in Dwarf society.

So, how maladaptive an institution is it, actually?

If he can still function as a King -- albeit feeling shitty, and knowing he'd have to leave that shame for his kids, and his kids' kids, and so on -- then... that still functions. You might say that that feeling of shame is counter-productive -- especially because it might result in some people deciding not to have kids and thus potentially there goes the whole thing. Except that goes into the feeling of responsibility that Dwarfs have; they'll have 4 kids as necessary as they feel the responsibility strongly too.

So how do you say that the Slayer Oath as an institution is maladaptive? Or that the Ironfist thing is a maladaptive institution?

Because the Dwarfs as a whole are bothered by Slayers and Slayerdom?

But that's a human perspective. It's an external perspective, too. One held by somebody who does not have the values of the civilization, or race, involved. And also does not hold the psychology of the race and culture to boot too.

Let me ask something else; what if it's not Slayerhood that makes Dwarfs and the Karaz Ankor miserable, what if it's the circumstances and all the troubles and problems of the Warhammer World that make them miserable?

What if the reason they feel miserable is because they took a series of bad blows, which felt like they continued on for millennia?

Maybe the solution to that is to not care about what happened to their civilization, their culture, their heritage, their very lineage, their very religion too. That is easy for us in the real world to say; it's harder for a Dwarf to say or feel, especially if they are a Karaz Ankor dwarf.

Too, as I keep hammering on about this, Dwarf psychology and the requirements of keeping up Divine Great Works/Precursor Tech might require having institutions (and peoples/psychologies) who can keep things going for millennia; which require standards commensurate with that task and challenge. All to live in a difficult and challenging world with magic Chaos daemons and Goblins and other foes.

You cannot just toss away one part of Dwarf society and assume that Dwarf society would be able to improve and get out of its tailspin; and then assume that they can then put that brick back into their society and start being as maximally responsible as before.

And yes, I am thinking that Slayerhood -- or rather, the things that surround Slayerhood and Slayer Oaths and that might lead to Dwarfs taking them, to feeling strongly enough about their failures that they do this -- are all big things that connect to either Dwarf psychology, or to Dwarf culture or to institutions that keep some of their ancient things running.

I'm assuming that while a given Slayer Oath might not be necessary, the fact that Slayerhood exists, or that the Ironfists became Slayer Kings after some great failure, all have reasons. Both reasons in terms of why it happened, and also why and how it connects to Dwarf society/culture/psychology.

But if one doesn't believe in Dwarf social values, or doesn't agree or think Dwarf psychology (and the culture that came from it) necessarily might result in something like that... then one would not find any acceptable reason for things like Slayer Oaths to begin with. And so there would be no way to really explain it, because you'd be working on entirely different foundations or assumptions.

Not going to lie this is getting a bit frustrating. When did I claim anything about what makes dwarfs generally miserable? This is what I mean about straw men, of course that's caused by the world being shit and not the Slayer Oath. What does that have to do with putting someone under conflicting oaths being bad for their mental well being? You are taking one exceptional and unusual situation in one hold and expanding it to being vital to not just dwarf society but the whole species. Sometimes people fuck up and that applies to dwarfs as much as humans. The tragic part about dwarfs as opposed to humans is that their culture tends to enshrine the places where their ancestors were wrong as much as where they were right. That does not make them worse than humans who tend to make the same mistakes over and over again, but it does mean that we should recognize the fallibility of dwarfs as much as that of humans.

In short that the Ironfists became Slayer Kings is 'any given Slayer Oath' in my eyes, no different from that that poor kid whom Belegar was bemoaning back in K8P unless and until proven otherwise. You constructed a very elaborate reason for why it would be different that involves Ancestors and Great Works, but all of that is speculation and in its absence 'someone fucked up' is still the more reasonable answer. After all there are numerous ways in which a person dwarf or not could fuck up and when we are talking about kings, high priests etc... their fuck ups tend to be magnified by their power.
 
*thinks*

This is a good thought, but it can't be that, the ultimate reason for the First slayer king is not known publicly which if it were a Karak wide problem that risked a mass swearing of the oath it would be.
There's been mentions of "inducing forgetfulness" in Uthar's story (iirc).

It's been four millennia since then.

The dwarfs that were alive at the time could have sworn an oath not to burden the next generation with that shame.
Their King would absolve them of their shame, by taking it onto himself... kinda like a grudge. If you can't fix it yourself, the next level up will handle it (clan -> karak -> karaz-ankor).
 
There's been mentions of "inducing forgetfulness" in Uthar's story (iirc).

It's been four millennia since then.

The dwarfs that were alive at the time could have sworn an oath not to burden the next generation with that shame.
Their King would absolve them of their shame, by taking it onto himself... kinda like a grudge. If you can't fix it yourself, the next level up will handle it (clan -> karak -> karaz-ankor).

If we are talking a Karak wide problem, major discontent, someone not of Kadrin would have heard about it before any oaths could be sworn. I don't think you can get tens of thousands of dwarfs to clam up on a dime. A council chamber full of them like what happened in Eight Peaks after 'die well'? Sure that would work. Some carefully prepared professionals like the dwarfs who melted down the gold Belegar found in that old bank vault? Works given the prep. But a whole Karak in the midst of what would have been major social unrest? Someone would have noticed.
 
My own theory posits some Deep Lore explanation for it all -- presupposing that if a hereditary Slayer Oath exists, it implies there was probably some great shame and thus great failed responsibility or fuck-up involved, and puts together a few explanations to explore or theorize what that reason might be.

But not everything has to be a mythical or narrative event or to have a Great Reason behind it; IronFist's and deathofrats0808's reasons are also perfectly fine explanations. And they help craft a world that also make sense, as well as the ways that the events shaped the Hold and the Empire, and the ways that people bore it, and ameliorated it, and managed to deal with it, and the contributed to world-building (of Dwarf history, as well as Dwarf legal matters and psychology) as a whole.

If either, or some combination, of their ideas is correct... then the Slayer Kings are a more prosaic fuck-up or tragedy, rather than a Deep Lore and mythology issue. As well as the method that the Dwarfs are using to deal with it.

The Kings of Karak Kadrin aren't expected to go out and commit suicide. They wear armor. They aren't looked at as being as equivalently untrustworthy and unreliable as any random Slayer ((as otherwise you would have seen a lot more evidence of such probably)). The dwarfs of Karak Kadrin as a whole labored to try to square-the-circle of Baragor's proclamation (or his situation) and somewhat managed to ameliorated it; the Kings of Karak Kadrin labored to make up for a great shame or a big fuckup decalaration on Baragor's part, and rehabilitated their image in the eyes of the rest of the Karaz Ankor and thus are not viewed as Slayer-level unreliable by default. And lot of "quiet forgetting" or "not talking about things" took place by the people, by the Karaz Ankor, by who knows who. And Karak Kadrin remains functional-ish. Even cosmopolitan in some regards, such as with trade. Despite being known as the Slayer Hold, it was looking into making a canal or passage that wind up annoying (IIRC) Ostermark and so on, caring about trade.

Dwarf problems and Dwarf manias, have to be dealt with with Dwarf solutions. Sometimes those solutions don't look like how a human would solve them -- "Why not just be more reasonable about this?" -- but they're still a solution or a way to deal with things. Being still hung up on something that happened ~3100 years ago, or being influenced by something that long ago, might seem unreasonable, but, eh... different world, different people.
 
Dwarf problems and Dwarf manias, have to be dealt with with Dwarf solutions. Sometimes those solutions don't look like how a human would solve them -- "Why not just be more reasonable about this?" -- but they're still a solution or a way to deal with things. Being still hung up on something that happened ~3100 years ago, or being influenced by something that long ago, might seem unreasonable, but, eh... different world, different people.

Fair enough.
 
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