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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Bows in the hands of a trained archer fire faster than both crossbows and guns.
They are lighter and more portable than crossbows (a slim weapon, as opposed to the crossbow's boxy profile)
They are more rugged, in that they neither rust (firearms), nor have mechanical loading/firing mechanisms (heavy crossbows)

The greatest advantage current firearms have over bows is armour penetration, which is not that important when you take into account that the Eonir's primary opponent are beastmen. The added stopping power helps, of course, but I think the upper three advantages I mentioned more than make up for it.

Given the elven lifespan and the rate at which they reproduce, I don't even consider the increased ease of use for Crossbows and Guns much of a factor.
 
I suspect the elves won't pick up the firearm for a while due to cultural and religious reasons. After all, a big part of being an elf is "mantling" their gods. When the elves go to war, they mantle Khaine or Eldrazor (or in the case of the Eonir, Ulric). But handguns don't fit into any of those gods's conceptual space. It could fall under Kurnous for hunting, but lacks the element of wilderness. It could fall under Vaul the craftsman, but channelling Vaul when you want to kill is probably deeply wrong for the elves (I know Asarnil did it, but he was, in Boney's words, "playing silly buggers" with the whole thing).

You might be able to slide cannons under Addaioth's (god of wrath and flame) portfolio, though.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I suspect the elves won't pick up the firearm for a while due to cultural and religious reasons. After all, a big part of being an elf is "mantling" their gods. When the elves go to war, they mantle Khaine or Eldrazor (or in the case of the Eonir, Ulric). But handguns don't fit into any of those gods's conceptual space. It could fall under Kurnous for hunting, but lacks the element of wilderness. It could fall under Vaul the craftsman, but channelling Vaul when you want to kill is probably deeply wrong for the elves (I know Asarnil did it, but he was, in Boney's words, "playing silly buggers" with the whole thing).

You might be able to slide cannons under Addaioth's (god of wrath and flame) portfolio, though.
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I can see the elves experimenting behind closed doors. Your not gonna see cannons from them for a while. But when they roll them out I suspect them to be pretty damn good. Or at least, have a special flair to them that sets it apart form dwarf and human weapons.

I speak more about the high elves here than the wood elfs.
 
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BaseDeltaZero said:
Gestures broadly at the EIC.
Particularly the canal.

The entire Skaven Loot Debacle.

I'm not gonna go through the entire quest, but... there's quite a few instances of 'yes, this benefits the Empire... but we're gonna make damn sure it benefits us most.'
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EIC: That thing is very beneficial for the empire and is doing pretty much nothing for us beyond provide a spy network that tells us if the EIC goofs and goes bad.
The money we keep dumping into beneficial projects.

Skaven goodies: We gave that away, and only ever had the best inttions for the stuff. This is not Mathilde horting monetary items, at most she is horting knowledge, which is very much not against the vow.

As for the generic one... there is nothing wrong with "beneficial for both", and I never saw anything that didn´t put the empire first.

In other words, even if I prioritise a certain goal, that doesn´t mean I need to needlessly shoot my own feet on all other fronts.
 
Valmond said:
If benefitting you more than other people equals harming them, then we are committing murder everytime Mathilde eats breakfast.
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It's not just benefiting you more. It's also harming every tradesman whose fortune depends on a different route. The prime example is Marienburg, which we don't care about, but there are also a large number of Imperials.

Sparsebeard said:
At the very least I'd expect sound to be a problem with guns. They probably don't want to alert every beastmen for miles with the sound of gunshots.
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That's a good argument against using guns... exclusively.
I suspect you'll need a good rate of fire and accuracy, beyond normal guns, in order to get much appeal. The fancy, advanced guns, though, they could have some merit.

It's just that those are, well, extraordinary, and Elves have a lot of semi-justified smugness about them regarding the value of human crafts, so they're probably not going to seeking such guns, and as for the Dwarfs...
Yeah.

(They're still using the last high tech weapon they collaborated with the Dwarfs to build, though).
 
Jeopardizer said:
How do handguns (a tool made exclusively for violence and murder) not fall under Khaine? He is neither Khorne nor Ulric, he doesn't have to disapprove not doing it close and personal.
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Most mass-produced guns aren't very accurate yet and are for mass fire, not marksmanship. Such a gun is certainly a tool of war, but probably not of murder. More accurate artisanal pieces are much more murder-y, of course.
 
BaseDeltaZero said:
It's not just benefiting you more. It's also harming every tradesman whose fortune depends on a different route. The prime example is Marienburg, which we don't care about, but there are also a large number of Imperials.
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And making a gunpowder factory harmed merchants who would have sold the worse powder for higher prices.
By casting shadowsteed we harm stablehands who would have to be hired to help with our horse otherwise.
By making our own robes we harm the wizard that could have sold one to us.
The definition of "harm" here is so broad that it stops meaning anything.

Also, we are a grey magister, the secret police of the colleges, the spies, assassins, executioners, we harm people by design in order to serve the empire.

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Tasoli said:
No there is not. No Imperial was harmed in the making of this canal.
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Technicly there were those people who got food poisoning, but that's not on us. :V
 
Valmond said:
And making a gunpowder factory harmed merchants who would have sold the worse powder for higher prices.
By casting shadowsteed we harm stablehands who would have to be hired to help with our horse otherwise.
By making our own robes we harm the wizard that could have sold one to us.
The definition of "harm" here is so broad that it stops meaning anything.
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"It is a heavy weight to carry, to take the business of your fellow man. But we deal reduced profit margins to the inefficient to prevent the deadweight loss of society as a whole. Never forget that."
-Abelhelm, probably, if he had pursued academic economics instead of Witch-Hunting
 
LockedMind said:
Most mass-produced guns aren't very accurate yet and are for mass fire, not marksmanship. Such a gun is certainly a tool of war, but probably not of murder. More accurate artisanal pieces are much more murder-y, of course.
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Hochland Long-rifles exist.
picklepikkl said:
"It is a heavy weight to carry, to take the business of your fellow man. But we deal reduced profit margins to the inefficient to prevent the deadweight loss of society as a whole. Never forget that."
-Abelhelm, probably, if he had pursued academic economics instead of Witch-Hunting
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Given his Stewardship, that might have been a much less effective career path.
 
Mopman43 said:
Hochland Long-rifles exist.
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Clearly a khainite plot.

Good thing Hochland doesn't exist.

I expect that if the wood elves ever make use of firearms it'll be grown from a tree and fire acorns that are horribly effective. It's just in their aesthetic. I don't know if they even got the resource base to make gunpowder in large enough amounts to supply an army, so the magical way might just be better for them.
 
Valmond said:
And making a gunpowder factory harmed merchants who would have sold the worse powder for higher prices.
By casting shadowsteed we harm stablehands who would have to be hired to help with our horse otherwise.
By making our own robes we harm the wizard that could have sold one to us.
The definition of "harm" here is so broad that it stops meaning anything.
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Slight difference in degree there. Tiny personal interactions are on such different scale that they can't really be prepared. Or prevented.
We're still using considerable financial power to choose winners, and the winner we chose is ourself.
Robes and shadowsteeds are also A: Not wealth, and B: Obviously of direct and practical use to our cause.

Valmond said:
Also, we are a grey magister, the secret police of the colleges, the spies, assassins, executioners, we harm people by design in order to serve the empire.
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Which is why harming Marienburg is not a problem.


... actually, no, Marienburg is a problem. This almost started a war. That's something, alright. Grey Magisters are all those things, but they are not policymakers. Though this being Warhammer and all, it may be the view of the policymakers as a whole that of course going to war to achieve <INSERT GAIN HERE> is good.
Moreover, we had personal interest in this whole affair because of the EIC. That's going to bias us. Whenever we have to judge 'does this serve the Empire' re: the EIC, which is, y'know, our job, whether it also benefits us is on the scale.
Maybe it won't actually bias us. But it does sound like a good reason to, I dunno, have some rule against the people who make those decisions having a personal stake.


Tasoli said:
No there is not. No Imperial was harmed in the making of this canal.
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That is absurd. Like, outright absurd. There are certainly people who will suffer financially from the completion of the canal. Their routes are now further from principle trade routes, or they're losing out to imported goods, or...



LockedMind said:
And those are an example of "More accurate artisanal pieces" I mentioned. They don't equip whole regiments with them.
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I think they equip at least one whole regiment with them, but yeah, they're generally a rarer weapon.

An elf-made gun would likely be comparable to a hochland long rifle, and they could cottage build their way to whole armies of them given a bit (which in their case might be 'a century', mind) of time to start up. It is an open (and contentious) question whether Elves or Dwarfs are better crafters.


agumentic said:
I am sure wood elves' archers are capable of basically magic feats of shooting through the forest as if it was not there.
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I'm pretty sure shooting through woodland terrain like it wasn't there is specifically a rule some of their archers have, yes.

Though guns definitely have better kinematic range.
 
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Angelform said:
How much does range matter to a people who predominantly fight in forests?
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If the range is better, shouldn't the penetrative power be stronger? The Eonir are mostly fighting beastmen anyway, so it's probably less useful.

Also, bows are lighter and easier than crossbows, and have a higher fire rate. A well experienced archer (like say, a 300-years old Elf) can shoot 12 arrows in one minute, while an experienced crossbowman shoots only 4. As Elves have smaller armies (and the Eonir probably have a small population even by Elven standards), improving the rate of fire sounds like a good idea.
 
K von Carstein said:
If the range is better, shouldn't the penetrative power be stronger? The Eonir are mostly fighting beastmen anyway, so it's probably less useful.
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Not necessarily. And there are some beastmen with hides tough as metal.

K von Carstein said:
As Elves have smaller armies (and the Eonir probably have a small population even by Elven standards), improving the rate of fire sounds like a good idea.
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Do they though? I've seen it suggested that the Elven population is pretty darn high. There's a long way to decline from a hyperpower, after all.
 
K von Carstein said:
If the range is better, shouldn't the penetrative power be stronger? The Eonir are mostly fighting beastmen anyway, so it's probably less useful.
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Not necessarily? You can use lighter and more aerodynamic projectiles to improve range without improving penetration.

On the tabletop bows generally have more range and guns generally have more power.
 
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BaseDeltaZero said:
That is absurd. Like, outright absurd. There are certainly people who will suffer financially from the completion of the canal. Their routes are now further from principle trade routes, or they're losing out to imported goods, or...
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I fail to see how merchants failing to adapt to new trade routes appearing is our fault, especially when said trade route was designed by a company who's primary charter is to facilitate free trade and the flow of goods and services for the benefit of the government and people of Stirland.

If anything, not creating the trade route is more damaging, because it forces Imperial traders to interact with an exploitive, semi-hostile polity. By creating the canal (which, once again, is something we didn't do), we are protecting Imperial merchants and their interests, and by extension, the interests of the Empire as a whole.
 
I once saw an argument about how Warhammer Elves don't like firearms and canons because it breaks the rules that they set.

Teclis once pointed out that the reason humans could never prove equal to elves is that elves set the criteria for 'equality' as 'what they are good at and how they do it'. and even if a human is good at something, if its not 'elfy' it doest count. e.g a human painter could be godlike in the Tilna style of sculpting, but if it's not in the Avelorn style of woodcarving then its not real art, such a pity, this one had a real chance at greatness!

elves judge humans by how good they are at being elves, so of course, they will fall short. (same can be said of dwarfs until sigmar and mathy, and even then they literal claim she is a dwarf in human drag.)

Guns break their rules, Swordmenship takes 3 years before you got the basics, 10 years for the bow, and a lifetime of effort for mastery.

you can build a gunline from people that never even touching the things in 6 months, and human nobles master pistols as an on and off hobby.

a Swordmasters of hoeth can spend centuries mastering cutting rain of arrows out of the air, an master pistoleer can often, if not most of the time, hit him anyways.

of course guns are cheap and tacky!
 
Chronic said:
Weeeell, not to be a drag, but I'm pretty sure Swordmasters of Hoeth have no more issues cutting bullets out of the air than they do arrows.
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are you sure, Tabletop yes, but it is sure is interesting that guns are left out of that bit of self-praising lore? :V

(but yes, they can probably do so for most, but that's why I said, master pistoleer. that's still 10 or so years of training vs hundreds.
 
BaseDeltaZero said:
I'm not gonna go through the entire quest, but... there's quite a few instances of 'yes, this benefits the Empire... but we're gonna make damn sure it benefits us most.'
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That is not benefiting ourselves at the expense of the Empire. That is just being an ambitious and non selfless minion. Because be honest, most servants are not going to serve their organization before even themselves if they are human. Working to have things benefit the Empire and also benefit us is just called being efficient. Benfit at the exepnse of the Empire would be doing actions that harm the or hinder the Empire for our own advancement.

The canal does not count, as that is something that will be long term good for the Empire even if Marienburg is throwing a fit over it in the short run.
 
The whole thing with saying Mathilde is breaking the vow of poverty because of the canal is absurd, even if you assume the base premise of 'its existence harms Imperials to an unacceptable degree' is correct, because Mathilde's not responsible for it. It's Wilhelmina's brainchild, proposed to and accepted by dwarves with zero input from Mathilde- saying it's her responsibility because she's part of EIC is like blaming her for a random coffee stain Wilhemina left on her desk.

The only interactions Mathilde has had relating to the canal that I can recall are suggesting to Wilhelmina that Marienburg might be behind the disease outbreak at the canal, and telling the Chamberlain that the dwarves would be both reluctant to stop the canal and willing to fight to preserve it (which is entirely true). Putting the responsibility for it on Mathilde's shoulders on that basis is incredibly egotistical, and assigns a massively distorted importance to her.

But more than that, let's go back to that fundamental assumption again, that the canal unacceptably harms imperials. The simple fact is that for the Empire as a whole that assumption is actually wrong; while individual merchants might be disadvantaged, far more stand to gain from the canal, and the Empire as a whole (not just the EIC, merchants, etc) will benefit significantly. That's why when the Chamberlain learned that the dwarves would back its construction with firepower he lost his reservations about the project; those worries were based around the short-term harm from Marienburg blockading until the canal was done, itself a concern because the Empire isn't in a solid enough position to absorb the losses, not because they'd outweigh the good of the canal once complete. With assurance that the military force would be available to break that blockade and prevent those losses, he's all for it.
 
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NSMS said:
The only interactions Mathilde has had relating to the canal that I can recall are suggesting to Wilhelmina that Marienburg might be behind the disease outbreak at the canal, and telling the Chamberlain that the dwarves would be both reluctant to stop the canal and willing to fight to preserve it (which is entirely true). Putting the responsibility for it on Mathilde's shoulders on that basis is incredibly egotistical, and assigns a massively distorted importance to her.
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Actually Mathilde is indrectly responsible for it - she introduced Wilhelmina to the dwarf in the meeting that started the entire thing in motion.

Thing is Mathilde had no idea that was going to happen.
 
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