- Location
- Finland
Most power is, in the end.
The vow has a function, but that function is not to keep grey magisters poor.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
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The vow has a function, but that function is not to keep grey magisters poor.
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
I do think I remember some word on the matter to that effect. A couple of the Greys we know may have even been subject to it.
Also could be related to this, which I believe even BoneyM expressed similarly.
The thing is, you only make a vague restriction that is widely textually tolerated... but specific, unspecified kinds of violations result in immediate, unaccounted death, and then you give it to an a group of young adults who are constitutionally prone to boundary pushing... if you want to kill a lot of them.
Or, at the least, you're very willing to do so.
One could suggest, then, that the purpose is establishment of terror, both internally and externally.
You only give people rope enough to hang themselves if you want them to hang.
- Location
- Earth
Wilhelmina was responsible for the canal, we had nothing to do with that.
What Skaven loot debacle? We didn't take money from the Skaven, we left that to Gretel.
We took a lot of artefacts/shady technology and went to research it, which is one of the duties of a Magister.
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
I think that may be referring to handing over the loot to the Golds in exchange for the secrets of Gehenna's Hounds?
Yes, that is what it is. It's framed as a poverty vow so we can't accept bribes to act against the Empire. The vow has a very big, very intentional loophole for enlightened self-interest.
After all, if we have avenues to make legitimate profit through our service to the Empire, that makes it less likely that we'll accept a bribe to act against it.
- Location
- Oklahoma
Getting told a secret to a spell in exchange for a mountain of tech isn't exactly enriching ourselves.
Kinda the exact opposite, the reason we made the deal was that the Golds would be able to research the pile a lot faster, resulting in quicker benefits to the Colleges and the Empire as a whole.
If it was all about what we personally would gain, we would have kept it
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
I know that, but it's the first thing that came to mind with from the words "Skaven loot debacle."
We mostly didn't research it. We kept it until someone came along and offered us, personally, something in exchange.
Now it's perhaps more reflective of the thread than Mathilde, but a significant group of people were offended by this. Most wanted to get as much out of it as possible.
Anyways, not gonna argue it ATM. I've kind of raised three possibilities, and I'm not sure which one (all of them?) is off base?
Going on with what I said earlier.
if I had one criticism of Boeny's writing, it is that they don't like pushing the thread for doing the right thing or taking a moral high ground.
I can't think of a time the thread has been right out punished for voting to do good. Yes, we don't get a benefit or two, lose a chance at a connection or have to do without the shines.
but we have never been made worse off by being good. It's never been hard.
but narratively, the easy way is only the easy way if the hard way is hard.
narratively, being good has to be a struggle at times or its just an easy pick, no matter out temping the bad road is.
if I had one criticism of Boeny's writing, it is that they don't like pushing the thread for doing the right thing or taking a moral high ground.
I can't think of a time the thread has been right out punished for voting to do good. Yes, we don't get a benefit or two, lose a chance at a connection or have to do without the shines.
but we have never been made worse off by being good. It's never been hard.
but narratively, the easy way is only the easy way if the hard way is hard.
narratively, being good has to be a struggle at times or its just an easy pick, no matter out temping the bad road is.
Mathilde has never used Ulgu to get rich. That is important. She's never even really tried to make money. Or to be more specific, there were several ventures that resulted in a big payout, but were motivated by something else (Pleasing Asarnil with the book, or pleasing Ranald with the mercenary gambling thing). And she's got several income streams, but those were either the result of something else (the fief), sort of happened and she went "why not?" (the EIC), or spite (we'll if she's going to fire me, then I'll keep the niter business).
Expecting people to be perfectly selfless at all times is foolish too (not to mention kind of unfair). Hell, even someone who is perfectly selfless can get screwed by that, becayse somone else isn't, or even just because it doesn't look perfectly selfless. Plus, you get the case where someone decides he might as well be hanged for a cow as for a chicken.
I do actually agree Mathilde has broken the Vow. It was back as spymaster, when she was embezzling money. It mostly went towards her student debts, and I'm not fussed about it (she did her job more than well), but there is a genuine case there.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
I understand the idea that being good 'should' be a constant struggle, but at a certain point that just becomes trying to insist that being good is flawed, somehow. Fundamentally what gives the forces of order in WHF a chance is working together. Sure, in other settings, doing good can hurt you, it can make you lose things, but being good is not always painful, and in WHF being bad is the satisfying but self-destructive route half the time.
Doing good IS the cost of doing good. Every good thing Mathilde has done has been at the expense of everything else Mathilde could have done with that time and those resources, including just kicking back and living a peaceful life.
- Location
- Norway
I think that might be because Mathilde has always been relatively powerful. She hasn't had incentive to do bad things for personal gain in a long time. It's the whole "mercy is the privilege of the strong" but with goodness instead.
- Location
- Oklahoma
Let's not forget all those times Mathilde almost died in service of her morals.
Like, 'died trying to do the right thing' is the most likely thing to get said at her funeral.
Like, 'died trying to do the right thing' is the most likely thing to get said at her funeral.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
I would like to ask why doing good needs to be personally destructive. Like, take a step back, instead of going 'mercy is the privilege of the strong', ask why all mercy is implied to be inherently dangerous in the first place. There are countless situations in which mercy can be personally difficult to grant, but unlikely or even impossible to backfire, so why must someone be powerful to 'risk' being good?
- Location
- Earth
We did lose someone once because we were trying to do good.
Drakenhof. Abelhelms death and the disaster it was in general.
No one forced Mathilde to go there, we had the option to stay back and keep doing spy mastery things, instead we helped. We were there when Abel died.
We risked Mathilde again during the K8P-5peaks down kerfuffle, and a few bad rolls may have caused Mathilde's death.
Mathilde almost died against the Violent Champion.
One day Mathilde's luck will run out, sadly. That's the price we pay. Everytime we do something good, Mathilde rolls to not die.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
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The downside to saving the Ice Witch's life (god I forgot her name) was that Mathilde almost died to a Champion of Khorne.
Mathilde does get "punished" with consequences, but she comes out successful because the dice rolls her way, and she's very good at survival.
Mathilde does get "punished" with consequences, but she comes out successful because the dice rolls her way, and she's very good at survival.
- Location
- Norway
My view is that the quote implies that it is much easier to be good when you are in a position of strength, that you have more resources and are less likely to suffer for it, but not that only the powerful can be good.
The way it relates to the thread is that since Mathilde is relatively powerful, and since most people aren't evil, we end up doing good things because we aren't incentivized to be evil.
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"The trouble is that we have a bad habit, encouraged by pedants and sophisticates, of considering happiness as something rather stupid. Only pain is intellectual, only evil interesting. This is the treason of the artist; a refusal to admit the banality of evil and the terrible boredom of pain."
Doing good is not so bland as to require a sprinkling of suffering to make it palatable.
Doing good is not so bland as to require a sprinkling of suffering to make it palatable.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
We aren't incentivised to do evil because other good people do good people things in return for us being good, though. Mathilde's in a position of strength because she's been a good person, and in turn others have recognised that and stood beside her. The idea's the wrong way around.