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so we haven't been beholden to the Vow of Poverty since being knighted
Spirit vs letter of the law. That kind of thinking might work for a 20th century CEO who treats the law like a security door he can put more money in to get more security, but I think the spirit of the law means far more in WHF. You can rule lawyer all you want, but that won't stop a knife in the dark or a furlough on the fire pit.
 
Laws of the Empire supercede internal Order Laws, so we haven't been beholden to the Vow of Poverty since being knighted, and pursuing an equivalent noble title or any rank would render Wilhelma's daughter immune to the Vow of Poverty too, which would be very useful for being CEO of the EIC, even if we were going for more of a *nudge nudge wink wink* spy network thing.
We're still beholden to the Vow of Poverty - "a Knight must have an estate from which they draw the income necessary to maintain their arms, armour, and retinue. " that is to say they draw the income necessary for performing the job of being a knight.

That's perfectly in-keeping with the fact we have to use our wealth in ways of direct relevance to our proper goals - being a knight just adds the goal of "be well equipped and able to hire and equip a full retinue of soldiers out of our income from investments and land".

EDIT: BTW, does anyone know how tall a Yhetee is? Either in fiction, or a comparison of their model height to that of an ogre.
 
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Laws of the Empire supercede internal Order Laws, so we haven't been beholden to the Vow of Poverty since being knighted, and pursuing an equivalent noble title or any rank would render Wilhelma's daughter immune to the Vow of Poverty too, which would be very useful for being CEO of the EIC, even if we were going for more of a *nudge nudge wink wink* spy network thing.
...I'm reminded that adoption is totally a thing. I mean, I doubt that this is actually how it would shake out, but still.
 
Also, it's been a long time now, but I know I forgot about it... so just to remind everyone in the thread because I saw some chatter about Vows of Poverty while we were discussing making Wilhelmina's daughter a grey wizard.


Laws of the Empire supercede internal Order Laws, so we haven't been beholden to the Vow of Poverty since being knighted, and pursuing an equivalent noble title or any rank would render Wilhelma's daughter immune to the Vow of Poverty too, which would be very useful for being CEO of the EIC, even if we were going for more of a *nudge nudge wink wink* spy network thing.

Edit: Also, we are technically a one-person dynasty now, with lands and stuff in Stirland that we might want to check in on one day.
Since our romantic interests seem to be heading away from natural offspring we could investigate methods of magical parthanogenesis or cloning to have lots of little Mathildes who will grow up to continue the Weber dynasty. Imagine how awesome it would be for our whole noble house to just be us and clones of ourself.
I'm extremely confident that acting that way would be nothing but a method for getting a very urgent summons from the Bursar.
 
Spirit vs letter of the law. That kind of thinking might work for a 20th century CEO who treats the law like a security door he can put more money in to get more security, but I think the spirit of the law means far more in WHF. You can rule lawyer all you want, but that won't stop a knife in the dark or a furlough on the fire pit.
Id argue that's exactly why we would want Wilhelma's daughter as a noble of some sort if she's going to be a Grey AND head of a very profitable company.

This isn't exactly letter vs spirit in my eyes either, Laws of the Empire are above the Rules of a College, that's pretty important stuff and any grey wizard who takes it upon themself to knife us in the back would be going against the spirit and letter of the law and articles of magic.
 
EDIT: BTW, does anyone know how tall a Yhetee is? Either in fiction, or a comparison of their model height to that of an ogre.

About the same height as Ogres, but usually hunched over. They're anatomically quite similar and believed to be related.

This isn't exactly letter vs spirit in my eyes either, Laws of the Empire are above the Rules of a College, that's pretty important stuff and any grey wizard who takes it upon themself to knife us in the back would be going against the spirit and letter of the law and articles of magic.

If it is possible to follow both laws of the Empire and the rules of a College at the same time, then the ideals of the Empire say that they should be. And it's very possible to follow both in this case by following the Vow of Poverty except as it pertains to the fief.

Also, it's hard to make a convincing rebuttal to a knife in the back on account of being dead.
 
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This isn't exactly letter vs spirit in my eyes either, Laws of the Empire are above the Rules of a College, that's pretty important stuff and any grey wizard who takes it upon themself to knife us in the back would be going against the spirit and letter of the law and articles of magic.
My whole point isn't that the Grey College would just knife you if you tried this. My point is that, in WHF Empire, there's always a Sword waiting to kill you. Nobles play games and push boundaries, but they do so completely aware that if they push too far, and cant be blocked by the law, then they will wake up one morning a head shorter.

Politics and Law is a different beast in this world; assuming getting a noble title would let a Grey act like a Gold isn't gonna play out how you want it. It'll just lead to escalating censureship until you stop or are dead.
 
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We're still beholden to the Vow of Poverty - "a Knight must have an estate from which they draw the income necessary to maintain their arms, armour, and retinue. " that is to say they draw the income necessary for performing the job of being a knight.
Nobody would care, but now that I think about it, aren't we not doing that? The spirit of the law is probably just that we have territory which we draw taxes from, but in Mathilde's case she just stuffs it back into the territory since she has no idea what to do with it. Imagine someone trying to pull Mathilde up on breaches of the law because she keeps letting her territory have all its income :V
 
Politics and Law is a different beast in this world; assuming getting a noble title would let a Grey act like a Gold isn't gonna play out how you want it. It'll just lead to escalating censureship until you stop or are dead.
I'm not saying we should start collecting piles of gold to decorate the hallways, but as far as Wilhelma's daughter (or grand-daughter as I'm remember now, maybe?) being a grey Wizard set to inherit the biggest trade company in the Eastern Empire... It just makes sense to me that we would pursue the extra layer of defense a noble title would confer as far as managing large amounts of money go.

I'll be honest, I don't think going for a Grey Wizard CEO was a great idea in the first place, and I would have argued a Gold Wizard would be much better, but the thread did as the thread decided and we've got a Grey Wizard CEO coming in, and that's definitely a situation where an uninformed Grey Wizard passing through seems like they might make an unfortunate assumption.
Would a noble title make them think twice? I think so.

Trying to say you own a highly profitable company, as its public CEO no less, as a Grey Wizard because of its use as a spying apparatus seems like it might not go well, but since we're doing that anyway I don't think it's wrong to try and at least get the letter of the law more firmly on our side, since this seems like a situation where the spirit is going to be ambiguous either way.
 
Imagine how awesome it would be for our whole noble house to just be us and clones of ourself.

Can't say I'm a fan of that.

Also what's wrong with adoption, adoption is great. Certainly plenty of orphans around, this is WHF.

(This is, of course, assuming Mathilde ever winds up wanting kids at all- which is not at all guaranteed. )
 
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I'm not saying we should start collecting piles of gold to decorate the hallways, but as far as Wilhelma's daughter (or grand-daughter as I'm remember now, maybe?) being a grey Wizard set to inherit the biggest trade company in the Eastern Empire... It just makes sense to me that we would pursue the extra layer of defense a noble title would confer as far as managing large amounts of money go.

It's not an extra layer of defence, it's a red herring. And one that's likely to scupper any benefit of the doubt, as it shows a pattern of trying to wriggle free of the Vow of Poverty instead of actually trying to act in the spirit of it.

I'll be honest, I don't think going for a Grey Wizard CEO was a great idea in the first place, and I would have argued a Gold Wizard would be much better, but the thread did as the thread decided and we've got a Grey Wizard CEO coming in, and that's definitely a situation where an uninformed Grey Wizard passing through seems like they might make an unfortunate assumption.
Would a noble title make them think twice? I think so.

The world you're envisioning where an incommunicado Grey Wizard would just start murdering other Grey Wizards without calling it in to the Order is a strange and terrifying one.
 
You have to imagine and try to understand the reasoning behind the Vow of Poverty. The Grey Order arguably has the best tools for making money hand over fist. If the Grey Order didn't have any moral compunction they'd have accumulated enough wealth to make the Gold Order look like beggers. But they'd also be on the fast track to a full Purge for mind raping half the Imperial Bureaucracy.

Their magic has massive room for abuse, and they were founded being aware of that. They are protected by the fact that the first person to draw a blade whenever a Grey steps out of line is another Grey.

At least that's my read on the Grey Order; feel free to correct me if I'm interpreting things wrong though.
 
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Honestly the easiest solution is what is most likely to happen: as Mathilde and Wilhelmina's heiress, something like a 70% stake passes to her, right? And she's going to be trained to run the whole thing. But instead of being CEO, promote a public face from within. They would handle all the money flow and day to day directives, while effective control still rests with the largest shareholders. In fact, make the CEO position something that the smaller stakeholders can select the candidate list for- it lets the games between them for "control" over the EIC obscure the fact that a wizard is setting goals and policy.

But Eike keeps her hands clean of all sorts of petty temptation, and gets the freedom to act as a grey wizard.

Plus, getting the money from the EIC in nice clean lump sum dividend payments will make the bursar happy- easier to keep track of where the money goes if it isn't a small trickle of in-kind and petty cash expenses.
 
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It doesn't seem like there was one shared pantheon in the time before Sigmar, as Taal was the God of the Taleutens and Ulric of the Teutogens, and the other tribes only seemed to start picking them up after they settled in the Reik Basin. That leaves Rhya and Manann as unknowns, and I'd speculate Rhya was either the Goddess of the Cherusens or an adoption of the Old Faith of the Belthani, and that Manann was the God of the Jutones. Whether the other patron gods have been forgotten, were Chaos Gods that were abandoned, or have faded into being minor regional Gods is an open question.

But it's entirely possible that the tribes shared a pantheon before they came into the Reik basin, and the Taleutens and Teutogens claim favour on the basis of tribal patrons. There's not much canon material of that era and a lot of it is vague and self-contradictory.

(there's also another possibility acknowledged in the material that Ulric, Taal, and Rhya all descend from a single deity with three seasonal facets)
Syncreticism, mutation, convergent evolution and splintering does complicate things a bunch.
Especially if you throw in pre-writing hero-deity figures as seed crystals, and tribal leaders or great warriors deliberately emulating their favored deity(like that stone which describes the Old World pantheon like a group of adventurers could easily have been a group of heroes packing heavy divine blessings from their specific deity)...and then their personal traits get blobbed into the deity's description when people start carving runestones.

A Great Mother/Earth Mother probably did arise multiple times, and then gets blobbed together because well, they do 90% similar things anyway.
And anywhere with antlered beasts probably has some kind of antlered king of the wild, because antlers be rad and crownlike - but this is easily substituted for the local biome apex predator if there is one(wolves, tigers, bears).
And Ulric's a pretty neat fit for the development of warfare, because wolves do organized combat pretty good and the tribes can recognize that and emulate that, copying wolves isn't a bad template for early warfare.

Lots of things which made sense to people at the time, and then passed down with the fiddly or inconvenient bits left out
 
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Edit: Also, we are technically a one-person dynasty now, with lands and stuff in Stirland that we might want to check in on one day.
Since our romantic interests seem to be heading away from natural offspring we could investigate methods of magical parthanogenesis or cloning to have lots of little Mathildes who will grow up to continue the Weber dynasty. Imagine how awesome it would be for our whole noble house to just be us and clones of ourself.
This has been gone over before. If we're having kids, adoption is the route.
 
wasn't it mentioned earlier in thread about a grey wizard running a chain of inns and no one side eyeing him for him having money because its obvious that the information potential is more important than the money but doesn't change the fact he had oodles of it

EDIT: we don't really get side eyed for owning a chunk of the eic and in the future its not that she'd be inheriting a company but she'd be inheriting her masters spy network and the money would just be a useful secondary to that
 
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wasn't it mentioned earlier in thread about a grey wizard running a chain of inns and no one side eyeing him for him having money because its obvious that the information potential is more important than the money but doesn't change the fact he had oodles of it
That would be Regimand: Mathilde's former Master when she was an apprentice and journeywoman.
 
wasn't it mentioned earlier in thread about a grey wizard running a chain of inns and no one side eyeing him for him having money because its obvious that the information potential is more important than the money but doesn't change the fact he had oodles of it
Also, it is legitimately earned money that comes from providing a service the empire needs.
And it's not just the spy network that makes it Ok, but also the service it provides while being a network.

"oh look, it's a goldmine trading company run by a lord magister Weber and her apprentice. I'm sure the bursar has no idea how much money it's making. I'll go take care of it myself. Choppity-chop, vow of poverty needs enforcement."
-said no grey wizard ever.
--
"The runic blade went snicker-snack,
She left him dead, and with his head,
She went reporting back."

I would continue,:V But i need to get to work
 
wasn't it mentioned earlier in thread about a grey wizard running a chain of inns and no one side eyeing him for him having money because its obvious that the information potential is more important than the money but doesn't change the fact he had oodles of it

EDIT: we don't really get side eyed for owning a chunk of the eic and in the future its not that she'd be inheriting a company but she'd be inheriting her masters spy network and the money would just be a useful secondary to that

There's two levels to consider:

First, the Grey Order policing itself and making sure all the magisters are being productive instead of harmful with their extremely easy-to-abuse magic. The Vow gives plenty of rope for the unscrupulous to hang themselves if they can't stick to the gigantic loopholes, but otherwise doesn't do too much.

Second, everybody else looking at the group of wizards wielding the wind of illusion and confusion and misdirection and saying to themselves, yep, totally trust them, nothing wrong going on there. See how they even swear this Vow of Poverty to show good faith? If those loopholes become widely known, then the Grey Order either needs to make an example, or otherwise lose legitimacy for being a bunch of oathbreakers. This is why we can't spend gold for favours.

Regimand doesn't own a chain of inns and neighborhoods in a highly scrutinized way.
The issue with the EIC is that it is not subtle. Mathilde gets away with it by being thousands of miles away and being mostly uninvolved in day to day operations, but Eike developing that same distance is going to be one of her main challenges assuming everything goes well in wizarding.
Edited for clarity/corrections
 
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"Ah, but if Stromfels works the same way as Rhya..." is about the point where the door gets kicked in by Witch Hunters. You can apply relentless logic and modern philosophical and economic terminology to the mainstream model until inconsistencies bubble to the surface if you really must, but most people in the setting don't have the ability, vocabulary, or desire to do so, and the Cults heavily and sometimes fatally discourage it. The Cults say worshipping good Gods results in good things and worshipping bad Gods results in bad things and prefer to leave it at that, and considering very bad things do start happening when a secret Cult to a naughty God starts getting influence most people accept that. If you go further into it you either get rebuffed or are given the 'gods like worship' or the 'gods are empowered by worship' model. If you go even further into it you start getting shunned at church and a man with a tall hat knocks on your door.

I think I went on a tangent and somehow failed at communicating my point. None of what you said here surprises me or is something I was questioning. I'll try to collect my thoughts and phrase my point better later.

Also, it's been a long time now, but I know I forgot about it... so just to remind everyone in the thread because I saw some chatter about Vows of Poverty while we were discussing making Wilhelmina's daughter a grey wizard.


Laws of the Empire supercede internal Order Laws, so we haven't been beholden to the Vow of Poverty since being knighted, and pursuing an equivalent noble title or any rank would render Wilhelma's daughter immune to the Vow of Poverty too, which would be very useful for being CEO of the EIC, even if we were going for more of a *nudge nudge wink wink* spy network thing.

Edit: Also, we are technically a one-person dynasty now, with lands and stuff in Stirland that we might want to check in on one day.
Since our romantic interests seem to be heading away from natural offspring we could investigate methods of magical parthanogenesis or cloning to have lots of little Mathildes who will grow up to continue the Weber dynasty. Imagine how awesome it would be for our whole noble house to just be us and clones of ourself.
Two things: A) There is no law that obliges nobles to be rich, just to have enough to fulfill their duties to their vassals and to their lieges. So there's no law here to completely supercede the Vow of Poverty and render it void. B) If the Vow of Poverty is an actual vow Mathilde took during her education and not just a misnamed Rule of Poverty then it still carries weight. More so if you subscribe to the idea that knights are supposed to be especially honorable, something that goes counter to breaking vows even if they make duties harder.
Honestly the easiest solution is what is most likely to happen: as Mathilde and Wilhelmina's heiress, something like a 70% stake passes to her, right? And she's going to be trained to run the whole thing. But instead of being CEO, promote a public face from within. They would handle all the money flow and day to day directives, while effective control still rests with the largest shareholders. In fact, make the CEO position something that the smaller stakeholders can select the candidate list for- it lets the games between them for "control" over the EIC obscure the fact that a wizard is setting goals and policy.

But Eike keeps her hands clean of all sorts of petty temptation, and gets the freedom to act as a grey wizard.

Plus, getting the money from the EIC in nice clean lump sum dividend payments will make the bursar happy- easier to keep track of where the money goes if it isn't a small trickle of in-kind and petty cash expenses.
This sounds like it would be close to ideal, but I see a few issues with it. The Empire doesn't seem to have any university MBA degrees. Wilhelmina's whole point was to raise someone who would know how to run the EIC both from a technical and a moral standpoint. Any replacements run the risk of being less competent, being less trustworthy or both. That is especially true if the CEO is elected by the nobles who aren't Anton.
 
Spirit vs letter of the law. That kind of thinking might work for a 20th century CEO who treats the law like a security door he can put more money in to get more security, but I think the spirit of the law means far more in WHF. You can rule lawyer all you want, but that won't stop a knife in the dark or a furlough on the fire pit.

Conversely the letter of the law matters less since rather than a complex modern judiciary with its mountains of laws and precedents to work from the ultimate arbitrator is 'the most popular local warlord'. Sticklers for the precise form of the law feudal lords to not make..
 
Spirit vs letter of the law. That kind of thinking might work for a 20th century CEO who treats the law like a security door he can put more money in to get more security, but I think the spirit of the law means far more in WHF. You can rule lawyer all you want, but that won't stop a knife in the dark or a furlough on the fire pit.
Less 'spirit of the law' and more 'arbitrary power', TBH.
A significant reason Mathilde gets away with violating the vow of poverty (which even as more of a vow of non-self-interest rather than poverty per se, we are increasingly violating) is because she's too powerful to punish.
 
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