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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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BoneyM said:
The Elves of Ulthuan worship the Gods in a more truly polytheistic fashion, and those among them that dedicate themselves to a single God are the exception rather than the rule - and presumably that continues to be true in Laurelorn. Bretonnia is mostly monotheistic under the Lady, Marienburg is culturally similar to the Empire, and Tilea and Estalia both claim Myrmidia as a primary deity. The Gospodars of Kislev are possibly the closest to polytheism with most paying roughly equal deference to their four historical Gods, but even then they're culturally influenced by the Empire - Ursun is being eclipsed by Ulric there of late, and the canonical future revival is much more monotheistic than historical worship of Ursun.
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The Empire could probably be described as having a generally henotheistic or monolatric populace.
 
Redshirt Army said:
There's a chance that in this timeline, the Speculum ends up being a Windherder project between Mathilde and Horstmann, since it really does seem to have some Ulgu thematics tied into it.
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Unless he already finished his work on it already. I don't think he was the sort to lug around mirrors to chaos wastes for shits and giggles.
 
13th Bee said:
The Empire could probably be described as having a generally henotheistic or monolatric populace.
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The problem with henotheism in the Empire is that a lot of people would agree that that's the case and then they'd all say at the same time 'and the one in charge is my god!' and then they start killing each other and the Witch Hunters need to start burning people until things settle down again. There are Ulricans that say they're clearly in charge and Sigmar was only elevated because Ulric allowed it, there are Sigmarites that say that Ulrican passed the crown to Sigmar, there are Taalites that still think King Taal is top dog and civilized Gods only continue to exist because he allows it, there are Manannites that point out that most of the world is ocean ergo Manann is best, there are even Ranaldites that think that all the other Gods are Ranald playing a prank on literally everyone. The Empire's situation is one where certain theological questions need to go unasked to keep the peace.

There's a theological trend where polytheistic religions tend to have a King of the Gods emerge, and often new ones replace the old as a reflection of worldly cultural trends or internal struggles. The Empire can be seen as the tension before that happens, or partway through the process of Sigmar eclipsing Ulric, or even Sigmar replacing Ulric who replaced Taal.
 
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pucflek said:
Unless he already finished his work on it already. I don't think he was the sort to lug around mirrors to chaos wastes for shits and giggles.
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I'm of the belief that if he finished his Speculum, not even Alric could stop him from being promoted to Lord Magister.

Maybe I'm overestimating it, but I firmly believe that the speculum is a True Masterwork.
 
BoneyM said:
The problem with henotheism in the Empire is that a lot of people would agree that that's the case and then they'd all say at the same time 'and the one in charge is my god!' and then they start killing each other and the Witch Hunters need to start burning people until things settle down again. There are Ulricans that say they're clearly in charge and Sigmar was only elevated because Ulric allowed it, there are Sigmarites that say that Ulrican passed the crown to Sigmar, there are Taalites that still think King Taal is top dog and civilized Gods only continue to exist because he allows it, there are Manannites that point out that most of the world is ocean ergo Manann is best, there are even Ranaldites that think that all the other Gods are Ranald playing a prank on literally everyone. The Empire's situation is one where certain theological questions need to go unasked to keep the peace.
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Witch Hunter: "And that's that. Everyone got the rioting out of their system? Or do we need a few more bodies?"
Peasant: "I feel like this method of punishment is a little sigmar centric-"
WH: "Don't you start"
 
pucflek said:
Unless he already finished his work on it already. I don't think he was the sort to lug around mirrors to chaos wastes for shits and giggles.
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There's at least a dozen things a mirror could be enchanted with, even if we were to take as read that Horstmann didn't like to keep himself looking neat.

And then there's the couple of Light spells that can use it as a component, including Light's Demand which IIRC you can expend wounds or break the component to extend the duration of.
 
BoneyM said:
The problem with henotheism in the Empire is that a lot of people would agree that that's the case and then they'd all say at the same time 'and the one in charge is my god!' and then they start killing each other and the Witch Hunters need to start burning people until things settle down again. There are Ulricans that say they're clearly in charge and Sigmar was only elevated because Ulric allowed it, there are Sigmarites that say that Ulrican passed the crown to Sigmar, there are Taalites that still think King Taal is top dog and civilized Gods only continue to exist because he allows it, there are Manannites that point out that most of the world is ocean ergo Manann is best, there are even Ranaldites that think that all the other Gods are Ranald playing a prank on literally everyone. The Empire's situation is one where certain theological questions need to go unasked to keep the peace.

There's a theological trend where polytheistic religions tend to have a King of the Gods emerge, and often new ones replace the old as a reflection of worldly cultural trends or internal struggles. The Empire can be seen as the tension before that happens, or partway through the process of Sigmar eclipsing Ulric, or even Sigmar replacing Ulric who replaced Taal.
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I really quite like how GW did religion in Warhammer Fantasy. They've done a lot of things right but I think that specific area is the best lore they've done.
 
BoneyM said:
The problem with henotheism in the Empire is that a lot of people would agree that that's the case and then they'd all say at the same time 'and the one in charge is my god!' and then they start killing each other and the Witch Hunters need to start burning people until things settle down again. There are Ulricans that say they're clearly in charge and Sigmar was only elevated because Ulric allowed it, there are Sigmarites that say that Ulrican passed the crown to Sigmar, there are Taalites that still think King Taal is top dog and civilized Gods only continue to exist because he allows it, there are Manannites that point out that most of the world is ocean ergo Manann is best, there are even Ranaldites that think that all the other Gods are Ranald playing a prank on literally everyone. The Empire's situation is one where certain theological questions need to go unasked to keep the peace.

There's a theological trend where polytheistic religions tend to have a King of the Gods emerge, and often new ones replace the old as a reflection of worldly cultural trends or internal struggles. The Empire can be seen as the tension before that happens, or partway through the process of Sigmar eclipsing Ulric, or even Sigmar replacing Ulric who replaced Taal.
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I very specifically didn't specify that the Empire's populace was henotheistic/monolatric for the same god. :V
 
Redshirt Army said:
He was "lugging around" a small hand mirror he could easily twist and twirl in his hand, which isn't exactly the most onerous thing to pack.
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Its not, but its also weirdly specific and questionable to take with you.

But i do take the point that someone else has made that it could be used for entirely different spells.
 
Lupercal said:
I'm not sure that the pre-imperial tribes where monotheistic. Its closer to tribal patrons and henotheism then true monotheism.
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It doesn't seem like there was one shared pantheon in the time before Sigmar, as Taal was the God of the Taleutens and Ulric of the Teutogens, and the other tribes only seemed to start picking them up after they settled in the Reik Basin. That leaves Rhya and Manann as unknowns, and I'd speculate Rhya was either the Goddess of the Cherusens or an adoption of the Old Faith of the Belthani, and that Manann was the God of the Jutones. Whether the other patron gods have been forgotten, were Chaos Gods that were abandoned, or have faded into being minor regional Gods is an open question.

But it's entirely possible that the tribes shared a pantheon before they came into the Reik basin, and the Taleutens and Teutogens claim favour on the basis of tribal patrons. There's not much canon material of that era and a lot of it is vague and self-contradictory.

(there's also another possibility acknowledged in the material that Ulric, Taal, and Rhya all descend from a single deity with three seasonal facets)

pucflek said:
Its not, but its also weirdly specific and questionable to take with you.
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It's the sort of thing that most wouldn't really think twice of a Light Wizard having - it might be a spell component or a meditation focus. Or maybe he's just vain, Mathilde did note he was well-groomed.
 
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BoneyM said:
The problem with henotheism in the Empire is that a lot of people would agree that that's the case and then they'd all say at the same time 'and the one in charge is my god!' and then they start killing each other and the Witch Hunters need to start burning people until things settle down again. There are Ulricans that say they're clearly in charge and Sigmar was only elevated because Ulric allowed it, there are Sigmarites that say that Ulrican passed the crown to Sigmar, there are Taalites that still think King Taal is top dog and civilized Gods only continue to exist because he allows it, there are Manannites that point out that most of the world is ocean ergo Manann is best, there are even Ranaldites that think that all the other Gods are Ranald playing a prank on literally everyone. The Empire's situation is one where certain theological questions need to go unasked to keep the peace.

There's a theological trend where polytheistic religions tend to have a King of the Gods emerge, and often new ones replace the old as a reflection of worldly cultural trends or internal struggles. The Empire can be seen as the tension before that happens, or partway through the process of Sigmar eclipsing Ulric, or even Sigmar replacing Ulric who replaced Taal.
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That was kind of the case historically throughout much of the ancient world. I mean look at the late roman republic. To the question of who is boss god you could get a hundred answers and still not scratch the surface. Of course I imagine that the existence of verifiable divine miracles would create ways and patterns of belief that do not map cleanly to our history as well, like the Sigmarites believing that Ulric used to be head god. That would be like a cult of Cronos existing in ancient Greece. Then there is the lack of creation myths that are so defining to many RL mythologies. Even the most devout Imperial citizens have an oddly secular relationship with their own history by our standards.
 
Codex said:
This is probably a more fundamental misunderstanding of what I believed Hysh to be, or rather, a simplification.

My thought process was that Hysh is fundamentally centered around concepts of Unity/Harmony/Order, which is why it's so Anti-Chaos. They even utilise this in their Choirs by synchronising with each other to improve their overall power. The idea of following the Light path into the concept of mirroring/reflection was not my first thought about Hysh, which is perhaps an issue with me focusing too much on the Choirs.

But if we follow this to the logical extreme, then shouldn't there be more Hysh spells/effects focusing on reflection? Like the ability to reflect magic missiles or projectiles or redirecting enemy attacks. Certainly such things should theoretically be easier to achieve than the very metaphysical concept of swapping combat abilities.
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The Colleges having their own focuses that don't cover the entire breadth of the Winds they use is a known phenomenon. See: the Celestial College's lack of elemental Azyr users.
 
BoneyM said:
It's the sort of thing that most wouldn't really think twice of a Light Wizard having - it might be a spell component or a meditation focus. Or maybe he's just vain, Mathilde did note he was well-groomed.
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Something that is quite irritating is that every time I try to search for Horstmann online to see images of him, all I get is him sitting on top of a giant dragon completely covered up. I have yet to see an image of Horstmann that is direct and without helmets/mask. Even then I assume he's a super old man so he wouldn't look like he does in quest.

Could you please give a basic description of what he looks like? A rough age range?
 
BoneyM said:
It doesn't seem like there was one shared pantheon in the time before Sigmar, as Taal was the God of the Taleutens and Ulric of the Teutogens, and the other tribes only seemed to start picking them up after they settled in the Reik Basin. That leaves Rhya and Manann as unknowns, and I'd speculate Rhya was either the Goddess of the Cherusens or an adoption of the Old Faith of the Belthani, and that Manann was the God of the Jutones. Whether the other patron gods have been forgotten, were Chaos Gods that were abandoned, or have faded into being minor regional Gods is an open question.

But it's entirely possible that the tribes shared a pantheon before they came into the Reik basin, and the Taleutens and Teutogens claim favour on the basis of tribal patrons. There's not much canon material of that era and a lot of it is vague and self-contradictory.

(there's also another possibility acknowledged in the material that Ulric, Taal, and Rhya all descend from a single deity with three seasonal facets)



It's the sort of thing that most wouldn't really think twice of a Light Wizard having - it might be a spell component or a meditation focus. Or maybe he's just vain, Mathilde did note he was well-groomed.
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IIRC Sigmar always worshipped Ulric, from his youth and was considered blessed by his tribe as a child.

Given that gods are material actors it feels reasonable that there could be a loose shared pantheon, but the gods would also be acknowledged as favouring one group over the others.

So Ulric is a god of war, he may not be your god of war, but he's certainly the Teutogens so throw a nod his way for fear of offending him and getting eaten by a wolf.

Others I can see being a bit more universal like Taal and Rhya, which would help explain their positions as head gods.
 
DragonParadox said:
Then there is the lack of creation myths that are so defining to many RL mythologies. Even the most devout Imperial citizens have an oddly secular relationship with their own history by our standards.
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The Ulricans say they used to live in the area now known as the Wolf Lands in the Dark Lands, which they describe as once being a sort of Garden of Eden. It definitely isn't that any more. But aside from that, it's hard to get creative with creation myths when there's Elves and Dwarves about the place who have kept very detailed records, including when your ancestors arrived, who they displaced, and the time they got scared by curious Dwarves and ran away, leaving behind paraphernalia the Dwarves noted as being especially poorly made.

Codex said:
Something that is quite irritating is that every time I try to search for Horstmann online to see images of him, all I get is him sitting on top of a giant dragon completely covered up. I have yet to see an image of Horstmann that is direct and without helmets/mask. Even then I assume he's a super old man so he wouldn't look like he does in quest.

Could you please give a basic description of what he looks like? A rough age range?
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Despite having an entire novel about him, his only canonical description is that he has a long nose. His quest description has him around his mid thirties, handsome, well groomed. That's as much as he's got, I don't really develop a mental image of characters I write.
 
BoneyM said:
The Ulricans say they used to live in the area now known as the Wolf Lands in the Dark Lands, which they describe as once being a sort of Garden of Eden. It definitely isn't that any more. But aside from that, it's hard to get creative with creation myths when there's Elves and Dwarves about the place who have kept very detailed records, including when your ancestors arrived, who they displaced, and the time they got scared by curious Dwarves and ran away, leaving behind paraphernalia the Dwarves noted as being especially poorly made.
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Given that Ulric picked up wolves from Lupus after the tribes migrated methinks the Wolf Lands either were not called that originally or simply did not exist in the first place.

That said I was not saying that it is unreasonable for the Imperials not to have much of a mythic time, just pointing out how those sorts of differences make parallels to actual history or religion of less use than they otherwise might have.
 
BoneyM said:
Despite having an entire novel about him, his only canonical description is that he has a long nose. His quest description has him around his mid thirties, handsome, well groomed. That's as much as he's got, I don't really develop a mental image of characters I write.
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Any arcane marks?

Seems like something Mathilde would pay attention to.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Any arcane marks?

Seems like something Mathilde would pay attention to.
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Only about 4 of Hysh's standard 10 Arcane Marks are instantly noticable. Eureka, Vulnerability to Darkness and Mark of Hysh may in certain scenarios be noticable, and Choral Voice if he ever sang in front of Mathilde, but otherwise I don't think she would notice.

To those curious, Paranoia and Arrogance are also Arcane Marks.
 
DragonParadox said:
Given that Ulric picked up wolves from Lupus after the tribes migrated methinks the Wolf Lands either were not called that originally or simply did not exist in the first place.
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considering the all those giant wolves in the dark lands the hobgoblins ride in the dark lands ,I think the whole wolf lands thing might be legit from before the human tribes of the time were driven out by the greenskins
 
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