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So... Abelheim used this knowledge by reading 1 of the 9 (I think) books of Nagash and surviving the experience saneish.

Does that mean there are 18 secrets of dhar? 2 per book?
The Liber Mortis is not one of the 9 Books of Nagash.

(Well... usually. Some sources say it is, but in-quest, it definitely isn't)


In-quest, Van Hel wrote it from Vlad's distilled instructions in how to use Necromancy. I'm not sure Vlad ever had any of the Books either.
 
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I thought it was the detrapped, sanitised, sanetised and distilled version of one?
It's wiki entry says it's a distilled version of translated versions of all 9.


In-quest, it's a journal Van Hel wrote that chronicled his experiences during the Black Death and the Skaven Invasion, talks about his instruction by Vlad, and has an appendix of Necromancy Spells in the back that's the only thing 99% of Necromancers focus on.
 
11. All Magisters may expect to receive accommodation, benefits, respect, and fair treatment, as would befit any noble of Sigmar's Holy Empire, while in the employ of the Electors of Sigmar's Holy Empire.
We... aren't. At least not when it comes to our pay and home as Loremaster.
Once he comes up with a good excuse for it it's going to be found in some hidden alcove.
The Warlord of the Fourth-And-Final Combe was into coin collecting?
Pretty sure our dragon chair counts as property without direct and practical use of pretty ridiculous worth.
Isn't it bone that has somehow been rendered magically inert and useless?

Also, it is required to intimidate during certain negotiations. :p
I want to give the Liber Mortis to Roswita. She's grown enough and has dealt with wizards enough that I think she's ready to have it, and her family have kept it safe for century upon century.

Not sure whether or not we should let Roswita know Mathilde is the one who had it, but I do feel like Roswita deserves to bear the family legacy.
That's crazy. Hell, Abelheim having it was just as crazy. If any battle by the Drakenhofs had been a rout and Mathilde had died alongside Abelheim (or even just participated in a hasty retreat) then it would have fallen into enemy hands. If the Liber Mortis should ever be used in an emergency then it should be given to Algard or Dragomas upon our untimely death. Otherwise the box should be given to Belegar, Gunnars and Kragg with the promise that they open it together and destroy the contents as safely and completely as possible.
None except the Runefangs I think?
One of the other 7 recipients might since have spent DF to have theirs upgraded with Runework. Ruprecht and Titus at least should each have enough DF to get it done. Soizic and Francesco also might have pooled some of theirs for it.
I do generally agree it would be better for her not to know Mathilde has read it. I'm just not sure how to give it to her and have her know how to open it without actually talking to her about it.
If we really want to give it to her (I don't) then the most elegant way to do it would be upon the complete conquest of Sylvania with the lie that Abelheim just gave us the box and the instructions on how to open it for "safekeeping until his heir has proven herself" or whatever.
There are a bunch of runed swords, almost all of them belonging to the Empire.
Which ones do you mean?
Hell, cut the middleman and just leave it to Kragg in our will. If he ever trusts another wizard enough to hand it to them to use, you know they will have earned it.
Why not just burn it at that point? Safely within a specifically made and runically reinforced forge of course.
talks about his instruction by Vlad
It also actually contains these instructions. And I'm still not sure if the First and Second secrets of Dhar are just the contents of the flavor text of the traits on our character sheet (which would mean that one slip or observation of its use would be enough to give a talented and observative Necromancer everything they need to learn and replicate them) or if they have exact instructions in magibabble that can't be reproduced except with lots and lots of extremely risky experimentation.
 
Isn't it bone that has somehow been rendered magically inert and useless?
I'm pretty sure that's just the headcanon explanation I proposed a while back, it hasn't actually been confirmed or denied by Boney.
This isn't really that relevant to the current discussion but it's never going to be relevant given how much time has passed so now's as good a time as any. So may I present, my headcanon explanation for why Mathilde's dragon-skull chair cannot be used to get mechanical benefits.

A long time ago Alkharad tried to create a dragon skeleton to reanimate but failed due to it being made from multiple different dragons. Later he had a project that would benefit from dragonbone but he found that he liked having a skeletal dragon on display and didn't want to sacrifice it. So he did what any obscenely powerful magic user would do, punch reality's face in until it gave in and let you have your cake and eat it too. He used a ritual to transfer the arcane properties of dragon bone to some other material so he could keep his dragon trophy. When Mathilde got the dragon-skull it no longer had any magical properties you wouldn't find in normal bone and so was useless for enchanting. Still perfect for a neat chair though.

And that's my headcanon. Someone may have already posted their own explanation at some point but this is mine and I wanted to share it.
 
Well, I see no reason to not make this canon other than the hope that our next character might successfully raid and loot Mathilde's penthouse.:V
Unless we end up as an evil faction, I would hope we're smart enough not to piss of the entire Karaz Ankor. I don't even want to know what sort of Grudge they might level for desecrating Mathilde's home, even if she is already dead. :V
 
Unless we end up as an evil faction
I'd love playing an evil faction member for a change. Problem is, Warhammer edgyness + SV's rules + BoneyM's attention to detail + general player sensibilities together mean that any such quest would have to be deliberately sanitized to the point where it could easily become very grating.
 
I'd love playing an evil faction member for a change. Problem is, Warhammer edgyness + SV's rules + BoneyM's attention to detail + general player sensibilities together mean that any such quest would have to be deliberately sanitized to the point where it could easily become very grating.
There is one or two WHF Vampire quests in SV that I saw before but it never captured my imagination so I don't know how it actually works.
 
Do the Colleges get any state funding by the way?

Some.

That said, Knights and Dwarves should be allowed to profit as much as they want, no? I didn't mean them doing it on our behalf or cutting us in in any way.
Mathilde might not be going around looking to make a profit on selling furs but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the knights decided to do so. It's quite possible they make a tidy profit from exotic skins from this trip.

Trading in luxury goods is an entire skillset. Distinguishing between high-quality and low-quality merchandise, knowing the proper price point to haggle for and how to do so without offending the sellers, knowing how to transport them so they don't become damaged, knowing who to sell to and for what price, these are all things that nobody on the Expedition has any idea about.

Define 'break' and 'poverty'? We could at the very least get them to argue their case in dwarf court. Would be a sight to behold not doubt about it. :V

If it does come to that, the Dwarves are not likely to be as understanding about all the little acceptable loopholes that a blind eye has been turned towards, and they'd be aghast that Mathilde has been breaking her word from pretty much day one of becoming a Journeywoman.

Well, possibly. The 8th edition Empire timeline said that Arkhan the Black stole it in 2453 while he attacked Altdorf with an undead army.

Actually, @BoneyM, I was curious- does Mathilde know if that attack happened in quest-canon?

Depending which version you read, it was to steal either the Cursed Book of Har-ak-Iman, one of the Nine Books of Nagash, or the Liber Mortis. Of those possibilities, that someone one degree removed from Nagash went to all that trouble to steal the diary of someone three degrees removed doesn't really strike me as the most likely. This is further complicated in that somewhere along the line pretty much all books of necromancy have been described as one of the Nine Books, even the ones with no direct connection to Nagash whatsoever. So Mathilde knows that there was an undead attack on Altdorf, but doesn't know the purpose behind it.
 
Depending which version you read, it was to steal either the Cursed Book of Har-ak-Iman, one of the Nine Books of Nagash, or the Liber Mortis.
"Depending on which version you read"- is that different printings of the 8th edition Empire book, or is the event mentioned elsewhere? The only other place I had ever seen it was the timeline in the 4th edition RPG core book.
 
If it does come to that, the Dwarves are not likely to be as understanding about all the little acceptable loopholes that a blind eye has been turned towards, and they'd be aghast that Mathilde has been breaking her word from pretty much day one of becoming a Journeywoman.
ONLY A DWARF WITH A TRULY SHAMEFUL SKRUFF WOULD IGNORE THE SPIRIT OF A LAW OR OATH! SHAME THAT SUCH THINGS ARE MORE COMMON IN THESE DAYS OF DWINDLING. WHY, AS A LAD OF NO MORE THAN 40 WINTERS I REMEMBER MY COUSIN OKRI SWORE TO BREAK NO BREAD WITH BLONDES AND IN MY LIFE I'VE NOT SEEN HIM SAT WITH ANY DAWI WHO IS BLONDE, WAS ONCE BLONDE, HAS BLONDE ANCESTORS, OR HAS ANYTHING RELATED TO BLONDNESS IN THEIR CLAN'S HISTORY.

And the beardlings can't even manage to follow a vow so simply put as the one here these days! HARUMPH.
 
If it does come to that, the Dwarves are not likely to be as understanding about all the little acceptable loopholes that a blind eye has been turned towards, and they'd be aghast that Mathilde has been breaking her word from pretty much day one of becoming a Journeywoman.

Don't the Dwarves of at least one Karak have Barazuls, people specifically trained at searching the loopholes in order to help people avoid turning Slayer? The concept of loopholing to be functional and psychologically sound when oaths are practically untenable seems to be codified in at least one Dawi polity, in your quest at least. Or would those loopholes not count to Dawi for some reason?
 
As-is, I don't see much reason to give the Liber Mortis to Roswita beyond pure sentimental value.

She already has the practical benefits. Mathilde gave her some tutoring on fighting necromancers and the undead during their road trip, Vampires in Sylvania have a habit of suffering terrible accidents when Mathilde is around, and Mathilde has personally studied two Vampiric spells (fog form and remote-control) and suggested countermeasures which both wizards and non-wizards can make use of. The only thing Roswita barely knows about is the Skaven. But Stirland has barely any Skaven underneath it, for some reason.

(It would be kind of funny if that was once again all Manhavok's fault. God of Floods always hitting nails with the only hammer he has, fighting the good fight by flooding tunnels and basements, and everyone hating him for it.)

In order to get any more benefit out of the Liber Mortis than she indirectly has already, Roswita would actually need to hire someone with the capability to use magic. Someone incredibly trustworthy and loyal to her family, and proven to be nigh incorruptible by power or wealth. Hmm... can't think of anyone. Oh well.

I'm not entirely opposed to passing it on to her out of sentimental value at some point. But I can think of a better way to 'redeem' the thing that puts Mathilde's unique position to use.

Article:
Talismanic Runes
  • Master Rune of Balance - Forged in the embers of a captured book of spells, this rune hungers after the Winds of Magic.


Assuming this thing scales off the strength of the book used (and in this case it's the freaking Liber Mortis), we could go all-in with whatever Kragg Favour we've got and tell him we want this destroyed/transformed into the most powerful Runic anti-magic talisman he can possibly forge, as a gift and family heirloom that the Van Hal family can finally be truly proud of. Something to make every necromancer in Stirland regret the day they ever grabbed a fistful of Dhar.

I could imagine Roswita appreciating that, and it would make a heck of a way to turn the dark legacy of the book on its head. Even if the only explanation we ever could give for its existence is, "Your father wanted you to have this."
 
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ONLY A DWARF WITH A TRULY SHAMEFUL SKRUFF WOULD IGNORE THE SPIRIT OF A LAW OR OATH! SHAME THAT SUCH THINGS ARE MORE COMMON IN THESE DAYS OF DWINDLING. WHY, AS A LAD OF NO MORE THAN 40 WINTERS I REMEMBER MY COUSIN OKRI SWORE TO BREAK NO BREAD WITH BLONDES AND IN MY LIFE I'VE NOT SEEN HIM SAT WITH ANY DAWI WHO IS BLONDE, WAS ONCE BLONDE, HAS BLONDE ANCESTORS, OR HAS ANYTHING RELATED TO BLONDNESS IN THEIR CLAN'S HISTORY.

And the beardlings can't even manage to follow a vow so simply put as the one here these days! HARUMPH.
AND MANLINGS MAKE EVERYTHING SHODDY, EVEN OATHS. ONE PART OF THE SPIRIT OF THE VOW OF POVERTY IS THAT YOU AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BECOME RICH, THE OTHER PART IS THAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO USE LOOPHOLES TO GET AROUND THE FIRST PART SO YOU CAN DO YOUR JOB AS PART OF THE GREY ORDER, WITHIN LIMITS. NO MATTER WHAT YOU'RE DOING YOU'RE BREAKING AT LEAST PART OF THE VOW'S SPIRIT. BAH!
 
Don't the Dwarves of at least one Karak have Barazuls, people specifically trained at searching the loopholes in order to help people avoid turning Slayer? The concept of loopholing to be functional and psychologically sound when oaths are practically untenable seems to be codified in at least one Dawi polity, in your quest at least. Or would those loopholes not count to Dawi for some reason?
theres "i feel shame for something that was not necessarily my fault" and then theres "I swore to poverty and yet im probably among the 10 richest people in any mid-size imperial town."
kinda two different paradigms
 
Don't the Dwarves of at least one Karak have Barazuls, people specifically trained at searching the loopholes in order to help people avoid turning Slayer? The concept of loopholing to be functional and psychologically sound when oaths are practically untenable seems to be codified in at least one Dawi polity, in your quest at least. Or would those loopholes not count to Dawi for some reason?
No, Barazuls don't go for loopholes, they simply try to determine if an oath was violated, which stops some dwarves from going slayer. Remember we suggested that we bring in a Barazul to solve Belegar's problem? Boney mentioned that the Barazul could quite easily say "Yup, time to go slayer."
 
Don't the Dwarves of at least one Karak have Barazuls, people specifically trained at searching the loopholes in order to help people avoid turning Slayer? The concept of loopholing to be functional and psychologically sound when oaths are practically untenable seems to be codified in at least one Dawi polity, in your quest at least. Or would those loopholes not count to Dawi for some reason?
I think at least some of the "loopholes" we've been using don't actually exist within the rules - they're convenient fictions like "Dame Weber's money isn't Journeywoman Weber's money"
 
Well, he's the sort of rat to make the Hell Pit Abomination, for starters.


Clan Moulder starts at "Frankenstein" and then snorts Warpstone and goes a whole lot further.

Somebody has to make this joke:

Begone, Throt!

Trading in luxury goods is an entire skillset. Distinguishing between high-quality and low-quality merchandise, knowing the proper price point to haggle for and how to do so without offending the sellers, knowing how to transport them so they don't become damaged, knowing who to sell to and for what price, these are all things that nobody on the Expedition has any idea about.
Also an entire anime. Spice and Wolf is surprisingly entertaining for an anime about quasimedieval economics. But yeah, there's a huge amount you need to know.
 
Did she overcome her magic phobia ? If not I doubt that she would appreciate it.
Enough to tolerate battle wizards running around her castle, at least. Plus her and Mathilde are pretty much friends at this point.

Rune magic in the Empire is also by nature in a very different category from regular magic. Ghal Maraz and the Runefangs are awe-inspiring and scary, but not in in the sense that 'this thing may explode and/or steal your soul at any moment.'
 
Vladimir didn't just offer a book to Frederick, but remained at his side and walked him past every one of a thousand traps and triggers that it contained and helped him parse the few diamonds of wisdom hidden in a sea of knives.
In quest, the Liber Mortis includes the distillation of at least one of the Books of Nagash.
 
Also an entire anime. Spice and Wolf is surprisingly entertaining for an anime about quasimedieval economics. But yeah, there's a huge amount you need to know.
As an econ geek, this is easily on of my favorite animes.

Also, I don't know that we'd have room for much luxury goods. We are taking as much food as possible, and most luxury goods from the North, like furs, take up more room than the currency we'd use to spend on them, and worse, wouldn't be able to be used as easily to haggle our way out of problems.
 
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