Overall it does seem a bit hard to reconcile the whole thing, another aspect though is we do know in Divided Loyalties canon there was some disagreement in views even with the Norse dwarves that caused them to split off even before contact was lost, so a mix between not expecting there to be anyone to see, and not wanting to interact with them even if they were there (an attitude that perhaps softened on both sides over the millennia leading to the positive reaction when contact did end up being made, but before then the status quo of not bothering was firmly set) can maybe explain the lack of exploration attempts from each side.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Overall it does seem a bit hard to reconcile the whole thing, another aspect though is we do know in Divided Loyalties canon there was some disagreement in views even with the Norse dwarves that caused them to split off even before contact was lost, so a mix between not expecting there to be anyone to see, and not wanting to interact with them even if they were there (an attitude that perhaps softened on both sides over the millennia leading to the positive reaction when contact did end up being made, but before then the status quo of not bothering was firmly set) can maybe explain the lack of exploration attempts from each side.
Yes. Don't play silly buggers with the Bursar, her entire life has been spent obliterating people with much more wealth, experience and influence than Mathilde.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Huh. Didn't expect that. But it makes sense that the Grey College as a whole is also supposed to be a humble non-profit organization. That said, Knights and Dwarves should be allowed to profit as much as they want, no? I didn't mean them doing it on our behalf or cutting us in in any way.
Do the Colleges get any state funding by the way?
There's something even odder about the Norse dwarfs when you think about it. According to Tome of Corruption Norscan has a lot of Khazalid words which they got from the Dwarfs before they all decided to worship malignant reality tumors. Now consider the fact that Norscans are sailors. Why did no dwarf in the south for all those ages of the world wonder where the manlings sailing south in longships had learned their Khazalid? Me thinks GM has left another plot hole you could pass a Great Unclean One though.
- Location
- Spain
Aren't we already doing that through the EIC, though? Buying cheap and selling high is the basis of trade...
And we are even looking to give a try to the silk market once we figure out how to weave spider silk...
Degrees of separation. We are not doing it, the company is.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Not gonna lie, part of me kinda wants Mathilde to develop an Arcane tool that befuddles fish so that they try to jump into your fishing boat on their own, just to see her expression.
Yes, we wouldn't be able to use it ourselves or selling it without skirting too close to the line (wearing the kind of grin that means you don't get away with it), but if we gave it away for free we should be home clear.
We might be able to get an eyeroll out of her! Several even!
See I was thinking us being a "trading"expedition through the Norscan territory would help us get through there. Since we will be just spending enough silver to make raiding a less desirable action when we just show up and spend enough silver to make the Norscan want to be civil. While there is some profit motivation since doing stuff cost money it is secondary to the good will being traders can get you.
- Location
- Spain
Since it is a company owned by Mathilde, I would say that this specific degree of separation is extremely nebulous at best, and almost non-existent at worst.
- Location
- Earth
Wilhelmina is doing the reselling.
Mathilde is inserting the spy network.
SakSak
Unbound
- Location
- The Cold Wastes of the North
But it is a degree of separation, and like the Bursar said a long time ago, we would not have been made Magister if we were not trusted.
The Grey College of all institutions ought to know that a profit-making trade company can be a useful spy network, and as long it stays a legitimate trade company that benefits the Empire (instead of feeding on it), we're trusted that we know what we're doing.
Yes, it could become a personal enrichment scheme, very easily in fact, but Ulgu magic is very good at that regardless.
The wow of poverty isn't there to make our jobs of helping the Empire (which sometimes requires hard cash) impossible. It is there to make sure we don't start Mindholing people in get-rich schemes, or take over trade routes only to jack up the prices and then sit on a mountain of gold. There are loopholes, but the Bursar can easily make those loopholes into a noose if they're pushed too far or they start harming the Empire more than they benefit it.
EDIT: Basically, the people at the Grey College are not rules-lawerying take-everything-literally idiots. Everyone there, including the Bursar, uses the same magical Wind of ambiguity and double-think that we do.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Yep. We're making full use of a bunch of loopholes in the Vow of Poverty, but that doesn't mean we found One Weird Trick Bursars Hate Her, it means that the Bursar has us on a leash and at literally any time can choose to stop turning a blind eye and have us ruined.
So... don't push it.
So... don't push it.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Must admit i'm looking forward to having a poke around potential norse dwarf settlements, not expecting to loot anything just want to learn what happened and if we're really lucky find some dorfs that might be inclined to make their way south.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Firstly: If we're not present to mess with people's minds the whole "grey mages can make money highly unethically" thing that is the root of the Vow of Poverty becomes far less relevant.
Secondly: We don't own the EIC. We own less than 50% of it. We own enough that we can do a lot to determine how it behaves and keep it on the straight-and-narrow, but not enough that we could actually say "stop trying to make a profit"
Thirdly: The EIC isn't trading with servants of chaos.
Well I would not say we are ruined. We would be in deep shit, but neither the Grey College nor the Bursar would enjoy it because:
Thane of Karak Eight Peaks, Loremaster of Karak Eight Peaks, Court Wizard of Karak Eight Peaks, Dawongr, Azrildrekked, Dawizhufokri
And on top of that:
Dawi (apparently)
Mathilde is not just a Lady Magister, she is someone who can leverage almost unfathomable amounts of Dwarf rep. I suspect that (and our distance from the Empire) is a good portion of the reason why the Bursar is being so hands off.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
If they have reason to censure us, they'll have to kill us subtly enough not to tip off the Dawi.
Unfortunately we're talking about the Grey College, so that won't be particularly hard for them.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
While this is to a point true, noone wants Magister Vigilants or Regimand's Hands deciding Mathilde is persona non grata. Because then it doesn't matter who or where you are(within a degree of reasonability in which Mathilde falls), they have dealt with worse with noone the wiser.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I'm fine with poking at the lost Norse Holds, but I think people need to temper their expectations a lot - the southernmost Norse Holds (aka the ones we'll be in a position to look at) are exactly the ones the Karaz Ankor would have checked on, thoroughly, before declaring the Norse Dwarves lost.
It's not like the Karaz Ankor would have just shrugged and said "oh well" when they stopped getting the Norse Dwarves letters, this was literally Thorgrim's crowning achievement.
It's not like the Karaz Ankor would have just shrugged and said "oh well" when they stopped getting the Norse Dwarves letters, this was literally Thorgrim's crowning achievement.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
That and for all her wealth she doean't really spend it giving herself an excessive lifestyle or something. Her tower is nice but it is also a Dwarves holy super weapon, so having very expensive protection is a given. Etc.
Well we aren't exactly a turnip farmer, it would be Grey Wizard on Grey Wizard (with a Belt and Seed designed to protect against asassination) after going through all the defenses of a dwarf Karak... and if they fail the fallout would be hard to quantify.
Mathilde might not be going around looking to make a profit on selling furs but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the knights decided to do so. It's quite possible they make a tidy profit from exotic skins from this trip.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Points at the Grey wizard that blew up one of the Hellcannon foundries.
Points at all the times Mathilde went on a jaunt protected by few hammerers.
Are you sure? The key to assassinating well protected person is not doing it in the place of their power. Mathilde leaves hers fairly often. Hell, Alkharad could have gotten us by accident in the Roswita ambush if we rolled really badly.
Its not like they have to tell you its open season on you. For all you know you are going on a Waaagh lecture and your gyrocopter gets shot out of the sky.
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- Location
- Earth
The biggest reason the Bursar is so hands of is that we never had a visible mess.
Our reputation is quite literally spotless, because we managed to keep all our mistakes from compounding or getting known.
No one found out that Mathilde embezzled money.
Abelhelms death is mitigated by us doing our best to prevent it that even the Dawi found no fault and the destruction of Castle Drakenhof.
No one knows of our involvement with the death of the Empress via Conspiracy.
No one knows about the funny run away sequence from Orcs during K8P conquering when we assassinated that War Boss.
No one knows we read the Liber Mortis.
No one knows how close the Alkharad fight actually was.
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- Location
- Oklahoma
I mean. Technically?
In the same way she has most of the Grey College on a leash, including Regimand. Mathilde's monetary shenanigans are a bit unusual due to scale, but the 'loopholes' she's taking advantage of are commonplace and there on purpose.
The purpose of the Vow is that Greys can amass wealth and influence far too easily if their abuse their magic, so long as you aren't doing that you're pretty much in the clear.
Its what the whole 'fish just keep jumping in' thing is about.
She's not being any more hands off or lenient than she usually is with a trusted member of the College.
She could theoretically decide that these loopholes are no longer valid, but that'd mean killing an awful lot of their most trusted people.
Or she could decide that she just doesn't like Mathilde's face in particular, which would probably get her some pretty strong side-eyes given Mathilde's position as a LM.
One of our peers yeah.