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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Let's not get in a pissing match about how untouchable we are, or even how difficult to touch.
Being an empress was no shield against a single magister.
We can't take the college, and they absolutely can kill us in ways that either look natural causes, or points the finger that empires enemies.
Like skaven.
 
DragonParadox said:
Well we aren't exactly a turnip farmer, it would be Grey Wizard on Grey Wizard (with a Belt and Seed designed to protect against asassination) after going through all the defenses of a dwarf Karak... and if they fail the fallout would be hard to quantify.
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Our relevant defences are:
Belt - kills the person who kills us
Windsight - We can see invisible people coming in a way most magisters can't.
Seed - Poison won't get the job done, you have to chop her hand off first, or use counterspells to stop the seed working. Or kill her repeatedly, but that requires a lot of attackers to die.
The Tower - The place we sleep is basically impenetrable to standard Grey Wizard techniques.

The Karak's defenses are ultimately irrelevant because people can just walk in.

So they'd have to catch us on one of our many dangerous expeditions and: A) chop off the hand with the seed in it, B) set a pack of monsters capable of hurting us on us, while providing counterspells against our defenses. or C) Counterspell the seed.

Not easy but not enough to dissuade the Grey College if they decided we were going Black Magister.
 
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GrimTheMad said:
She could theoretically decide that these loopholes are no longer valid, but that'd mean killing an awful lot of their most trusted people.

Or she could decide that she just doesn't like Mathilde's face in particular, which would probably get her some pretty strong side-eyes given Mathilde's position as a LM.
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Or, since they are not blithering idiots, The Bursar would likely have evidence for why Mathilde in particular has gone too far, then they'd likely call Mathilde in for a chance to explain herself, and if this doesn't rectify the situation then she is stripped of her status and a diplomatic party is sent to the Dwarves to explain how Mathilde has broken her wows and is considered an enemy of the Empire but since they don't want an Empire/Dawi war since Mathilde is the Loremaster to K8P, they are kindly asking what can be done to resolve this severe diplomatic incident peacefully.
 
Thing about protecting yourself agaist assassination is that the assassin needs to get lucky, once.
You need to be lucky all the time.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Must admit i'm looking forward to having a poke around potential norse dwarf settlements, not expecting to loot anything just want to learn what happened and if we're really lucky find some dorfs that might be inclined to make their way south.
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I am personally more excited about visiting The Last Hope Inn, the official last place of meeting for both the craziest SOBs that are crazy enough to go try their luck at going full murdehobo to the Chaos Wastes, and the luckiest SOBs that have managed to go full murderhobo at the Chaos Wastes and came back alive
Redshirt Army said:
I'm fine with poking at the lost Norse Holds, but I think people need to temper their expectations a lot - the southernmost Norse Holds (aka the ones we'll be in a position to look at) are exactly the ones the Karaz Ankor would have checked on, thoroughly, before declaring the Norse Dwarves lost.

It's not like the Karaz Ankor would have just shrugged and said "oh well" when they stopped getting the Norse Dwarves letters, this was literally Thorgrim's crowning achievement.
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Tue, it is unlikely that we find anything useful, but it is a relatively safe activity that can give us stupendous benefits if we are lucky, and if we are not lucky... Well knowing the ultimate fate of those holds is valuable on its own right...
 
I mean they aren't going to immediately escalate to assassination.

But yeah, no intentionally breaking the vows. It's very simple, as it was designed to be.
 
SakSak said:
The Bursar would likely have evidence for why Mathilde in particular has gone too far,
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That's my point, though.

She hasn't gone too far.

I was responding to the idea that the Bursar is somehow being particularly lenient by 'letting Mathilde get away with so much', when Mathilde is getting away with exactly as much bullshit as every other high ranking member of the College.

Mathilde doesn't have to step lightly around her or live in fear of the day the Bursar decides she wants her gone, because she's a LM in good standing (redundancy ho!) and is using the loopholes exactly as they're meant to be used.

So long as we don't start setting out with the express intent of making money (like the buying and reselling thing that start all of this) its not a worry. We're fine.
 
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People are also assuming that they won't start by paying people they want dead to try to kill us and observing what happens.
 
DragonParadox said:
Well I would not say we are ruined. We would be in deep shit, but neither the Grey College nor the Bursar would enjoy it because:

Thane of Karak Eight Peaks, Loremaster of Karak Eight Peaks, Court Wizard of Karak Eight Peaks, Dawongr, Azrildrekked, Dawizhufokri

And on top of that:

Dawi (apparently)

Mathilde is not just a Lady Magister, she is someone who can leverage almost unfathomable amounts of Dwarf rep. I suspect that (and our distance from the Empire) is a good portion of the reason why the Bursar is being so hands off.
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Eh, they can ruin us, ruining is not killing. If we are an oathbreaker and that is provable, the Dawi will be... very disappointed and angry at us. We'd have to go slayer or we'd get killed, and if we escape we are practically in exile from both Empire and Karaz Ankor.

kingreaper said:
If they have reason to censure us, they'll have to kill us subtly enough not to tip off the Dawi.

Unfortunately we're talking about the Grey College, so that won't be particularly hard for them.
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That said, I think actually killing us will be a lot harder. These people are peers and they are also drowning on AP hell, we can give them the slip for a long while and we are better at close combat and dispelling that most mages (although I wouldn't make either bet against another LM if I didn't absolutely have to). Moreover, if we had nothing to lose, we also have necromancy. They can ruin us, sure, but killing us is up to the dice, and I do not think the circumstances are that favourable to them (unless they decide to focus on us with multiple high profile assailants despite the AP hell, then our odds will be very bad... then again, necromancy IS op, so even that may still only even things out)

That said, I really, really do not want us to find ourselves in a scenario when we learn what those dice'll be. I do not care if I am right on wrong, I believe I speak for the vast majority of people* here when I say that we should do everything possible to not even learn the odds of surviving the grey college declaring us an oathbreaker.**

*love you too @Omegahugger , you awesome exception, you.
**If they do it one sidedly, without either a trial or truly undeniable and waterproof evidence, we can spin it on the Dawi that they are wrongly accusing us, which would most likely be believed. That would be a very different scenario. I doubt they do not know that, though, the Bursar, as Boney said, is very experienced.
 
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GrimTheMad said:
That's my point, though.

She hasn't gone too far.

I was responding to the idea that the Bursar is somehow being particularly lenient by 'letting Mathilde get away with so much', when Mathilde is getting away with exactly as much bullshit as every other high ranking member of the College.

Mathilde doesn't have to step lightly around her or live in fear of the day the Bursar decides she wants her gone, because she's a LM in good standing (redundancy ho!) and is using the loopholes exactly as they're meant to be used.

So long as we don't start setting out with the express intent of making money (like the buying and reselling thing that start all of this) its not a worry. We're fine.
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We yeah, I think that's a given, but given the speed of the conversation maybe I just missed it.

Anyway, I was more talking about the point that if we DO push the Wow of Poverty to the point where the Grey College has to do something, at that point we will have done something to push those loopholes further than allowed and thus further than what others have done. And that assassinations likely wouldn't be the first tool on the table.

Basically, I agree with you that loopholes exist to facilitate all the stuff Grey College gets into in their capacity as diplomats and sneaks and shadowed guardians of the Empire, and the Bursar exists to monitor those loopholes and how Grey wizards use them and if necessary to bring the hammer down.
 
DragonParadox said:
And then blow up from the rune of spite. We are a hell of a hard target, not to say impossible, but my bet it it's easier to assassinate the Emperor than Mathilde at this point.
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And Grey College cares about the gobbo's fate because?
Yes, we are a hard target, we are not so hard that Grey college can't deal with us if they decide we have gone too far.
If that means they have to engineer a suicide gobbo, or Eshin, to do it, so be it.
 
Valmond said:
And Grey College cares about the gobbo's fate because?
Yes, we are a hard target, we are not so hard that Grey college can't deal with us if they decide we have gone too far.
If that means they have to engineer a suicide gobbo, or Eshin, to do it, so be it.
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Wait you mean someone would actually try to get a goblin to do their bidding? Where does this mythical goblin that keeps its word live, or Skaven for that matter? I'm not saying that they could not pay assassins, but they would go with ones that might at least keep their word.
 
Well presumably if they decided Mathilde just Had To Go for whatever reason they'd just wait till she was visiting the Grey College and do it then, where they could just dogpile her.

Cause trying to take someone or in their extremely well defended penthouse inside of a Dwarven Karak would be stupid.

I doubt they killed the empress inside of the palace either. A big part of assassination is hitting where your target is most vulnerable.
 
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GrimTheMad said:
Well presumably if they decided Mathilde just Had To Go for whatever reason they'd just wait till she was visiting the Grey College and do it then, where they could just dogpile her.

Cause trying to take someone or in their extremely well defended penthouse inside of a Dwarven Karak would be stupid.
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A better idea than goblin assassins certainly. Get her into a nice open room and throw Pit of Shades on her would seem the best tool of assassination. Sure she can dispel and the belt can eat one casting, but the Grey College has some battle wizards than we have lucky breaks.
 
Resonant said:
My headcanon goes something like:
1. Dwarven Expansion of World's Edge Mountains, Old Ones still walked on Mallus (Pre-Karaz Ankor)
2. FIRST Coming of Chaos + Ancestor-Gods establish Karaz Ankor (Pre-Golden Age)
3. Ancestors-Gods disappear, Dwarves split off to Norsca/East. Karaz Ankor begins Golden Age.
4. 2nd Chaos Incursion isolated Norse Dwarves and made the Eastern Dwarves become Dawi-Zharr.

Anyone with more lore trivia can shed some light on this?
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So, the first Chaos Incursion lasted about 1200 years, going by the 8th edition Lizardmen army book. At the same time that Chaos was invading the world, the Dwarfs were expanding along the mountains and the Ancestor Gods were cementing themselves as, well, the Ancestor Gods.

My thinking is this- the demons mostly focused on the Lizardmen themselves for a while, figuring they were the greatest threat, which left the Dwarfs able to expand, including the Norse and Zorn Uzkul Dwarfs. Then, when they'd weakened the Lizardmen enough for them to not be as much of a threat, the focused more on the Elves and Dwarfs, which is the time that cut off the splinters from the Karaz Ankor.

Then, you know, -4420 IC, the High Elves finish the Vortex, demons are no longer able to invade willy-nilly (though there seems to be large numbers of them in the world still until the Waystone Network is finished) the Ancestor Gods disappear, etc.
 
Anyways, it's probably best to stop thinking in terms of 'Mathilde vs Grey College' (and I include myself in that).

Mathilde is the Grey College, unless things go horrifically off the rails wrong it's never going to happen.

They are her allies, backup, and support- not enemies.

Might as well start theorizing on what would happen if Belebro decided he wanted her dead.
 
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GrimTheMad said:
Anyways, it's probably best to stop thinking in terms of 'Mathilde vs Grey College' (and I include myself in that).

Mathilde is the Grey College, unless things go horrifically off the rails wrong it's never going to happen.

They are her allies, backup, and support- not enemies.

Might as well start theorizing on what would happen if Belebro decided he wanted her dead.
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Eh Grey Wizards being what they are I'm pretty sure all of them consider the possibility at least a few times in their lives as a mental exercise, at least as often as 'how would I assassinate the Emperor?'.

Still we are currently in the Chaos Wastes, so Grey College assassins are probably not the primary threat. :V
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Yep. We're making full use of a bunch of loopholes in the Vow of Poverty, but that doesn't mean we found One Weird Trick Bursars Hate Her, it means that the Bursar has us on a leash and at literally any time can choose to stop turning a blind eye and have us ruined.

So... don't push it.
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If Mathilde personally makes zero profit, even in the form of Shallyan favor or whatever, I really don't see the issue. How would two Knight Orders, a bunch of Dwarves and a handful of non-Grey, non-Amethyst Wizards engaging in profitable trade be a bad thing? Also, if the Bursar had a problem with this that would make it illegal to ask Grey Wizards to trade caravans. Which is rather contradictory with the option we had to join or form a mercenary band after the K8P expedition.
kingreaper said:
you have to chop her hand off first, or use counterspells to stop the seed working. Or kill her repeatedly, but that requires a lot of attackers to die.
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You can also kill her first and then chop her hand off as she heals, before executing the half-healed body.
 
Ok so I have a idea. I started thinking about Freak economics and Warhammer. Now I do not know if the lessons learned from Freak economics would cross over to warhammer but Boney has portrayed our enemies as people. Alien, peculiar and different culture but still as people. Ok so some highlights is that the average drug dealer in real life makes about as much money as working fast food makes. Now the difference is that being a drug dealer has a greater chance of social and economic advancement than working fast food. What we learn from this is that people will do the job they think will give them the greater chance of having a better life.
Because working fast food is a dead end. It is so obvious the slang word for it is now in the dictionary.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McJob

Now what does this have to do with Norscan and trade. Well it seems for every Norscan that actually wants to destroy the world there are a lot of Norscans that raid because they have to. Now if trade gets established and jobs and financial advancement becomes available that does not involve raiding I believe Norscans would take it. Because they are people capable of figuring out risk and reward.

we already have examples of enemies of order making decisions based off greed and weighing risk and reward with the Dolgon. We also have Roswita work in using economics to attack vampires economically which is working well as a example that economics can help the forces of order. Mathilde sits on the board of a company that frankly is going to easily be able to dominate land trade between the old world and the east.

What I am proposing is that we attack the forces Of destruction through economics. Trade with the Norscans can be used to empower the Norscan who trade more and give us a early warning to the crazy one who do want to destroy the world. Arabia may never end slavery since they need bodies to fight the undead and beast men but access to a large amount of gunpowder weapons would greatly lessen their need for slaves. There are a vampire factions that seems to go out of its way to spend money that we curtail. The Ungol seem to be similar to the Norscan is that there seems to be a number of them raid because they need to.

So how do we do this. We expand the trading company with a workforce that will have our goals. There are perpetual apprentices who will never be mages but would be great as a workforce and become spies. They are educated meaning they can read and write. Being greys their indoctrination to loyalty to the empire. Also I am sure the Collage would keep a eye on them. Frankly with Mathilde reputation and backing of 1 elector count, the empress, and the dawi she could easily create a trade company that will dominate trade with the east. It is something that can be done with a few actions form Mathilde. Really the only problem i see is getting the grey order behind her but again with her reputation I think it should be possible.
 
@Nurgle oddly enough I think someone has already stolen a march on out there, Marienburg. Those are the sorts of deals they cut to keep the southern tribes trading rather than raiding.
 
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DragonParadox said:
@Nurgle oddly enough I think someone has already stolen a march on out there, Marienburg. Those are the sorts of deals they cut to keep the southern tribes trading rather than raiding.
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Marienburg I think should be brought into the fold and the idiots they have executed. They could make far more money being part of the empire than just having a monopoly. But I do agree with Marienburg way of throwing money at problems.
 
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