In addition to the above, Belegar mentioned them before we left for Karag Dum:
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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I was not aware the god of sneak thieves believed in bravery of all things. Someone page Ulric about someone muscling in on his turf.
- Location
- some computer lab
For all we know we got Him all excited to go double or nothing with heists on this expedition, and we decided to fold.I was not aware the god of sneak thieves believed in bravery of all things. Someone page Ulric about someone muscling in on his turf.
- Location
- Australia
One of his strictures is "It's better to live free and die, rather than suffer under oppression", which implies a certain amount of belief in bravery to me.I was not aware the god of sneak thieves believed in bravery of all things. Someone page Ulric about someone muscling in on his turf.
He is the god who favors gamblers, not the god that pushes you to gamble. If you were pushed it's not much of a gamble is it?
Not knowing stuff is hardly oppression.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Well yeah, but by that logic you can find a virtue of almost any god that can be taken as implying bravery. Those Verenans are pretty brave to throw themselves onto pyres to rescue cursed books, you know!
- Location
- Australia
I mean yeah, you can, and it wouldn't be unjustified. The gods seem to like bravery.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Given the order in which events transpired, I assume @Andres110 was wondering if the avalanche came as a result of her choosing not to do anything about the slaves in Uzkulak, not anything involving our choices at Karag Dum.
That doesn't seem like his style, IMO. Mathilde didn't suffer directly, other people did, and for Ranald to kill Dawi engineers for Mathilde's sins looks an awful lot like an act of hostility towards Morgrim.
- Location
- Oklahoma
- Location
- Australia
I didn't seriously consider Ranald as the cause of the avalanche. Killing people for the sins of others isn't really his shtick. It was, however, notable in that you could probably interpret it that way and I wanted to comment on it. Mathilde turns a blind eye to oppression and an update later, a supreme stroke of ill fortune occurs.
So Mathilde turns a blind eye to the suffering of slaves and someone who is definitely not her dies for her sins? I think you have to have a very dark interpretation of Ranald to believe that, which she does not.
- Location
- Australia
I said in that very post you quoted that I did not believe that. Why would you say I believe that?
I not saying you believed that I was just pointing out as a rhetorical question why I think no one who does not have cause to dislike Ranald would believe that. Basically that would be his fifth face as Ranald the Asshole.
- Location
- Australia
Alright then. Thought I don't think only those who dislike Ranald would think that. Like with the cultists of all the other gods, some Ranaldans are assholes and spout asshole theology.
- Location
- Russia
They are about as strong as "Normal Arrows of Average Bowman". They are Damage 3 in the RPG - exactly as normal arrows, weaker than bullets and bolts. Unlike normal arrows they auto-hit in the RPG, but I think that it is untrue in this quest (IIRC Mathilde missed with Shadow Knives before and they have the same rule). They beat normal arrows in rate of fire - an accomplished mage shoots several of them in one casting (2 for average journeyman, 3 for magister, 4 for LM). Max's great shooting speed is probably a fluff for this property. Maybe Max's mastery actually makes his Arrows as strong as crossbow bolts or maybe he is even faster than a normal wizard with them.
- Location
- Russia
Lore question which probably was asked and answered, but I honestly don't want to read half-hundred pages of discussion written since I last checked:
Why Norse Dwarves were isolated for thousands of years and only Thorgrim got the idea to check up on them? Norsca isn't deep chaos wastes even now, much less before Great War against Chaos. What exactly hindered Karaz Ankor to semi-regularly conduct armed expeditions to check on them, like with Karag Dum and Karak Azul? They don't exactly seem to have a big grudge (both in usual and dwarven sense) against then to deliberately avoid contact, since Thorgrim's news were positively met. Surely Thorgrim couldn't be that One Clever Person who got an idea after generations of idiots, since dwarves aren't idiots, so what is the reason?
Why Norse Dwarves were isolated for thousands of years and only Thorgrim got the idea to check up on them? Norsca isn't deep chaos wastes even now, much less before Great War against Chaos. What exactly hindered Karaz Ankor to semi-regularly conduct armed expeditions to check on them, like with Karag Dum and Karak Azul? They don't exactly seem to have a big grudge (both in usual and dwarven sense) against then to deliberately avoid contact, since Thorgrim's news were positively met. Surely Thorgrim couldn't be that One Clever Person who got an idea after generations of idiots, since dwarves aren't idiots, so what is the reason?
- Location
- Utrecht
IIrc, before Thorgrim, most Dwarf Kings were content to stay within their hold and keeping it safe.
Here's a bunch of snips from the Thorgrim Article. Not all of it is quest canon, for instance, Belegar is as old as Thorgrim here, while in quest, Belegar's grandfather was the Candidate.
Article: Although he returned victoriously, High King Alriksson's mind was uneasy. The other holds had not answered the call to arms with as many warriors as he had hoped. The Everlasting Realm felt separated by more than just distance and foes. Each stronghold was preoccupied with its own troubles, and he even suspected some of his royal cousins had fallen to the gold-sickness, a disease that, if unchecked, ended in isolationism and madness, misers starving to death upon hoarded piles of gold. Furthermore, the High King knew he was slowly dying from his wounds and that he no longer had an heir.
---
The Dwarf king of every stronghold, along with the most powerful thanes and the royalty of every clan, made the dangerous trek to the halls of the High King.
---
Even as High King Alriksson quieted the crowd to begin the pronouncement, a latecomer marched into the vast hall. It was none other than the High King's sister's son, Thorgrim, who had earlier been presumed slain. He was well known in Karaz-a-Karak and had long been mentored by the aged High King. Now he returned, flanked by a sight not seen in Karaz-a-Karak for thousands of years — a contingent of Dwarfs from Norsca
---
For during the campaign in Kislev, after High King Alriksson had been injured, it had been Thorgrim who had re-established the old ties with those long distant clans. In turn, each of the Norscan kings spoke of Thorgrim, and of the deeds of valour he had performed in the icy north; of great monsters slain and battles won. Such acts were not the extent of Thorgrim's journeys. Thorgrim, along with other members of his clan, had entered several of the Lost Holds, seeking out those treasures which remained hidden, or hunting down and slaying those creatures that dared claim the revered artefacts made by the Dwarfs of old.
I think you may be seriously underestimating the terrible state of Karaz Ankor, and how difficult it would be for them to muster up an army and march north. They have enemies much closer to home that they can't afford to let unguarded. Getting to Karaz-a-Karak is considered a dangerous trek.
We may have seen a mostly defeated Thorgrim in quest, but at the time of his coronation, he was a legendary badass.
Don't undersell his deeds.
- Location
- Aotearoa
What IF said, plus I'm pretty sure they thought the Norse Dwarves fell thousands of years beforehand, after whatever schism split occurred.
As far as the Karaz Ankor was concerned, there was no-one to check up on. Those Norse holds were not even connected to the Golden Age Waystone Nerwork, IIRC.
NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Contact with the Norse Dwarves was lost during the Coming of Chaos back when the Old Ones were still around. In fact the Coming of Chaos is what caused them to disappear. IIRC when Snorri Whitebeard and Malekith were going around killing Chaos together they went up to the territory where the Norse Dwarves were took a look at the Daemon density and decided not to bother because they couldn't permanently clear away Chaos so close to the North Chaos Gate and there was no way there could be any survivors with that many Daemons around. They judged it uninhabitable even by Golden Age standards. The fact that the Norse Dwarves were extinct was practically axiomatic for millennia, at least until Thorgrim came back with proof to the contrary much like an astronaut returning from the Moon with a sample container full of cheese.
Resonant
Procrastinator Supreme
I'm not familiar with Warhammer canon but the Karaz Ankor timeline has always stumped me on one major issue:
- The Chaos Dwarves believed their Ancestor-Gods abandoned them, ergo, Valaya and her siblings existed & performed their deeds before the Split happened.
- The Dwarven Ancestor-Gods were known for overcoming the Coming of Chaos (AKA Polar Gate breach), thus, the Norse Dwarves split from the Karaz Ankor after Runes were invented, after Caledor Dragontamer created the Vortex.
- Dwarves expanded North through the World's Edge Mountains before finally splitting off to Norsca/East. Johann witnessed
So I'm struggling to fit these facts coherently since it doesn't make sense for the Norse Dwarves to have lost contact due to the initial Coming of Chaos.
My headcanon goes something like:
1. Dwarven Expansion of World's Edge Mountains, Old Ones still walked on Mallus (Pre-Karaz Ankor)
2. FIRST Coming of Chaos + Ancestor-Gods establish Karaz Ankor (Pre-Golden Age)
3. Ancestors-Gods disappear, Dwarves split off to Norsca/East. Karaz Ankor begins Golden Age.
4. 2nd Chaos Incursion isolated Norse Dwarves and made the Eastern Dwarves become Dawi-Zharr.
Anyone with more lore trivia can shed some light on this?
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- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Even if we donate all of it and/or suggest that the expedition does it instead of ourselves?
Anyway, I would expect Johann and Max to do something like that from their own capital.
But how come Barrak Varr didn't hear anything about them from Human traders or explorers?
- Location
- Utrecht
This is mostly theorycrafting on my end (and Rhunrikki Strollar), but i think that the struggle is that you are mistaken about the oldest hold.
The dwarfs originated in the southlands, not at Karaz-a-Karak (The oldest recorded Hold is Karak Zorn), and migrated north, following the mineral rich worlds edge mountains.
Article: It is likely that this was the closest stronghold to the original homelands of the Dwarfs in the southern part of the Worlds Edge Mountains
Karaz-a-Karak and Eight peaks were probably founded at the same time period.
The norse holds and the eastern holds, were presumably founded later, still before the great incursion, but well after K8P and KaK, and they were never connected to the underway, because the incursion happened.
Uzkulak was probably a step towards the mountains of Mourn, where the modern day ogre kingdoms are. According to Snorri, the dwarfs did reach there.
When he great incursion happened:
-The north becomes so demon infested, that the more southernly holds believe "nothing could have survived" and give up trying to make contact. It was so demon infested that Snorri Whitebeard and Malekith said "fuck that". The Northern holds were under siege for longer, for a significant part of the golden age, and didn't venture south after that ordeal was over. There wasn't a split, as much as a separation by time and distance.
-The eastern dwarfs of Uzkulak fall to Hashut, and migrate south, creating Zharr Naggrund, a complete departure from the dwarf cultural norms: It's a fortress-temple-city built on a massive plain, as opposed to a fortress-city delved into a mountain. For their blasphemy, and probably worse sins, Karaz Ankor declares an eternal grudge against Chaos dwarfs. There were probably several wars of extermination, but even with golden age level power, they never destroyed Zharr Naggrund.
I have no idea. Warhammer canon is a mess?
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Probably because the only humans the Norse Dwarves had interacted since basically forever are some variant of chaos worshipping murders who want to kill them all and steal their shit or worse. After so long the idea of any form of none hostile humans would probably seem vaguely comical to them. They'd be very unlikely to interact with human explorers beyond possibly killing them frankly. If the hellscape of the north didn't kill them all first. Plus why the hell would traders be going north of all places? Unless they had a deathwish of some kind.
One other thing to keep in mind is Kislev is not that old a polity, and before Magnus reunited the place the Empire was also not so great for travel. It's only recently (In Dwarf reckoning at least) that you could do something like travel from Vlag to KaK in (for the most part) friendly territory the entire way.
On the other hand, Karaz Ankor dwarves were living on the plains along the rivers of what would become Kislev for thousands of years during the Golden Age with no contact with the Norscan dwarves a couple of hundred miles away.
Presumably because the Norscan dwarves had raised their Wardstones and were hidden so well that they couldn't be found, and they didn't venture out of their warded valleys except to fish the northern seas. They only contacted the southern forces of order when their tunnel from the northern sea to the Sea of Claws was complete, which they then did within a couple of years.
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