I mean they can be shaped by public belief without being blind automatons. We are shaped by our upbringing and culture for instance but that does not mean we are bereft of free will. Let's take Signmar, he can sincerely believe wizards are evil due to the aggregate belief of His worshipers, but he can also believe Chaos and the destruction of the Empire is worse and thus tolerate using said damned people in its defense.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
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I mean they can be shaped by public belief without being blind automatons. We are shaped by our upbringing and culture for instance but that does not mean we are bereft of free will. Let's take Signmar, he can sincerely believe wizards are evil due to the aggregate belief of His worshipers, but he can also believe Chaos and the destruction of the Empire is worse and thus tolerate using said damned people in its defense.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
Border princes. It used to be called Lichtenber and was part of the Empire.
It is like I am not banging this drum for a long time or anything.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Landslide votes always quickly turn into a listless thread picking up totally unrelated conversation topics. So obviously I will dig up an old one.
The thing I've been really wondering is what the reaction is going to be like to the "Ranald stole a Dwarf soul" announcement. Because it doesn't technically state that Mathilde is the Umgi in question, and I genuinely don't know how well others would be able to make the connection, or if everyone already understands it's about her and her new legal status. If it'd be a commonplace conclusion, then our nominally secret religion just got broadcasted everywhere. That sucks, and I am kinda imagining Mathilde's initial reaction of genuine outrage as her secret faith is outed and her humanity is denied to her by a council of stodgy traditionalists that can't accept that a human could be capable of what she has done for the Dawi. If Ranald is entirely behind it, however, I guess she'd accept it, but still it might sting.
That is a good theory for how this happened. Ranald might be willing to take the potential Grudging, especially one that might be ruled to be already paid back by Mathilde, to make this known. It's a fairly large renown boost in a way, people ascribe an insane feat of thievery to him, and it's also accomplished through a clever lie which is equally within his spheres of influence so Bonus Points, and Mathilde gets even more famous.
On that note,
I just noticed the wording, "an enquiry". Did a Dwarven priest get into contact with a Ranaldite priest and officially inquire Ranald if he did what they are suspecting? Leading to this meme, in which Ranald can't help himself and fucks with the Dwarves, making him the "source of indisputable repute" that convinced them? That's probably it right? They took the God of Trickery at his word?
The thing I've been really wondering is what the reaction is going to be like to the "Ranald stole a Dwarf soul" announcement. Because it doesn't technically state that Mathilde is the Umgi in question, and I genuinely don't know how well others would be able to make the connection, or if everyone already understands it's about her and her new legal status. If it'd be a commonplace conclusion, then our nominally secret religion just got broadcasted everywhere. That sucks, and I am kinda imagining Mathilde's initial reaction of genuine outrage as her secret faith is outed and her humanity is denied to her by a council of stodgy traditionalists that can't accept that a human could be capable of what she has done for the Dawi. If Ranald is entirely behind it, however, I guess she'd accept it, but still it might sting.
That is a good theory for how this happened. Ranald might be willing to take the potential Grudging, especially one that might be ruled to be already paid back by Mathilde, to make this known. It's a fairly large renown boost in a way, people ascribe an insane feat of thievery to him, and it's also accomplished through a clever lie which is equally within his spheres of influence so Bonus Points, and Mathilde gets even more famous.
On that note,
Ranald after receiving an enquiry from the Karaz Ankor Conclave, 2486, colourised:
I just noticed the wording, "an enquiry". Did a Dwarven priest get into contact with a Ranaldite priest and officially inquire Ranald if he did what they are suspecting? Leading to this meme, in which Ranald can't help himself and fucks with the Dwarves, making him the "source of indisputable repute" that convinced them? That's probably it right? They took the God of Trickery at his word?
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I mean it's possible Human gods are a mixture, shaped by the belief of mortals that worship them but not wholely shaped by them.
- Location
- Finland
And while were talking of Ranald and any hypothetical soul thefts...
Who does a free floating soul belong to? Does Karaz Ankor, or the Ancestor Gods, lay claim of ownership to all dawi souls?
Is Hashut a thief for taking dawi zhar souls to himself?
Did Ranald answer the enquiry by denying any allegations of taking any dawi souls from the glittering realm, while leaving open the possibility he might have grabbed one waiting for reincarnation?
Who does a free floating soul belong to? Does Karaz Ankor, or the Ancestor Gods, lay claim of ownership to all dawi souls?
Is Hashut a thief for taking dawi zhar souls to himself?
Did Ranald answer the enquiry by denying any allegations of taking any dawi souls from the glittering realm, while leaving open the possibility he might have grabbed one waiting for reincarnation?
- Location
- Greece
These are fair points and do make sense, but even so, it comes full circle: the question isn't "where do gods come from" but "why do they act the way they act". If gods have a developed personality, they shouldn't allow strong important moral contradictions in the practice of important strictures while blessing everyone on all sides, even the hypocrites. If they have no developed personality, well, this goes very contrary to their actions with Magnus and the Ronald letter being actions of explicit persnal preference.
I guess they could just be so big they do not notice much except for the big historical waves, acting like passive winds any priest can scoop up and use, and that the reason Magnus and Mathilde get noticed is because they are in the middle of said waves... but... Ranald consoled us personally before we made any really big waves. Any theory I can think of comes with a contradiction.
Maybe Ranald in particular, due to his nature, hears even the little folk, like my omake implied, but others do not? Then again, he also allows blatant contradictions... though... maybe he punishes people subtly and karmically instead of being showy, so no one notices his interventions? Its a big stretch, and it implies a certain difference in approach between gods that care about every prayer and ones that can only look at the big picture, ignoring the conduct of most ants that scoop some of their power, but its the only theory that can be stretched enough to not be contradicted.
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I don't see that this need be the case, Gods even more than humans are vast, and can contain multitudes. If two sects have disagreements but both still fall enough into the Venn diagram that represents the god, then let them duke it out.
That's basically Cythons position the matter. Or to be more precise, it's the corollary to Cython's take that Winds are just Gods with less personality.
Though it should be mentioned that there is a flaw in that argument, daemons using Wind magic. If you posit that the winds are gods than they must be at least inclined towards self-preservation, which is to say opposed to Chaos, because 'no world, no winds'. Yet you have lowly daeonettes of Slaanesh using Ulgu.
There's plenty of ways to explain that. Maybe they don't have the attention to spare so they don't notice, maybe doing something about would cost too much. Maybe they aren't inclined to self-preservation, or maybe they don't see that as threatening. Or maybe it doesn't threaten them, the winds are born at the heart of Chaos' power, and still exist. Chaos taking over the world would only make the rest of the world like that.
Or maybe it differs by Wind. Ulgu doesn't care, but some of the other do, and that's why daemons can't use those winds. I don't think so, but there's enough unknowns that it's possible.
A Lord of Change can in fact use all winds so we know it's not the last at least.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Do you mean a generic one, or Kairos Fateweaver specifically? Because generic LoC only have Tzeentch and Metal, though KF can access all 8 base Winds.
Not as she is. But fear not. As Rosvita has proven, a woman can become the female counterpart of an Elector Count, an Elector Countess. If you were to settle for that, whole three letters more than count even, Mathilde would not require a sex change to fullfil your ambitions.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
I think there's a distinction to be made between god-granted miracles and priest-channeled miracles.
God-granted miracles happen at the gods discretion, that's clear. But priest-channelled miracles happen at the discretion of the priest using power drawn from the god.
We've already seen that power can be drawn from an unwilling god once a channel has been established, and that was a very temporary channel.
So priest-channelled miracles might not require the approval of the god in question at all, merely that the miracle match the flavour of the god whose power they are drawing on.
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- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
If the winds are gods then they're a category of gods distinct from both the human gods and the chaos gods - one unconcerned with the mortal races entirely.
From the viewpoint of them as gods their miracles are more along the lines of "where Ulgu pools mists form" and "where Ghyran pools plants grow" than "where a human is in desperate need of aid against the winter, Ulric saves them"
EDIT: I don't find it plausible that they are gods however, because of the fact Aethyric Vitae solely influenced by one wind became all eight winds. Not something we would see unless the eight-way split is somehow inherent rather than being the product of eight collaborating deities.
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Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
On the other hand, Kasmir's current theory is that his failing to save Abel was Sigmar's will, which seems to run counter to this theory.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
There's definitely been implications before that priests that lose the favor of their deity enough lose the ability to cast their spells. I think this is specifically brought in cases like that one Shallya sect that kills people to fight plague.
- Location
- Czech Republic
Perhaps Kasmir was perfectly capable of healing Abel but Sigmar actively prevented it.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
It would seem like something of an own-goal for Sigmar...
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Could be a matter of degrees - if you're channeling power from a god that likes you it'll often be easier. From one that doesn't care for you, standard. From one that dislikes you? An occasional penalty. If they absolutely despise you? Then they put in the necessary effort to cut you off.
Ulric clearly hates "people surviving-the-cold by working with others who call on Chaos" less than Shallya hates "people claiming to encourage health by killing plague victims"
Most obvious explanation: He's wrong.
His failing to save Abel was a failure on his part to connect to Sigmar in order to channel said power, not Sigmar actively denying him. OOC the "lack of confidence -50" malus definitely suggests that at least part of the failure was on him.
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Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Which means that a God does in fact have influence over what powers their priests exhibit.
... Unless Sigmar directly made an anti-healing miracle, I suppose.
It's Kasmir's own belief.
Which makes Mathilde's current feelings about the so-called deity justified by the words of a direct member of the Sigmarite church.
- Location
- Czech Republic
It could be bit of both. They could just let their priests do their thing and only rarely get personally involved.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Question: can someone give me the details about Silver Arrows of Arha, in terms of its stats and lore? Given that Max's use of a crossbow as a focus for turning the spell into a magical machine gun, it has me wondering about the spell.