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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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You know, I've just thought of something.

The dwarfs have grudged Ranald (lets ignore the debates about a) whether he did steal a soul and b) if the dwarfs truly believe that and it's not a politically convenient statement for some other purpose).

Ranalds main temple is in Marienburg.

Marienburg has been playing silly buggers with the Empire and Barak Varr, to the point where they are the top suspects in an attack upon a dwarf ship.

The Dwarfs now have a concrete capital-G reason to march an army into Marienburg.

... We're going to come back to find everything in flames, aren't we.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
One could argue they'd already learned to trust wizards from the elves.
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I think only thing dwarves learned from elves is not to trust them. I mean Melekith alone is enough to prove wizards are untrusthworthy. We are reversing that for human wizards.

Truthfully I am surprised that you were able to say this with stright face, there is nothing that elgi does that dwarves would call good.
 
Tasoli said:
I think only thing dwarves learned from elves is not to trust them. I mean Melekith alone is enough to prove wizards are untrusthworthy. We are reversing that for human wizards.

Truthfully I am surprised that you were able to say this with stright face, there is nothing that elgi does that dwarves would call good.
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Obviously things changed. Learning the value of wizards is not a new thing for the Dwarves.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
'Looks at this conversation.'

'looks at the idea of creating a giant library of all the knowledge in the closest place between the two empires that can be called 'safe''

Uhhhh.... the above conversation might become relevant if the BOOKBOON goes through. (and add Ind and Arrby to it)

maybe not possible (depends on how boney feels about it) but definitely relevant.

especially if we plan to have an active role in it.

(I think it would not break 'I'm not worldbuilding Ind and Cathay' clause because its not going to Cathy, but only adding what elements Boeny feels like to the Libary.)

that said any contacted would require visiting the embassy and well... that would be its own adventure.
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actually expanding on this (sorry anti-bookboon people).

A lot has been said about the Stewardship and Indiana Jones aspect of the job if we become Head librarian.

but actually thinking about it, there would be a lot of Dip and travel to the job as well.

because realistically, We would need to get a lot of 'Buy in' from different groups to do it effectively to get originals, copies or at least transcripts of books, maps tapestries etc etc.

from private collectors to colleges to Nations. (to at least ok it, if not help) we would need to convince people to the dream (or twist their arm/Bribe them/scratch their backs etc.)

ya, if that was part of the job I would more then have my Travel ich scratched while people get to say in K8Ps....
 
Garlak said:
Hmm. The trouble with people believing you have the power to steal souls from Chaos, or you actually gaining said power, is that people expect you to steal souls from Chaos.
This means getting into frequent fights with Chaos.
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No it doesnt.
How much of a brawl did the power heist from Mork involve? And that was with Ranald literally sitting across from the dude, not pilfering the contents of a Dark Gods pockets or snatching off a bunch of souls on a sacrificial altar. Successful thieves avoid fights.

I have nothing to say about the truth or otherwise of the restof your argument.
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Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Dec 31, 2020 at 6:25 PM, finished with 1221 posts and 223 votes.
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Jyn Ryvia said:
actually expanding on this (sorry anti-bookboon people).

A lot has been said about the Stewardship and Indiana Jones aspect of the job if we become Head librarian.

but actually thinking about it, there would be a lot of Dip and travel to the job as well.

because realistically, We would need to get a lot of 'Buy in' from different groups to do it effectively to get originals, copies or at least transcripts of books, maps tapestries etc etc.

from private collectors to colleges to Nations. (to at least ok it, if not help) we would need to convince people to the dream (or twist their arm/Bribe them/scratch their backs etc.)

ya, if that was part of the job I would more then have my Travel ich scratched while people get to say in K8Ps....
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Why on Earth would we be running the place? It's a transcendent boon, the point is that Belegar takes care of all of that for us.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Why on Earth would we be running the place? It's a transcendent boon, the point is that Belegar takes care of all of that for us.
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cuse it might be a fun thing to do as a job choice? (Learning/Dip and Stewardship in one?)

I totally expect that if we don't do it has mathy's main job it would be Belegar (or an adviser) doing the main work.

but I'm just saying it is an option for the main job instead of loremaster.
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
How do they know what Mathilde's soul is

Like, am I going crazy? You mean the group who's never seen Mathilde in person, the people who, as far as we know, can't see souls like that? That group? They're the ones who can't be lying about the thing they have physically no way of telling is true? And this happened after and unrelated to the first time Mathilde used the Eye and exposed herself to Gazul, which was the only possible time that information could have come out? It's not 'lying' if all they have to go off is what we've done, because they can't go off anything else!
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It only took them 4 years to get through the paperwork for a confirmation from the Dwarfen underworld. The fact they've done so at such a rapid pace is evidence in and of itself. :V
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
cuse it might be a fun thing to do as a job choice? (Learning/Dip and Stewardship in one?)

I totally expect that if we don't do it has mathy's main job it would be Belegar (or an adviser) doing the main work.

but I'm just saying it is an option for the main job instead of loremaster.
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He'll hire someone qualified, and we'll leave it to them - though we might be involved in the design phase.

We're doing this to get massive library bonuses and because we think it'd be good for Karak Eight Peaks and the Empire, not because we want another AP sink. If anyone's against the boon because that's what they think it means, I'm pretty confident that that's not the prevailing plan.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
He'll hire someone qualified, and we'll leave it to them - though we might be involved in the design phase.

We're doing this to get massive library bonuses and because we think it'd be good for Karak Eight Peaks and the Empire, not because we want another AP sink. If anyone's against the boon because that's what they think it means, I'm pretty confident that that's not the prevailing plan.
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... I'm talking about changing jobs form loremaster to Head librarian. not adding another AP sink.

I would be for it.
 
Has Boney said anything about that idea floating around of using both the boon and a great deed to build a mixed Library/Research centre? I like the idea of having Humans and Dwarfs building something together more than any individual boon, and it would keep the theme of the Eye of Gazul in that we are stronger together.
 
das_slash said:
Has Boney said anything about that idea floating around of using both the boon and a great deed to build a mixed Library/Research centre? I like the idea of having Humans and Dwarfs building something together more than any individual boon, and it would keep the theme of the Eye of Gazul in that we are stronger together.
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It's very hard to come up with a reading of the Articles that would allow for the Empire's involvement in an international magic research center.
 
das_slash said:
Has Boney said anything about that idea floating around of using both the boon and a great deed to build a mixed Library/Research centre? I like the idea of having Humans and Dwarfs building something together more than any individual boon, and it would keep the theme of the Eye of Gazul in that we are stronger together.
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It might also play on our new legal status as both a dwarf and a human. Running an institution built by both, for both would be cool.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
actually expanding on this (sorry anti-bookboon people).

A lot has been said about the Stewardship and Indiana Jones aspect of the job if we become Head librarian.

but actually thinking about it, there would be a lot of Dip and travel to the job as well.

because realistically, We would need to get a lot of 'Buy in' from different groups to do it effectively to get originals, copies or at least transcripts of books, maps tapestries etc etc.

from private collectors to colleges to Nations. (to at least ok it, if not help) we would need to convince people to the dream (or twist their arm/Bribe them/scratch their backs etc.)

ya, if that was part of the job I would more then have my Travel ich scratched while people get to say in K8Ps....
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Reminds me a bit of the Mage Errant series by John Bierce. Its a magic academy series (a really good one) where the main character becomes apprenticed to a Library-Errant, a type of mage that's one part spy, one part Indiana Jones, and one part librarian, who's mission is to travel around and find rare books for the academies library.

There isn't a whole lot of travelling in the first few books, mind you, but it's still a really great series with some really original worldbuilding and interesting characters.
 
Alliterate said:
Following Boneys point on their perspective, I really didn't think there was anything to square. People talk themselves into truly believing all sorts of untrue things that they want to believe, I see no reason why dwarves would be immune to this failure mode.
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Talking themselves into believing Mathilde has a dwarf soul? Sure.

Talking themselves into believing that it was specifically stolen by Ranald is the bit that I find unlikely without evidence. I can't see them grudging Ranald on such threadbare evidence as "someone did something that resulted in Mathilde having a dwarf soul + she worships Ranald in adulthood". There are just too many other possible suspects - it could be elgi, it could be the Empire, it could be Tzeentch, it could be an accident by someone who just wasn't good enough at the Rites of Gazul and sent the soul sideways rather than down by accident.

Would a morrite doing what we've done would have got a Grudge against Morr? Would a sigmarite achieving such things cause them to grudge Sigmar? I'm highly doubtful.

Far more plausible to me is that they have evidence of Ranald doing something like stealing a soul in the past and they've decided that obviously that must be how Mathilde got her dawi soul.
 
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BoneyM said:
It's very hard to come up with a reading of the Articles that would allow for the Empire's involvement in an international magic research center.
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...Is this saying we can't use it for that? Because last I remember you had said we could use a boon to at least get permission to open a branch college focused on research, and maybe another to fund and equip it?
 
Been thinking about the Protector side of the Coin and Karak Vlag. I know we had some of this discussion after Karak Vlag was freed, but there was also a lot of distraction with the vote immediately following.

The Protector: When you act in a way that defends an individual or group from a danger that you did not cause, they will become aware of what you have done and will believe you acted selflessly in doing so.
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This really feels like a, "Have a drink and look out the balcony for a while," interaction. The incredibly traumatized dwarves of Karak Vlag don't believe in anything right now, but through the magic of the Coin they will "become aware" that Mathilde acted to defend them against being trapped by Chaos and think she did so selflessly. On the one side, extreme paranoia at being fucked with by Chaos for years, probably feeling like they were abandoned by the entire world, and they come from a time period when human magic users were outlawed and distrusted. This is almost as big a fight as the Deceiver against the paranoia of the Grey College.

I don't want to talk about rewards and dwarf favor. I'm just looking forward to seeing how all these traumatized veterans square this in their own heads. We can't trust magic or any outsider. This wizard definitely selflessly saved us. But we can't trust magic or any outsider. But she definitely selflessly saved us. Will their brains literally melt?

I think one of the reasons we've been a little reluctant to experiment with the magic of the Protector side of the coin was that it always kind of... unimpressive in concept. Oh wow, the magic of taking credit for things you actually did. Somehow, though, we definitely stumbled into the hardest possible test case. This is like "fooling a Skaven into teaching you Queekish" level bullshit. I'm not sure even at Karag Dum we'll find as good a test.
 
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kingreaper said:
Talking themselves into believing Mathilde has a dwarf soul? Sure.

Talking themselves into believing that it was specifically stolen by Ranald is the bit that I find unlikely without evidence. I can't see them grudging Ranald on such threadbare evidence as "someone did something that resulted in Mathilde having a dwarf soul + she worships Ranald in adulthood". There are just too many other possible suspects - it could be elgi, it could be the Empire, it could be Tzeentch, it could be an accident by someone who just wasn't good enough at the Rites of Gazul and sent the soul sideways rather than down by accident.

Would a morrite doing what we've done would have got a Grudge against Morr? Would a sigmarite achieving such things cause them to grudge Sigmar? I'm highly doubtful.

Far more plausible to me is that they have evidence of Ranald doing something like stealing a soul in the past and they've decided that obviously that must be how Mathilde got her dawi soul.
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I'm inclined to withhold judgement here till we see the official update and any additional context. Still, someone/thing 'obviously' had to lead her astray from Good Honest Natural Ancestor Worship. Still not convinced any precedent, perceived or otherwise, is required.
 
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Briefvoice said:
This really feels like a, "Have a drink and look out the balcony for a while," interaction. The incredibly traumatized dwarves of Karak Vlag don't believe in anything right now, but through the magic of the Coin they will "become aware" that Mathilde acted to defend them against being trapped by Chaos and think she did so selflessly. On the one side, extreme paranoia at being fucked with by Chaos for generations, probably feeling like they were abandoned by the entire world, and they come from a time period when human magic users were outlawed and distrusted. This is almost as big a fight as the Deceiver against the paranoia of the Grey College.

I don't want to talk about rewards and dwarf favor. I'm just looking forward to seeing how all these traumatized veterans square this in their own heads. We can't trust magic or any outsider. This wizard definitely selflessly saved us. But we can't trust magic or any outsider. But she definitely selflessly saved us. Will their brains literally melt?
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I'll point out that Karak Vlag should have actually been the friendliest hold to magic users when they were stolen, because they live near both Kislev and Praag. Praag used to be the center of magical research in the Old World, and Kislev's Hags and Ice Witches have had major roles in their society for hundreds of years.
 
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