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@BoneyM Can dwarf runes even do illusions?

And can we have an option for Mathilde to infiltrate closer using her magic (waiting until nightfall if need be, while the expedition turns back and gains some distance)?

Also, wouldn't Morghur just be able to see us already, if we can see him plainly (and are close enough to see enough detail to make out what he's doing)? Why hasn't he attacked yet?
 
@BoneyM Can we present more than one theory to the council? Something like this
[ ] THEORY: Well, it could either be a really convincing illusion or it they have managed somehow to use the Beastmen as ablative shields.
 
@BoneyM Can dwarf runes even do illusions?

Mathilde hasn't heard of any illusion Runes, but that doesn't they don't exist, and it definitely doesn't mean they've never existed.

And can we have an option for Mathilde to infiltrate closer using her magic (waiting until nightfall if need be, while the expedition turns back and gains some distance)?

You can vote for Mathilde to suggest that.

Also, wouldn't Morghur just be able to see us already, if we can see him plainly (and are close enough to see enough detail to make out what he's doing)? Why hasn't he attacked yet?

Presumably. Mathilde has no idea why he hasn't attacked.

Did Mathilde see any Ghur at all? Aren't Beastmen usually associated with Ghur?

The entire area is pretty saturated with Winds.

@BoneyM Can we present more than one theory to the council? Something like this
[ ] THEORY: Well, it could either be a really convincing illusion or it they have managed somehow to use the Beastmen as ablative shields.

I'll pick an amount of the most popular theories for Mathilde to present. If you think it could be one of multiple things, vote for each of them individually.
 
I think that the 'Morghur' we saw is pretty certainly not the Morghur we're familiar with. Either he's been changed to have a radically different character, such as my proposal that he was reborn as a dwarf and redeemed by the Valayan rites, or it's someone wearing a Morghur suit of some kind.

Either way, this is very interesting, and potentially very valuable.

Particularly if this is/was actually Morghur. Him being busy at Dum fighting chaotic steppe tribes is a pretty unalloyed benefit for the world, whatever reason he's doing it for.
 
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No matter what's up here, if Borek really did what he just did then he is our enemy.

There is no other reason for him to leave without even some explanaiton.

My believe is however a giant illusion.
 
Any talk of illusion implies that the Dwarves have both been successfully defending against Chaos challengers this whole time, and never had their illusion broken. That is a very successful state of affairs that doesn't match up with Borek going "Well shit, let everyone know that we tried really fucking hard, may the Ancestors forgive what my Hold has resorted to".
 
The entire area is pretty saturated with Winds.
Hmm... Mathilde has Avatar, right? Did she sense any divine energies?

Is she able to even tell that the 'forests' have Ghyran? Or is it so saturated she isn't even able to tell that, which might be indicative of something.

Actually, do the forests look normal, for forests, or do they have mutations and weird shapes we would expect from something that has been exposed from the sheer amount of dhar and winds?
 
I love this. Easy access to the rulebooks and wikis and I have no idea at all about what's going on.

All I know is that this will make sense later and that we can expect exorbitant amounts of utter weirdness. Also it will be fun.
I love this quest.
 
Wild theory expanded:

[ ] THEORY: The Karag Dum dwarfs once experimented with their waystone and turned their hold into a backdoor portal into Athel Loren or some other nightmarish forest realm.
This explains the primeval forest, the missing mountains and the initial source of the Beastmen, as the dwarfhold is magically connected with somewhere else.
Most importantly it explains Borek's suspicions on what the Morghur meant for Karag Dum. Because Karag Dum's experimentation and connection to the Beastmen predates being cut off.

Karag Dum is now mass producing Beastmen for their own ends, their Runelords are manipulating Dhar via runecraft. They don't need to corrupt their waystone to delve into the dark arts.
So Karag Dum dwarfs are literally biomancer chaos dwarfs in this setting. But do they serve anyone or just themselves?

Are the Wood Elves being constantly attacked by Beastmen hordes that come out of nowhere? Maybe this is the source in this canon.

Morghur is the result of such experimentation and they might even have used Dwarf test subjects to create it.
Morghur's immortality might be from harnessing the Karag Dum waystone.

[ ] ACTION: Get expedition to stay out of range of Beastmen and Kurgan while we confirm theory.
Ask resident Jade Wizard to help identify flora and fauna. Check for signs of magic portals, rituals or runic arrays.
 
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Kul as far as Mathilde knows has a pretty wide coverage of where their border meets Dum, Kvellige not so much, and it seems like they maybe took over some of Yusak's territory. Either way if they were present at the moment it seems odd they'd both crowd all the way at the north together. @BoneyM, do the abandoned banners we've seen have any signs of battle around them, or are all the bones and such down in the desert?

 
An attempt at enumerating the possibilities we're working with:
#1: Borek is still a loyal dwarf on Team Order.
#2: Borek has recently fallen or is currently falling to Chaos
#3: Borek has joined some third party faction, like the Orcs are.
#4: "Borek" was an illusion or the Changeling all along, or perhaps fell to Chaos long ago.

I think #1 should be my starting hypothesis.
#1 has the weight of background evidence to it, from the Karaz Ankor and from Mathilde both interacting with him extensively, and seeing pretty much a loyal dwarf. Moody, bitter, distressed, showing Slayer tendencies, not entirely mentally healthy, but those are understandable in his situation and they don't change the underlying dwarfhood. The last words we hear from him are the very dwarfish "May the Ancestors forgive us."
Opposed to this is the evidence for the specific other cases, which I will attempt to enumerate.

Recent evidence for #2:
-something which looks like Morghur acted welcoming to Borek.
-Borek just set off into the Chaos Wastes.
Against which I would argue:
-this would require Morghur to be better at spotting Chaos allegiance in five minutes than all of us in five weeks
-Borek's Hold is there

Recent evidence for #3:
-WTF is going on here, it doesn't act like any normal faction
-Borek set off to someplace that's fighting the Kul (famously Chaos-aligned) but doesn't look like Dwarfs
Against which I would argue:
-This is well into the Chaos Wastes, Karag Dum can't be expected to look and act like a normal Dwarfhold
-Waystone link still operating

Recent evidence for #4:
-Mostly the same as #2
Against which I would argue:
-If Borek were the Changeling, or otherwise Chaos-aligned with a very long planning horizon and the gifts of subtlety and competence, he would have led us into a trap. 'Wait until I give the passwords, then drive ahead into the very scary defenses' and not 'tell the Karaz Ankor what has become of us'.

Dawongr of the Karak Anzakor
"Karaz Ankor" is probably the phrase you're looking for.
 
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Hmm... Mathilde has Avatar, right? Did she sense any divine energies?

No.

Is she able to even tell that the 'forests' have Ghyran? Or is it so saturated she isn't even able to tell that, which might be indicative of something.

I said 'saturated'. Everything has Ghyran, as well as every other Wind.

Actually, do the forests look normal, for forests, or do they have mutations and weird shapes we would expect from something that has been exposed from the sheer amount of dhar and winds?

They look normal for forests of this setting, which is still pretty terrifying by our standards.

@BoneyM, do the abandoned banners we've seen have any signs of battle around them, or are all the bones and such down in the desert?

All the bones are in the desert, and the banners weren't exactly abandoned, someone went to a lot of trouble with each one to stick them upright in the stone.
 
So...the fact that there is uncorrupted magic flowing from Karag Dum to Karak Vlag means that either Slaanesh needed to keep the flow uncorrupted for its gambit with Karak Vlag to continue working (though how in the world you'd get beastmen, let alone Morghur, to just besiege Karag Dum for centuries but not actually continually attack it until it falls is beyond me), or Karag Dum still has a holdout (or is holding out just fine--though how they'd manage that in such conditions where there're basically no resources available outside the Karag, ever...?).

But this whole situation is fucked up. And the worst part is that even attempting to find out more information is going to be extremely dangerous.

Also, fuck Borek for just walking out on us immediately, leaving his entire Expedition hanging. A lot of people decided to march into hell with him for the sake of the mission. Him deciding to just walk off on his own into certain death the moment he saw Karag Dum is the height of disrespect and irresponsibility to the people who agreed to help him.
 
Hmm. Actually, another, potentially very important consequence of what I proposed...

The Chaos Grail.

A legendary relic mutates or transforms whoever drinks from it into a daemon prince.

There are a few possibilities. Perhaps the dwarves stole and harnessed its power. It's not something that belongs to any particular Chaos God, so it may be something that any priest can make use of - potentially including the Priests of Thungni via runes.

Alternatively, perhaps the Chaos Gods wanted to force feed a somehow redeemed/controlled Morghur from the Chaos Grail to corrupt/free him. The Yusak tried, and failed, which is why they're on the outs.
 
So. As far as i understand this. Karag Dum somehow managed to fucking enslave Morghur Shadowgave to protect their hold. Its the only thing that adds up with uncorrupted Waystone, and with the goddamn weirdness.
Unless, of course, they are giving him something in exchange for protection that gives him a better chance at taking out/taking stuff from the wood elves.
No wait, this seems deeper.

@BoneyM
Why didn't Borek mutate when Morghur reached out to touch him? Or to put question more clearly, from someone who only knows about Morghur from the wiki, it kinda seems like one of his powers is to mutate whatever he touches. Is that wrong of me to think, and it's not actually one of his powers?

Does she still think that the mountain is designed to look like a herdstone from a distance?
And can she find the waystone flow to determine whether or not the flow of magic is consistent with it being converted into a herdstone?
As in, it hasn't changed since we left Vlag.

What is the literal Khazalid translation of 'Cor' as found in Cor-Dum?

Are the trees we're seeing consistent with having been displaced from Bretonnia?

One last question, I know there was mention of it taking a month to reset the coin, but we've had it on Protector for longer than that, can we change to face now and just be unable to change it for another month?

Borek said:
"Karag Dum remembers much that others have forgotten, even when some might prefer we didn't. Even when we might prefer we didn't."

And has indicated a general well-regard for the wellbeing of the innocent that is inconsistent with loyalty to chaos, yet was unsurprised by the presence of Morghur, and was greeted affectionately by him.

Knowledge says: - Morghur is said to have been 'born' three hundred years ago, but there's stories of beings identical to him stretching back throughout recorded history.
Morghur is reborn whenever he is killed.

Borek expected Morghur, Morghur favors Borek, Borek isn't chaos-aligned. Obvious conclusion, Morghur is aligned with Borek in some way apart from alignment to chaos.
Less obvious conclusion: Morghur is aligned with Karag Dum because he is a dwarf.
That is to say, the first version of Morghur was born a dwarf.

How did they get the divine axe in OTL? And why should anyone think that when Grimnir went north those sworn to defend him wouldn't go north with him? And what would one of them become if they went and came back?


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[ ] THEORY: Physical signs point to Morghur having been holding the area against nomad raiders for a very long time, and history implies that he's not been seen in the old world since approximately when Karag Dum would have come under attack during the Great War against Chaos.
He's been here this whole time.
And something is preventing him from wandering on.
Magical signs and, less reliably, intuition about Borek, point to there being something uncorrupted in that mountain in the middle.

Theory continued: Borek expected Morghur, Morghur favors Borek, Borek isn't chaos-aligned(he had the chance to prevent us from acting on Vlag, but he didn't, and was, in fact, happy about the result). Obvious conclusion, Morghur is aligned with Borek in some way apart from alignment to chaos.
Less obvious conclusion: Morghur is aligned with Karag Dum because he was a dwarf.
That is to say, the first incarnation of Morghur was born a dwarf, far longer ago than merely 300 years ago.
And Dwarf souls that never have the rites to send them to the underearth are ejected from the aether, and reincarnated into new bodies to live another life.
Morghur was originally a secret shame of Karag Dum, his first incarnation was a dwarf that went into the chaos wastes and was changed into what he is now. Possibly someone who followed Grimnir, then had the shame of coming back alive/having his soul corrupted by chaos down to the core so as to cause disaster when reborn, possibly someone else important to Karag Dum's history, important enough to remember rather than burying or forgetting to dull the shame.
They have formed a pact with Morghur to defend them and probably isolate them from everything outside, in the words of others 'much could have been seen as justified in that time', but it is still uncertain whether they've actually fallen into corruption.

[ ] ACTION: either feign retreat while we secretly return to scout out the situation, or fort up while we scout out the situation.
Ask the local tribes to get confirmation of how long Cor-Dum has been here, and a story of how he arrived. In fact, maybe send some winter Wolves and Hubert(or just Hubert)somewhere to ask, Hubert knows Khazalid right?
Determine whether we can actually keep up our stealth magic within the forest(and the associated relative proximity to Morghur[I'm not clear on his range]) if we can, scout to determine whether there are actually dwarves on the inside, whether they've gone over to chaos, and whether they would actually want to leave.
If they would actually want to, it might be possible to distract the Beastmen enough that they don't intercept an attempt to get them out.
Note- if we infiltrate to find that there are uncorrupted dwarves interested in leaving and simultaneously the Beastmen are distracted by attacks from the tribes to the north, we will need a signal to be able to tell the rest of the expedition to get moving immediately.
Note2: if we can't pull this off immediately we might need to aquire more of a food margin.

[] WRITE IN: either alter meeting protocol and invite Asarnil to the command meeting, or brief him on what's going on immediately after, if we're going to consider staying to scope out the situation, we need to convince him that command hasn't gone insane to try to prevent him from just flying off, as he's one of the other people on this expedition that can just leave if it looks like we're lost.
Consider escape route, if we leave pursued by absurdly powerful Beastman, we might want to escape through the territory controlled by their current enemies, if we leave unpursued we might have time to try to improve the road and take the same route back as we took to get here.
Consider when we're going to steal that damn goblet, if we have the chance to delay any dwarf springing for long enough for the theft we might want to, otherwise we'll need to scamble to do it during the escape.
 
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People have posted lots of theories, so not gonna add to that. But in terms of action, I think leaving asap is just gonna make the steppe tribes more suspicious of us since we weren't here for pilgrimage.

[ ] ACTION: We have no clue what's going on but need to keep our cover up. Find and talk to the Kul and other tribes... sieging Col-Dum?
 
Okay, so if this were an illusion, it would be virtually impossible for any shaman to tell?

I don't think this is an illusion, though. The only way to really test would be to get one of the tribes to attack the place and look for discrepancies. Can we target the area with a really big Dispel?
 
They look normal for forests of this setting, which is still pretty terrifying by our standards.
She said familiar. Can Mathilde remember where she saw them? Or is it just generic forest canopy of the empire tm. Just trying to figure out if this is part of Athel Loren or any other Wood Elf forest (which we have never seen).
 
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