If I gave it abilities at all, it would be Loremaster. Unlike the Book of Arkhan or the Cursed Book it doesn't have magical properties of its own.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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If I gave it abilities at all, it would be Loremaster. Unlike the Book of Arkhan or the Cursed Book it doesn't have magical properties of its own.
Not only that, but I kinda doubt that distance isn't a factor at all.
I like our chances of linking K8P and Barak Varr/Karak Azul (or even Stirland/Averland) much more than Karag Dum that's basically on the other end of the continent.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Yes, it'll be great. Plus, one of Abel's goal was to erase the association that the van Hal name had with necromancy, and what better way to do that than to publicise how a Van Hal was the only one to get his act together and actually liberate Stirland?
And yes, those are good ideas, though we should probably skip on consulting De Verzzo, I fear that might be bad PR and I highly doubt he can be considered impartial. Ooh, and if we can get closer to Roswita that'll be great! Even if we don't officially work with her, I am sure tha-
... I still refuse to approve of this pairing. <.<
(more accurately, I think that if Roswita and/or Anton want their relationship smoothed over, they'll be able to do it on their own. It's not like they don't have excuses to contact each other, what with him being the Third Sword of the EIC now)
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Boney has said that ends with the empire a smoking ruin.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Would there even be enough left to smoke by that point? Just blood and ash.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
We know that Vlad knows it, Arkhan the Black almost certainly knows it, probably Neferata, and I'd put money on Mannfred knowing it, but I wouldn't be certain on anything more than that.
Those other copies of the Liber Mortis are notable for all being trapped to hell and back- instructions reversed, curses in the pages, etc. Dhar usage breeds paranoia and megalomania into it's users, and even if they started as the sort of people willing to share knowledge, by the time they actually have gotten anywhere in Necromancy they definitely won't be.
- Pronouns
- It/They
We need to make Mathilde's Mystical Memoirs now.
Give the side of Order a magical book.
- Location
- Canada
The internal dialogue on Frederick Van Hal is less of a contradiction than you might think, mostly because you are taking quotes way out of context
Van Hall had little innate talent for the arcane, his genius lay in his more mundane military acumen and his ability to take what little gift for magic he did have and wring it for all it was worth under the tutalage of Vlad von Carstein
The nature of Dhar is that it is potent but unstable, which is why petty sorcerers with such limited educations on the nature of magic can pose such a real threat to trained magisters who've dedicated their lives to refining their art
And why it's so tempting, it's a lot power on demand for any caster who's just willing to reach out and grasp it, without having to rely on years of careful study and practice
It's easy and readily available power that you don't need a lot of innate talent to wield
It's also unstable and corruptive of course, which are the primary reasons not to give into temptation, I'd wager a significant chunk of would be sorcerous overlords have blown themselves apart, crumbled under mutations, or otherwise taken themselves out of the equation when it turned out that that they could grasp power, but couldn't properly control it
Casting with Dhar is a gamble because its chaotic nature means that there is always a far greater possibility it will break free of your will and wreak havoc, it's a game you will lose eventually
The First Secret of Dhar solves a big problem here, instead of having to simply grab onto Dhar and struggle to force it to obey your will you bind it upon itself
You force stability and structure onto it while retaining its power
You gain the reins by which you can hold onto to Dhar and weave it into structured spells rather than having to haphazardly dip your hands in and mash it into shape before throwing it at the target
Of course if you ever do lose focus and the structure unwinds it'll blow up in your face, but simply having a proven method by which you can make Dhar act in a stable manner so long as you don't screw up is a huge improvement on wrestling it like a rabid animal
And it means you can handle vastly greater amounts of Dhar, greatly amplifying the power you can wield without needing a greater innate connection to magic
The counterintuitive nature of this knowledge makes it especially unlikely for someone to reach it on their own without guidance, and the advantage it gives makes it unlikely that many would be willing to share such knowledge if they possess it
Especially given how Dhar exposure tends to cause maddening paranoia among its many pleasant effects
Likewise you take the Vlad dismissing the idea of anyone managing to wield Nagash's art safely if Van Hall couldn't way out of context
Vlad was talking about his moral character, not his talent for wielding magic
Despite what safeguards Vlad could provide Van Hal's limited exposure to Dhar still corrupted his mind and drove what was once a good man to madness
Leading Vlad to conclude that mortals simply cannot wield necromancy safely
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Bob's Beard
I will punch you in the eyeballs with wooooooords!
Sounds about right, thank you for confirming.
Though I have to wonder - is there any sort of defense against losing Runesmithing via attrition of appropriately lineaged individuals, or is it straight up 'naw, if all the Runesmith lineage people die we just take that loss on the chin and never attempt to reinvent it or teach new users', and all the fatalistic ramifications that entails?
As I previously pointed out, the number of dwarves descended from Thungi is bound to increase over time, not decrease. Eventually nearly every dwarf will be able to claim descent. That's just how bloodlines work as long as you're not putting any restrictions like, "has to be first born son" or anything like that.
The Runesmith Clans spend a significant part of their considerable influence avoiding this. Men of Runesmith Clans are more likely to marry than those of most other Clans, and women are more likely to have their husband join the Runesmithing Clan instead of her joining his. That's not to say their numbers haven't declined over the years, but they haven't declined any faster than the Karaz Ankor in general has.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
...It's a shame we can't play Cupid for Kragg.
I think if the First Secret was as limited as you are making it out to be, then Vashanesh, Vlad von Carstein, was a terrible necromancer.
I mean, seriously, Dieter Helsnicht was regularily challenging the power of Middenland, one of the most powerful Imperial Provinces, pretty much on his lonesome and with only what magical lore he could scrape together, if he managed that for centuries without the First Secret then Vlad was a talentless hack for not taking down the Empire with it. Zacharias the Everliving is straight up a better necromancer on the tabletop than Vlad, how does he do it without the Secret?
And I would also like to point out that you probably don't need to be Nagash to figure out the First Secret independently. In fact, I would like to propose that it probably is rediscovered regularily by lucky, mad necromancers that survive long enough. The idea that to control Dhar you just need to squeeze it into place with your mighty will might be counterintuitive to Mathilde, but to a dark wizard that has been mainlining Dhar induced megalomania for decades? It might as well be the most intuitive thing in the world.
Of course the magic would do what you want! You are the greatest necromancer in the world, THE SECOND COMING OF NAGASH! I HAVE BECOME DEATH! MUAHAHAHA. etc.
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At that point, most will be rather lacking in focus, discipline, and attention to detail. That's when the whole 'burning from the soul outwards' thing happens.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Magic was never really his strength, that's Mannfred's thing. Vlad's strength was in his ability to actually corral a whole bloodline of Vampires to at least vaguely work together.
(and, you know, relying on the Von Carstein Ring to make him literally unkillable)
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Can't say I agree. This isn't a binary issue and there are far more sensible plans of action in-between 'tell virtually everyone how the extremely dangerous ancient monuments function' and 'do nothing at all'. You're also ascribing little agency to anyone else; it's entirely possible the problem will resolve itself without Mathilde lifting a finger. I'm not going to bet on it, but it's a possibility.
If you're serious about fixing the network I have no idea why you'd be advocating bringing in the southern practitioners or Ice Witches as opposed to, y'know, the Slann.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I mean, the Empire and the Colleges have relatively peaceful relations with the former two, and absolutely none with the Slann. Mathilde barely knows anything whatsoever about them.
Is that a most, but those who do manage maintain enough discipline go on to become Lord-tier Master Necromancers or a most, and there's so few of them that it doesn't matter and the only way to get at the First Secret is learning it from a source connected to Nagash?
- Location
- USA
Vlad was also a patient man. If the Ring didn't get stolen he would have continued his slow and steady grind against the empire and eventually would have won, which would have cowed anyone rebellious into submission with how futile opposing him would appear to be.
Arrogant on his part? Very, but everyone has their flaws.
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- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
...It's a shame we can't play Cupid for Kragg.
Better to get him an apprentice.
...new goal for Karag Dum: find a young Dwarf who is amazing at runes and see if we can persuade Kragg they meet his criteria.
Edit: also, would second secret of dhar work on Tomb King armies? Given the connection in magical lineage I figured it might, but I don't know what the old mortuary cults used or if it matters.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
The traditionalist's traditionalist isn't going to take on an apprentice from anywhere that has so much as been told what Radicalism was in passing, never mind from Karag Dum.
Not that Kragg'll take anyone at all - his refusal to take an apprentice is at least in part holding them to literally impossible standards as part of his belief that the Karaz Ankor has fallen so far.
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The Traditionalist's traditionalist is so traditional that he's kinda wrapped right back around to being kickflip as all hell; vaguely accepting of Zhuf nonsense! It's traditional for Runesmiths to work with magic users, if you go back far enough, after all.
We just need to get him that dang Seviroscope.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I would like to talk to him about it ever and find out if it's something he actually wants/needs: the thread invented the idea, but we've never run it by Kragg, not once. If he doesn't want it, we shouldn't worry about it.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I think there's a very real chance that Kragg is going to be in the awkward spot of not wanting it whilst he goes without, but grudgingly accepting it and warming up to it over time. And then he'll never see the 5 runes!