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I was talking about the Second Secret itself as opposed to deriving something form it, but fair enough if the answer is the same for both.

But Dispel Scrolls are exactly that - counterspell in a can.
I thought about mentioning Dispel, but it's not the same thing as counterspelling, though it can lead to similar results.

EDIT: Quoting a post only made of quotes doesn't show the quote, weird.
 
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Been thinking about this some more. Similar to how Burning Shadows became a Loremaster project all on its own, this seems like it could be a similar Mega-Project. We don't really know what "longer-range teleportation" actually entails, but suppose that (maybe with a tower at each end) it could reach from... I don't know, Karak Vlag to Karag Dum???

Just say for a moment that Karag Dum is holding. Even the ability to transport highly limited quantities of people or goods there (and back with a tower at the Karag Dum end?) could be a real game-changer. If nothing else, being able to teleport something as small as a letter would ensure lines of communication remain open. Teleportation-based trade is never going to replace the oxcart, but you know what? Being able to transport one person-mass to Karag Dum a day every day for 185 years would be probably be competitive with mounting an expedition of steam tanks there once every 185 years.

Imagine a tower at every karak. (Yes, I know convincing the king of each karak to let her build the damn thing would be a huge stretch in itself, but it's conceivable.) Again, mail service alone would be pretty incredible.

This is the type of mega-enchanting project that would be worthwhile.

We can also implement these in every major city In the empire.
 
I was talking about the Second Secret itself as opposed to deriving something form it, but fair enough if the answer is the same for both.


I thought about mentioning Dispel, but it's not the same thing as counterspelling, though it can lead to similar results.

EDIT: Quoting a post only made of quotes doesn't show the quote, weird.

Dispel Scrolls were probably named by the same geniuses who decided that it would be okay to have a Fire Ball and a Fireball, because contrary to their name they can't dispel anything that is already in effect, but can counterspell a spell during its casting. They also has nothing to do with a spell "Dispel" which actually can dispel lingering effects (and can't counterspell in the RPG but can be used for basic counterspelling in this quest).
 
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Random thought, but it wonder just how far away the magic turbulence from Karak Vlag returning reached, and whether any major settlements nearby noticed it. It's probably not important, but the reactions of random mages to a giant shockwave coming out of nowhere would probably be funny, at least.
 
Teleportation towers sound really neat. Vlag might even go along with building it there to stay in contact with Dum, but getting one built at Dum sounds like it would need another expedition and probably a ton of college favor to convince them to build and staff something in hell. (Assuming Dum isn't already a tomb, of course)

I like the idea of getting the Empire and Dwarfs to cooperate on more projects. It's always paid off big so far, like with destroying the vampire castle and building the Eye.
 
Can you imagine if we didn't have windsight and weren't as good at recognizing magical loot?

We'd walk out with entire cartfulls of random shiny rock necklaces.
 
I have to imagine that setting up a very high power teleportation tower network in the chaos wastes is pretty touch and go - you're practically at Tzeentch's doorstep and begging him to come screw things up.

Maybe it could be viable if Dum turns out to be a bubble of stability with its active Waystone and if we find some way to piggyback on the Waystone carrier signal for extra confidence, but barring something like that it doesn't really seem feasible.
 
Question for Boney, this is mostly for my curiosity. Has a imperial elf ever attend the magic colleges as a student?

What I mean by Imperial elf is one who is not part of the wood elfs or high elfs. But lives among mankind in the same way a clanless dwarf would.
 
Random thought, but it wonder just how far away the magic turbulence from Karak Vlag returning reached, and whether any major settlements nearby noticed it. It's probably not important, but the reactions of random mages to a giant shockwave coming out of nowhere would probably be funny, at least.

I believe that Kislev spellcasters may have felt it, while some Colleges (particularly Gold as the most "sciency" and White as the most anti-Chaos) possibly has some devices that could have registered that (much like seismometer can register a distant earthquake).

Can you imagine if we didn't have windsight and weren't as good at recognizing magical loot?

We'd walk out with entire cartfulls of random shiny rock necklaces.
Without Windsight we couldn't be a wizard and I don't see us visiting Uzkulak in that case. I believe that even with a basic Windsight we would be able to distinguish between a Powerstone and a polished rock, although some higher-quality forgeries could have probably fooled us.

Question for Boney, this is mostly for my curiosity. Has a imperial elf ever attend the magic colleges as a student?

What I mean by Imperial elf is one who is not part of the wood elfs or high elfs. But lives among mankind in the same way a clanless dwarf would.
While quest canon may differ, generally there is no such thing as "an imperial elf". There are ambassadors and there is an elven quarter in Marienburg and some Eonir sometimes need something in the human lands, but they all are very much still part of their factions. Only example of a "clanless" elf that comes to mind is Asarnil.
 
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Can you imagine if we didn't have windsight and weren't as good at recognizing magical loot?

We'd walk out with entire cartfulls of random shiny rock necklaces.
We, the players, would not take the chance on Mathilde being scammed in an open market that is run by people who... probably aren't that fond of regulatory bodies coming in with things like "false advertising is bad".

So we'd walk out not having bothered trying to get some magical knick-knacks to take home with us in the first place.
 
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We talk about Karag Dum being "in the chaos wastes" but as BoneyM has mentioned before, that's kind of a slippery concept where there are people who would say the entire Empire is in the Chaos Wastes.

To me something more definitional is, "Is Karag Dum's location a place where daemons can remain manifested indefinitely in reality?" And I think... we don't quite know that for sure, do we? Hardly anybody from the Empire goes this far north to map the effects. Recall can Horstmann telling us how the Light College has dozens of experiments waiting to be performed because they can never get anyone into even kurgan territory to try them. I don't think anyone has a solid boundary line of, "daemons can persist indefinitely on this side but not on that side".

If Karag Dum isn't a place where daemons can hang around in reality indefinitely, it might be able to continue standing. If daemons can play around there as much as they want, I have a hard time seeing how it stands.
 
I believe that Kislev spellcasters may have felt it, while some Colleges (particularly Gold as the most "sciency" and White as the most anti-Chaos) possibly has some devices that could have registered that (much like seismometer can register a distant earthquake).


Without Windsight we couldn't be a wizard and I don't see us visiting Uzkulak in that case. I believe that even with a basic Windsight we would be able to distinguish between a Powerstone and a polished rock, although some higher-quality forgeries could have probably fooled us.


While quest canon may differ, generally there is no such thing as "an imperial elf".
Their is that one elf who runs a Inn in middenheim. May not be naming the right city here. But they do exist, even if very rare.
 
To me something more definitional is, "Is Karag Dum's location a place where daemons can remain manifested indefinitely in reality?" And I think... we don't quite know that for sure, do we?

Indeed we don't. Our best guess on the conditions was made here. It's not a guess based on nothing at least, but it is a guess.

It's supposed to be worse further north, but Kurgan land stretches all the way up to the Karag so I think logically it can't be any worse than Mordheim. I suppose it makes sense that it couldn't be too disrupted until it's nearer the pole, there's supposed to be Norscan tribes living as far north as the far side of the Frozen Sea."
 
We, the players, would not take the chance on Mathilde being scammed in an open market that is run by people who... probably aren't that fond of regulatory bodies coming in with things like "false advertising is bad".

So we'd walk out not having bothered trying to get some magical knick-knacks to take home with us in the first place.
I actually wouldn't be surprised if the Chaos Dwarves had an extra sales tax on "wrongfully described goods", just to make sure they earn their proper share from scammers.
 
Question for Boney, this is mostly for my curiosity. Has a imperial elf ever attend the magic colleges as a student?

What I mean by Imperial elf is one who is not part of the wood elfs or high elfs. But lives among mankind in the same way a clanless dwarf would.

I wouldn't say that there's absolutely never been an 'Imperial Elf', but there's no explicit mention of them in canon that I've come across so they'd have to be extremely rare, much more so than Imperial Dwarves. The closest there's been to Elves attending Imperial magical institutions is High Elves from Sith Rionnasc doing guest lectures at Baron Henryk's, and in the canonical future there's an Eonir encampment in the Amber Hills.
 
We talk about Karag Dum being "in the chaos wastes" but as BoneyM has mentioned before, that's kind of a slippery concept where there are people who would say the entire Empire is in the Chaos Wastes.

To me something more definitional is, "Is Karag Dum's location a place where daemons can remain manifested indefinitely in reality?" And I think... we don't quite know that for sure, do we? Hardly anybody from the Empire goes this far north to map the effects. Recall can Horstmann telling us how the Light College has dozens of experiments waiting to be performed because they can never get anyone into even kurgan territory to try them. I don't think anyone has a solid boundary line of, "daemons can persist indefinitely on this side but not on that side".

If Karag Dum isn't a place where daemons can hang around in reality indefinitely, it might be able to continue standing. If daemons can play around there as much as they want, I have a hard time seeing how it stands.
There is an in between of close enough that demons can manage a quick march there before they dispell.
 
The secrets in the Liber Mortis are not common knowledge but well...

Vlad was there every step of the way. He is the cowriter of the Liber Mortis, wrote the conclusion and everything.

Went on to found an entire Vampire Bloodline, which he taught Necromancy to.
Even if the full text is lost to many of them, they cannot be that secret.
And while the first vampire war was terrifying, He felt the need to use vampires and human auxiliaries to pad out his troops.

He still lost a lot of battles and even the full war in the end.

Mathilde hyped up how with those secrets she would become an unstoppably powerful necromancer if she tried. And that might well be true.
But working with Dhar is hard, and it is unstable. It often blows up in your face. There is a lot of room between safer than mainlining pure Dhar, and actually safe.
Going from the theoretical to the practical here is likely a significant hurdle.

If you assume all the strengths are open to anyone, and all the drawbacks are because Van Hal wasn't a very good mage then it is an unstoppable doom weapon.

Mahilde while reading through it regularly alternates by mentioning how little talent Van Hal has, and how they are the innermost thoughts of a genius.
Vlad Von Carstein took one look at his work, and said if he couldn't do it, testing more humans was pointless.

Vlad knew Nagash personally.

Having access to both does not make you the next Frederick Van Hal.
 
Went on to found an entire Vampire Bloodline, which he taught Necromancy to.
Even if the full text is lost to many of them, they cannot be that secret.

This is an assumption I've seen made a few times that doesn't seem like a given to me. Pretty much every named Vampire character seems like exactly the sort to only teach part of what they know to their disciples so that they'd have some trump cards remaining if/when said disciples turn on them.
 
Ok! Mostly caught up again. I basically think the 1st/2nd secret stuff is a rehash, the big reasons we have for and against the purchases are OOC, and it was a better choice than I figured to come here.

IC, the debate I see Mathilde having is price vs leaving these things in the hands of the highest chaos bidder. And price isn't really a concern.

Also, given how much Borek spent of the purse he brought? I'm wondering how much actual money K-a-K and Zuftbar even fronted.

So! Things I found interesting in the last little bit of discussion:

Yah I to feel we should visit the slave hall just for the possiblity to buy/save some VIP and if their not any we can leave this horrid place

Dislike prioritizing VIPs, would prefer to save no one than something purely because of their status and our opportunism.

There isn't an elf-specific course on the College curriculum; we could hire a tutor (I bet the Chancellor of the Seal can put us in contact with whoever trains his people in Elf diplomacy), but that lands us back in the problem of "maybe a good teacher will be available, maybe one won't."

Honestly, touching base with the chancellor of the seal before we head to the elves is probable a wonderful idea, both for our own diplomacy and so we know what the Empire's current issues/asks from Ulthan are, so we can support them.

If we had those firmly in mind, I'd be more enthusiastic about all these proposals to learn Arcane Khazalid and do other actions that might boost her enchantment skill. Without a good picture in mind, though, it feels like a solution in search of a problem. What are the big problems that Mathilde-as-enchanter can solve?

Absolutely the Waystones. The story logic points there: it's the nexus of the elves, King Belegar and Thorgrim, Karak Vlad, Karak Dum, Panoramia- and Mathilde is the one person with all the keys.

This Ulriczeit will be the 10 year anniversary of Abelhelm van Hal's death and we should something to commemorate him.

People have previously brought up the idea of teaming up with Roswita and writing a biography about his life together, and I really like this.

I like that! "The Hunter Count: Life and Legacy of Ableheim Van Hal" or something similar. Get testimonials from the rest of the council, finally find out exactly what he did to get the runefang, bond more with Roswita. (Maybe see about smoothing things over between her and Anton, as we like both of them now?)

There is no god doing the heavy lifting in runecraft which theoretically means you could change the source of power from the Glittering Realm to the warp and reap the benefits.

Interestingly enough this ties into an idea I had thinking about how runes work. So- the glittering realms used to be part of the warp, were accessible to the ancestor gods, contained the secrets of making runes, and were separated from the warp. Also, most runes work by drawing in ambient magics to power low-level ambient effects, or store and release in bursts- except for the great works of the ancestors, which work by getting power from the runic array in K-a-K the Waystones direct magic too. But the magic flows one way: to the array. If there were flows leading from the array to, say, the Karak-runes of Valya, it would be visible. So the theory is that the central array sends power to the glittering realm, and the ancestor-works draw directly from there. Lesser runes do this as well, in a self-contained manner- the rune that sends power is also the rune that draws power out.

But since we know that the glittering realm is now a part of Mallus and not the warp (per Gazul lore) then it would be affected by the ambient levels of magic in Mallus. Originally it would have drawn power from being part of the warp, then from a world awash with power during the great war. It'd only be after the great vortex that the works of the ancestors couldn't maintain themselves on the ambient magic levels and the waystone work-around would ultimately be to saturate the glittering realms with magic as if they were still party of the warp.

Runes, then, are tiny, limited portals between places within Mallus, opened by a specific sequence of chisel cuts with magically resonant materials filling them, that allow local magic to leak into the glittering realm and pull processed magic back for controlled effects.

Runes get charged off absorbing the winds anyway,

Kinda? Idk saying it like this is like saying plants live off the sun. It doesn't tell us how they do it.

I have to admit i really dont. We are already absurdly action poor. Were this like rhunrikki strollar and 5-7 turns meant we can discharge our apprentice i might be more willing but going down to 3 personal actions a turn sounds terrible.

On top of that most of the things we want to pass on should go further 5han just our personal apprentice. So im not at all keen on basically crippling our action economy to do interesting things so we can read about a magical novice getting taught.

I am much more interested in the character development and stories and slice of life that an apprentice would bring, so I'm in favor. I think it's ok for Mathilde to have smaller joys and ambitions, as a character, to offset what we end up doing.

Any action spent on learning Arcane Khazalid would be better spent on tongs or vitae.

Nah. I'm kinda into Arcane Khalazid now that we've been declared a dwarf: saying 'ok, please teach me how to read all of the runes' send like an ask we could make without treading on the secrets of crafting them. Vitae I think we've hit a point of having a key without a lock, and tongs I see as a slower, lower-power, gimmicky form of enchanting.

The fact that Karag Dum knows about the Waystones sending

Yes this we need Belegar to talk to people who know these secrets ASAP.

It's also possible that this is a problem that is solvable if you just -- hah, "just" -- got Dwarfs and Elves to start working together again. In which case the solution is not to spread secrets and knowledge amongst humanity. It is to achieve diplomatic or intrigue victory or coups of some sort and get Elf-Dwarf cooperation. (... Argh. Just realized that the Eonir thing may qualify as just that. o_O I think I'd prefer to get Wizards to build up Dwarf Rep in Karak Eight Peaks; simpler that way. :V We have no idea about the culture and aims of the Eonir. Whereas we have tons of familiarity with the people of the Empire and the Karaz Ankor. Even if we don't always know the specifics or the high-level goals and needs of the provinces and nations and Holds.)

I think getting a grouping of the elves inside the empire and the dwarves integrating with it is more practical and likely than reconciliation with the phoenix crown. Plus there's a mutual defense geographic logic to it, and they can all secure eachother's supply lines. I would really like to try and leverage the Eoinir/Asari political split into a renewed human/elf/dwarf research and development effort.

Something that hasn't already been replaced? Because there's basically no way the Karak Drazh orcs and the Skaven haven't replaced everything we killed. If you want to point at actual achievements of ours then point at the part where we stole all that Skaven tech and other stuff that makes Skaven easier to fight for when the Empire inevitably has to do so.

I mean, even skaven and orcs are limited by available calories and energy. We did not return either of their losses to them for recycling, so locally they will be limited as they scrounge for food to expand thier ecosystems.

Look, there are only so many ways to increase the thread's smol magic girl factor. Making babies was an active topic of discussion, and non-Dhar roads to immortality wasn't.

I support getting an apprentice. They can write papers.

Omg yes smol magical girl. Can you imagine the 'family' she'd have running around? Literally all of the ducklings as older siblings, Uncles Kragg and Belegar, wolf and halflings and the whole Karak for friends and playing games, heck I bet Soizic and Francesco and Oswald all get roped in by her at some point.
 
This is an assumption I've seen made a few times that doesn't seem like a given to me. Pretty much every named Vampire character seems like exactly the sort to only teach part of what they know to their disciples so that they'd have some trump cards remaining if/when said disciples turn on them.
I guess the vampires have lose more knowledge then the dwarfs in general. Like many orders of magnitude faster.
 
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Vampire knowledge... Yeah, vampires don't have a unified body of knowledge to begin with. Too distrustful, and immortal enough that most of them would never see the point in planning for their permanent destruction.

It is more accurate to say that each vampire has their own personal body of knowledge which they only share of when it is convenient, and those range from Neferata's Big Ol' Stash Of Lore to the nothing your average disposable fledgeling is told before they are sent to do whatever task they were meant for.

Of course any individual vampire who isn't an idiot, or unlucky enough to end up permanently locked down early on, should be capable of some level of independent research, but that's a lot of reinventing the wheel going on. Necrarchs in particular are the most likely to actually succeed at this to a substantial degree, whereas other vampires will have to steal the knowledge somehow if they don't want to spend centuries on the problem.
 
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The 1st Secret of Dhar really makes sense as a threat due to its ability to scale up otherwise two-bit dhar users as threats.

Like, let us say some beginner necromancer has the ability to rise up 100 skeletons a day. Great! Too bad the spells will decay in a day or two because dhar is corrosive, so he is limited to at most 200 undead.

He marches to the nearest hamlet, razes it, and cotinues to the nearest city and causes some damage before the city guards, any merchant/caravan guards, and the local militia beat them. Bad, certainly, but not something that has the local Elector Count do more than maybe prop up the local patrols while the witch hunters start riding in.

Then said necromancer learns the 1st Secret of Dhar.
Suddenly, his spells binding the skeletons do not decay and corrode within a day or two, but rather a month. This means that same necromancer can now raise an army of up to 30 000 undead. Where he used to be a threat to isolated cities, now he can take on an actual substantial army and have an expectation of outright winning.

Now, I do not know if these numbers are in any way correct, but that's how I visualize the threat the Secret represents: You don't need decades or centuries of experience, just basic necromantic spells and the Secret, to become a near instant threat on a provincial level simply because you don't need to spend anywhere near as much time on recasting or maintaining those spells.

And this is why you don't share the Secret just willy-nilly to any necromancer apprentices you might take. Because powerful though you may become, the list of beings actually capable of scoffing at ten thousand undead suddenly looking to turn them into a pincushion is a list not quite that long in the end. And we all know Dhar-users are the bastions of sanity and with complete lack of paranoia anyway....
 
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