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So you can counter spell an army by stabbing a zombie? I think you don't understand what I am proposing.
I'm not sure what your point is, no. Any magic sword can kill a zombie pretty well?

It kinda does. The First and Second Secrets are only part of what makes people who read the Liber Mortis an existential threat to the Empire. The other is that it contains a list of every necromantic spell ever, as well as how to cast them. And the cherry on top of that it contains a how-to guide on efficiently using an undead legion on the strategic level.

The First Secret can easily be understood by observing a necromancer that uses it. Anyone who has ever faced a sufficiently knowledgeable Vampire / Necromancer Lord should know about it. I would not be surprised if a large part of the LMs in the Colleges already do know about it, because they are the people you go to in order to counterspell people like that. The Likes of Kemmler, or Hellnicht. Just find a sufficiently isolated Necrarch, dust him and claim you saw him use the First Secret, intuited it from him, thought long and hard about the weaknesses of this style of casting Necromany and then proceeded to figure out the Second Secret from that.
You are mistaken - almost* no one knows the First Secret. Every necromancer knowing about it would probably be an extinction event. And using the Second Secret involves manipulating Dhar, which is forbidden in and of itself.

*Possibly no one but Mathilde, right now.
 
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Do we have any reason to think that smoke and mirrors might have a longer range in the shadow realm? Not sure of the properties of the place.
 
Oh. I suppose my response is "no, that's not possible."
Except the enchanted weapons that already does stuff like that in WHF. Or the time and army of Zombies were killed by second secret. I am proposing enchanting second secret to a blade to create an army killer. IF you can do it with a spell you can do it with enchantment.
 
You are mistaken - almost no one knows the First Secret. Every necromancer knowing about it would probably be an extinction event. And using the Second Secret involves manipulating Dhar, which is forbidden in and of itself.

Pretty sure you are mistaken here. Of course most Necromancers are the likes of the late Countess Von Carstein or even pettier spellslingers, but any Necromancer that can trace their teachings back to Nagash, his books, the Liber Mortis (which still has a bunch of less complete copies running around) or one of Nagashs personal students almost certainly knows the Secrets.

And there are plenty of such Necromancers in the world, even just counting the named ones. Just going by the Vampires: Neferata and her most favoured children almost certainly, Wsoran and his most ancient children, including Melchior and Zacharias the Everliving, Vlad and Mannfred von Carstein. Probably a bunch more Von Carsteins considering that Konrad von Carstein maintained an army big enough to threaten the Empire in the absence of the former two, and he certainly didn't know any Necromancy himself.

Heck, Alkharad probably knew the First Secret, if he seriously intended to animate all the Beast carcasses he had standing around in Teufelsheim at the first sign of attack he'd probably need it.

Any Necromancer that was ever powerful enough to threaten an entire province probably knows the First Secret. This includes the mentioned Dieter Helsnicht and Heinrich Kemmler at the very least, and I doubt that they were the only ones to ever show up, generic Master Necromancers on the tabletop can cast at least as well as them.

Arkhan the Black and anyone he taught in the thousands of years he's been around, so probably a bunch of Arabians we've never heard of.
 
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Except the enchanted weapons that already does stuff like that in WHF. Or the time and army of Zombies were killed by second secret. I am proposing enchanting second secret to a blade to create an army killer. IF you can do it with a spell you can do it with enchantment.

Even if other Wizards might not be able to divine the exact details of what it's doing, it would still be plainly obvious that it's doing something with Dhar, which puts it right back in Abominable Act territory.
 
Except the enchanted weapons that already does stuff like that in WHF. Or the time and army of Zombies were killed by second secret. I am proposing enchanting second secret to a blade to create an army killer. IF you can do it with a spell you can do it with enchantment.

IIRC it's not really a spell, more of a way of manipulating Dhar to implode itself in a chain reaction.
 
Except the enchanted weapons that already does stuff like that in WHF. Or the time and army of Zombies were killed by second secret. I am proposing enchanting second secret to a blade to create an army killer. IF you can do it with a spell you can do it with enchantment.
The Second Secret isn't a spell, it's a method of manipulating Dhar. You can't put it in an enchantment without a Daemon to manage it.
 
Except the enchanted weapons that already does stuff like that in WHF. Or the time and army of Zombies were killed by second secret. I am proposing enchanting second secret to a blade to create an army killer. IF you can do it with a spell you can do it with enchantment.
With our current knowledge it would have to be a Dhar enchantment - the finesse to use the second secret would be hard to enchant even then, but might be possible, but any attempt to enchant an Ulgu implement that could control Dhar finely enough to use the second secret is far beyond our skills if it's even possible at all.
 
You can't put it in an enchantment without a Daemon to manage it.
You are quick to declare it impossible. But you are wrong.

IIRC it's not really a spell, more of a way of manipulating Dhar to implode itself in a chain reaction.
Codify it. Mechanism is clear already.

With our current knowledge it would have to be a Dhar enchantment - the finesse to use the second secret would be hard to enchant even then, but might be possible, but any attempt to enchant an Ulgu implement that could control Dhar finely enough to use the second secret is far beyond our skills if it's even possible at all.
I am not arguing that we should do it. Just that it should be possible.
 
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[ ] [TOWER] Smoke and Mirrors
Build a tower to enable longer-range teleportation. Will require an action to set up, exact implementation will be determined by rolls and choices with that action.

Been thinking about this some more. Similar to how Burning Shadows became a Loremaster project all on its own, this seems like it could be a similar Mega-Project. We don't really know what "longer-range teleportation" actually entails, but suppose that (maybe with a tower at each end) it could reach from... I don't know, Karak Vlag to Karag Dum???

Just say for a moment that Karag Dum is holding. Even the ability to transport highly limited quantities of people or goods there (and back with a tower at the Karag Dum end?) could be a real game-changer. If nothing else, being able to teleport something as small as a letter would ensure lines of communication remain open. Teleportation-based trade is never going to replace the oxcart, but you know what? Being able to transport one person-mass to Karag Dum a day every day for 185 years would be probably be competitive with mounting an expedition of steam tanks there once every 185 years.

Imagine a tower at every karak. (Yes, I know convincing the king of each karak to let her build the damn thing would be a huge stretch in itself, but it's conceivable.) Again, mail service alone would be pretty incredible.

This is the type of mega-enchanting project that would be worthwhile.
 
Drat. Probably not worth getting into Dhar use for a maybe.
"If this line of research proves fruitful, it would revolutionize warfare against one of the Empire's deadliest foes, possibly rendering the very art of Nagash to be useless on a larger scale. Unfortunately, doing so is against the rules so we better drop it."

*sigh* As expected, people are too afraid of Dhar to see what good we could bring with it. Is it really any wonder it took this long for Eastern Stirland to be reclaimed?
 
We don't really know what "longer-range teleportation" actually entails, but suppose that (maybe with a tower at each end) it could reach from... I don't know, Karak Vlag to Karag Dum???
I wonder if some advantage could be taken of the Waystone link to achieve such a thing?

Probably not without unreasonable risks to the waystones.
 
"If this line of research proves fruitful, it would revolutionize warfare against one of the Empire's deadliest foes, possibly rendering the very art of Nagash to be useless on a larger scale. Unfortunately, doing so is against the rules so we better drop it."

*sigh* As expected, people are too afraid of Dhar to see what good we could bring with it. Is it really any wonder it took this long for Eastern Stirland to be reclaimed?
Manipulating Dhar would do psychological damage to Mathilde. I do not want her to suffer that. (Partially because of the mindset needed to work with Dhar, partially because of the damage due to breaking the oaths she has made part of the foundation of her self-image.)

You are quick to declare it impossible. But you are wrong.


Codify it. Mechanism is clear already.


I am not arguing that we should do it. Just that it should be possible.
Boney has stated, very clearly, that use of the Second Secret requires manipulation of Dhar, which is an Abominable Act. Please stop arguing a subject that we already have WoG on.
 
I am not arguing that we should do it. Just that it should be possible.
I wasn't arguing that we shouldn't do it - but if we do do it we don't want to hand it to the Empire. Dawi have access to true dhar protections, and if the enchantment works there's no reason they couldn't be the ones to wield the Deathcutter Axe as and when a threat arrives that requires it.

If we advance in knowledge of Dhar and Enchantment sufficiently to know we can do it I'd support doing it - but I don't support researching Dhar on the off-chance it might be possible.
 
Codify it. Mechanism is clear already.

I can see how it'd theoretically work; Ulgu enchantment designed to break into Dhar which then triggers an implosion of itself and anything nearby, causing a chain reaction of the Second Secret. The problem is that you'd need to design an enchantment that creates Dhar intentionally (already breaching Article 7), have it not trigger immediately, and then cascade into a Second Secret implosion reliably instead of just corroding whatever it's on and the person holding it. Preferably without blasting the user with enough magic radiation to kill them.

The amount of testing required would be immense and would require a lot of familiarity with Dhar.
 
Any one know where that grey wizard document is the one that basically does what ever you need it to be?

Why yes, here the proof that mathilde descends from Thungni.
If you are talking about the Scroll of the Fifth Lore then RoS says that it was last seen in Marienburg (page 207)

I gave a perfectly clear reason for why it's impossible. Do you have a counterpoint beyond "you are wrong"? Recall that counterspelling in general is not something that can be put into an enchantment.
But Dispel Scrolls are exactly that - counterspell in a can.
 
Our first task is I think is to judge which runesmith would be more likely to work with elves at all. Trying to get Kragg is I think a bad idea, while his high opinion of Mathilde might extend to actually physically going, it would be like trying to draw teeth to get anything useful out of him. His oppinion of elves vis a vis Bok is instructive here. Thorek is I think our best bet, if he is willing to pour Daemon blood on his anvil odds are he's willing to at least talk to elves with the bare minimum of good will.

Honestly it would be better to try to get Thorek to do it than Kragg even if Kragg were likely to be willing, because Kragg will never spread any of the knowledge on his side and Thorek is nominally "too" willing to spread his knowledge.
 
This is the type of mega-enchanting project that would be worthwhile.
If we find Karg Dum still holding out, I would totally be up for this. Setting something up at every single Karak might be a bit much, but the outskirts areas that are really hard to reach, or keep reliable communication with? Definitely worth the effort.
 
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