Also a bit apropos of nothing but...
While still being totally vulnerable to it herself. And only somewhat capable of acknowledging or realizing internal weaknesses or assumptions she made.
The sort of person that knows all about the various debate/conversational Fallacies, and can somewhat inexpertly use them against people, and sometimes scans their own mind for arguments or data they might have come to believe fallaciously... ... and is thus fully convinced that because of that, they are immune to fallacies and simple tricks themselves. Because they can see them all coming. They're wise to all the tricks! ((Okay no, Mathilde isn't fully convinced she's infallible, sure. But... ... yeah. She's got a mix of paranoia, arrogance, suspicion, pride, etc. And a desire to /appear/ mysterious and more skilled or knowledgeable than others.))
Lady, just because you are able to notice the blunt and immediate usage of 3 or 4 instances of "stone is a blahblahblah" when it's staring you in the face and when you already have reason to be suspicious, does not mean that you are so easily able to identify longer-term beliefs and contradictions to hold.
Especially when, as one poster put it, you are totally the sort of person to go from "The identity of the Grey College Patriarch is a secret" to "Of course everybody knows who it is. And he has an open door policy." without passing the intermediate and without thinking to yourself "Wait, how the fuck did I now know this?"
Because, see, I'm half-convinced that the real real reason Mathilde did not know is because... because she's a social recluse or idiot or something, I don't know. Her Diplomacy was not the best lol. I like the thought that potentially Algard's name could have been learned just from the rumor mill or socializing in the College... but Mathilde failed to learn it that way, because she's not great at socializing. And also, that Algard's name, the Grey Patriarch's position, might have been learnable just by taking the right Elective History Class... but Mathilde never took that class.
So instead, Mathilde smugs to/at herself even twice removed. She makes Algard's identity about trust and need-to-know and secret agent bullshit. And she does not acknowledge to herself, the obvious conclusion of "Ah, so, you just... weren't important or trusted enough to be told it, huh."
But she also avoids-thinking-about-it on a deeper level. In that she chooses to view it as a matter of trust and secrecy. Rather than something that might have had a solution as mundane as "Be more conscious of what's going on in the College hierarchy, befriend your teachers better, befriend your colleagues better, and maybe pick the right history class or just befriend the right history/politics teachers." (But Mathilde skipped out from all the optional diplomacy classes, so.) It's literally like that joke about paranoid people; about how "It must be a nice ego boost to be paranoid; after all, if you think people are out to get you, that means you think that you matter."
On the other hand, maybe she's moderately self-aware of that. And just prefers to make jokes and humorous exaggerations or comments/conclusions even in the depths of her own head. "Aha, yes of course I know this only because I am trusted. And that therefore when I did not know this, it was because I was not trusted enough. Yes. That is the only reason, definitely.
"
Because of that good old adage: The reward for work well done... is more work.
Game-wise, it also works out, too. Because it ensures that there is an "after" after the particular story-arc comes to an end. There's more stuff to be done. The consequences of your actions, beget more actions and consequences.
... Also, it strains the importance of following up on, and winning the peace. "You did a bighuge thing. Now, don't fuck up the landing."
Remember: that Thorgrim's deeds, too, were legend and important and sent waves and such. ... And yet. And yet, reality was cruel. It did not allow for the tender revealed hope to stick the landing. Victory tasted like ashes. Hell, we see bits of this even with post-Drakenhof, or when Mathilde sends to Karaz-a-Karak via gyrocopter letter and gets a 'Die well' response and feels like shit because despite the fact that she just conquered 5 Karaks for Belegar, she feels like she Fucked Up in one particular yet important aspect. And also see it in how Mathilde seeds Belegar weighed down after the reclamation concludes. It's a whole pattern, in history and life in Warhammer Fantasy. And even (in small ways) in-quest too.
Seriously. If we rediscover secrets, or relearn old knowledge and make realizations about old things due to ways of looking at things that Dwarfs didn't have access to before, then...
... We can just give it right back to the Dwarfs.
We can give that old knowledge, rediscovered/realized by us due to us being a Wizard who is friendly with Dwarfs and in deep with their secrets, back to them and let them start handling it.
(It might, in fact, be better than spreading that knowledge amongst humans. ... In fact, it almost certainly is. Recall Algard's own reaction to learning even a little bit about Waystones: 'on the one hand I'm furious about now knowing, on the other hand I'm terrified at the thought of what any apprentice might get up to with that knowledge.')
Because. Here's the thing. The Dwarfs might lack that ancient knowledge now. But, if we returned it to them, then they can do the things again.
And, frankly, if the Dwarfs find that they need a Wizard for some stuff?
Then they can make their own decision/judgment to hire or befriend or reveal to a friendly Empire Wizard a few slow secrets or hire them for things the Wizard can do that the Dwarfs can't but which don't reveal secrets.
In other words...
Don't conclude that this is something that must be known by humans (and humans all over the Old World, fucking everywhere) in order for it to save the world.
The matter could be left in the hands of Dwarfs and Elfs.
... Hell. How do we know that the Jade Order don't know a surprising amount of this already, too? Whether from ancient knowledge, and from some add-ons from Teclis too? For all we know, the Jade Order knows some of this stuff, and yet is deciding to keep it secret anyway. And maybe they're doing that for a damn good reason.
So what I'm advocating is...
Give the Dwarfs the tools and knowledge and ability to start tackling the problems. And, provide them with the ability to call in Empire Wizards if they feel they need to.
Let them -- the Dwarfs, I mean -- be the ones to make those judgement calls.
And meanwhile, humans and Wizards and Wizard Orders can try to slowly gain reputation and trust and reliability with the Dwarfs, and be relied upon them more.
(Or you can set up your own organization or brotherhood or secret society, in Karak Eight Peaks, that works alongside Runesmiths and Dwarf Kings. And that helps out the Karaz Ankor and Empire both, by doing so. And also by keeping a trove of knowledge, to make it harder for the knowledge to be lost.)
I find this to be a more reliable way than to decide that the secrets must be spread far and wide in order for it to work.
It's also possible that this is a problem that is solvable if you just -- hah, "just" -- got Dwarfs and Elves to start working together again. In which case the solution is not to spread secrets and knowledge amongst humanity. It is to achieve diplomatic or intrigue victory or coups of some sort and get Elf-Dwarf cooperation. (... Argh. Just realized that the Eonir thing may qualify as just that. I think I'd prefer to get Wizards to build up Dwarf Rep in Karak Eight Peaks; simpler that way. We have no idea about the culture and aims of the Eonir. Whereas we have tons of familiarity with the people of the Empire and the Karaz Ankor. Even if we don't always know the specifics or the high-level goals and needs of the provinces and nations and Holds.)
But anyway.
What I'm saying is, sometimes the best way to solve a person's problem is to make them capable of solving the problem themselves. And making them capable of trusting enough to call another person for help if/when they need it.
Rather than assuming that you (this being the general "you" of "humans in the Old World") are the ones that can be ultimately responsible or can solve all the problems.
... Sometimes you can solve problems just by being a friend/ally and being relied upon and able to provide help when the Dwarf asks. By becoming reliable enough that Dwarfs can count on your aid. Rather than deciding that you can take away some of their duties and do them yourself, and convince yourself that this is for your own good and you're just being responsible and reasonable and rational.
Funny thought. I'm willing to bet that Mathilde is exactly the sort of person to go "Aha, I know how people can have their minds made up by being presented with a piece of information, and then shortly thereafter have a conversation with a different person which touches upon that topic but reveals or frames it in a different way... and that that way, people will make up their mind about a thing, because they have seen 'proof' that proves or disproves a thing they had recently heard about... This is the Grey College, of course I know all about such psychological things."
While still being totally vulnerable to it herself. And only somewhat capable of acknowledging or realizing internal weaknesses or assumptions she made.
The sort of person that knows all about the various debate/conversational Fallacies, and can somewhat inexpertly use them against people, and sometimes scans their own mind for arguments or data they might have come to believe fallaciously... ... and is thus fully convinced that because of that, they are immune to fallacies and simple tricks themselves. Because they can see them all coming. They're wise to all the tricks! ((Okay no, Mathilde isn't fully convinced she's infallible, sure. But... ... yeah. She's got a mix of paranoia, arrogance, suspicion, pride, etc. And a desire to /appear/ mysterious and more skilled or knowledgeable than others.))
Lady, just because you are able to notice the blunt and immediate usage of 3 or 4 instances of "stone is a blahblahblah" when it's staring you in the face and when you already have reason to be suspicious, does not mean that you are so easily able to identify longer-term beliefs and contradictions to hold.
Especially when, as one poster put it, you are totally the sort of person to go from "The identity of the Grey College Patriarch is a secret" to "Of course everybody knows who it is. And he has an open door policy." without passing the intermediate and without thinking to yourself "Wait, how the fuck did I now know this?"
Because, see, I'm half-convinced that the real real reason Mathilde did not know is because... because she's a social recluse or idiot or something, I don't know. Her Diplomacy was not the best lol. I like the thought that potentially Algard's name could have been learned just from the rumor mill or socializing in the College... but Mathilde failed to learn it that way, because she's not great at socializing. And also, that Algard's name, the Grey Patriarch's position, might have been learnable just by taking the right Elective History Class... but Mathilde never took that class.
So instead, Mathilde smugs to/at herself even twice removed. She makes Algard's identity about trust and need-to-know and secret agent bullshit. And she does not acknowledge to herself, the obvious conclusion of "Ah, so, you just... weren't important or trusted enough to be told it, huh.
"But she also avoids-thinking-about-it on a deeper level. In that she chooses to view it as a matter of trust and secrecy. Rather than something that might have had a solution as mundane as "Be more conscious of what's going on in the College hierarchy, befriend your teachers better, befriend your colleagues better, and maybe pick the right history class or just befriend the right history/politics teachers." (But Mathilde skipped out from all the optional diplomacy classes, so.) It's literally like that joke about paranoid people; about how "It must be a nice ego boost to be paranoid; after all, if you think people are out to get you, that means you think that you matter."
On the other hand, maybe she's moderately self-aware of that. And just prefers to make jokes and humorous exaggerations or comments/conclusions even in the depths of her own head. "Aha, yes of course I know this only because I am trusted.
And that therefore when I did not know this, it was because I was not trusted enough. Yes. That is the only reason, definitely."Yeah, it does make it seem more "real" doesn't it? Though it's not necessarily "cause more troubles" as it is... cause yet more stories and things to do.
Because of that good old adage: The reward for work well done... is more work.
Game-wise, it also works out, too. Because it ensures that there is an "after" after the particular story-arc comes to an end. There's more stuff to be done. The consequences of your actions, beget more actions and consequences.
... Also, it strains the importance of following up on, and winning the peace. "You did a bighuge thing. Now, don't fuck up the landing."
Remember: that Thorgrim's deeds, too, were legend and important and sent waves and such. ... And yet. And yet, reality was cruel. It did not allow for the tender revealed hope to stick the landing. Victory tasted like ashes. Hell, we see bits of this even with post-Drakenhof, or when Mathilde sends to Karaz-a-Karak via gyrocopter letter and gets a 'Die well' response and feels like shit because despite the fact that she just conquered 5 Karaks for Belegar, she feels like she Fucked Up in one particular yet important aspect. And also see it in how Mathilde seeds Belegar weighed down after the reclamation concludes. It's a whole pattern, in history and life in Warhammer Fantasy. And even (in small ways) in-quest too.
Or maybe we just teach it to the Elves and Dwarfs, and let them handle it.
Seriously. If we rediscover secrets, or relearn old knowledge and make realizations about old things due to ways of looking at things that Dwarfs didn't have access to before, then...
... We can just give it right back to the Dwarfs.
We can give that old knowledge, rediscovered/realized by us due to us being a Wizard who is friendly with Dwarfs and in deep with their secrets, back to them and let them start handling it.
(It might, in fact, be better than spreading that knowledge amongst humans. ... In fact, it almost certainly is. Recall Algard's own reaction to learning even a little bit about Waystones: 'on the one hand I'm furious about now knowing, on the other hand I'm terrified at the thought of what any apprentice might get up to with that knowledge.')
Because. Here's the thing. The Dwarfs might lack that ancient knowledge now. But, if we returned it to them, then they can do the things again.
And, frankly, if the Dwarfs find that they need a Wizard for some stuff?
Then they can make their own decision/judgment to hire or befriend or reveal to a friendly Empire Wizard a few slow secrets or hire them for things the Wizard can do that the Dwarfs can't but which don't reveal secrets.
In other words...
Don't conclude that this is something that must be known by humans (and humans all over the Old World, fucking everywhere) in order for it to save the world.
The matter could be left in the hands of Dwarfs and Elfs.
... Hell. How do we know that the Jade Order don't know a surprising amount of this already, too? Whether from ancient knowledge, and from some add-ons from Teclis too? For all we know, the Jade Order knows some of this stuff, and yet is deciding to keep it secret anyway. And maybe they're doing that for a damn good reason.
So what I'm advocating is...
Give the Dwarfs the tools and knowledge and ability to start tackling the problems. And, provide them with the ability to call in Empire Wizards if they feel they need to.
Let them -- the Dwarfs, I mean -- be the ones to make those judgement calls.
And meanwhile, humans and Wizards and Wizard Orders can try to slowly gain reputation and trust and reliability with the Dwarfs, and be relied upon them more.
(Or you can set up your own organization or brotherhood or secret society, in Karak Eight Peaks, that works alongside Runesmiths and Dwarf Kings. And that helps out the Karaz Ankor and Empire both, by doing so. And also by keeping a trove of knowledge, to make it harder for the knowledge to be lost.)
I find this to be a more reliable way than to decide that the secrets must be spread far and wide in order for it to work.
It's also possible that this is a problem that is solvable if you just -- hah, "just" -- got Dwarfs and Elves to start working together again. In which case the solution is not to spread secrets and knowledge amongst humanity. It is to achieve diplomatic or intrigue victory or coups of some sort and get Elf-Dwarf cooperation. (... Argh. Just realized that the Eonir thing may qualify as just that.
I think I'd prefer to get Wizards to build up Dwarf Rep in Karak Eight Peaks; simpler that way. We have no idea about the culture and aims of the Eonir. Whereas we have tons of familiarity with the people of the Empire and the Karaz Ankor. Even if we don't always know the specifics or the high-level goals and needs of the provinces and nations and Holds.)But anyway.
What I'm saying is, sometimes the best way to solve a person's problem is to make them capable of solving the problem themselves. And making them capable of trusting enough to call another person for help if/when they need it.
Rather than assuming that you (this being the general "you" of "humans in the Old World") are the ones that can be ultimately responsible or can solve all the problems.
... Sometimes you can solve problems just by being a friend/ally and being relied upon and able to provide help when the Dwarf asks. By becoming reliable enough that Dwarfs can count on your aid. Rather than deciding that you can take away some of their duties and do them yourself, and convince yourself that this is for your own good and you're just being responsible and reasonable and rational.
