Yeah this. I'm remaining neutral on Borek until we actually get to Dum and see what his reaction to what we find is.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
Not sure, guild secrets are open to sharing simply by people wanting to repay dwarf favor, and the recipient of the secret agreeing not to pass it on. See Mathilde's calling on dwarves to help make better saltpeter, better designs for the Stirland repeater, and, most clearly, her assessment that she'd probably be able to get the secret of dwarf gunpowder formulation out of them, but she'd be 'on the hook for it'.
I'd assume it'd cost more favor to open the secret to a group that isn't specifically owned by the one the favor is owed to, and even more favor to open the secret to a group that's so wide there isn't a serious expectation of being able to keep the secret hidden forever. But it sounds like the sort of thing that'd be possible to achieve with enough diplomacy/questing around.
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I actually wonder if this "refusal to talk with Barak Varr" is more complicated than Belegar knew about. I mean, supposedly Borek wouldn't talk to Varr because he found them too "weakened by dependence on trade", but does that really make sense given everything else we've seen from Borek? His reaction to an elf, a dragon, and human knights on monster mounts has been extremely open. His attitude seems to be that anything that helps him complete his mission is acceptable. I mean, even before Mathilde brought those guys in, Borek's entire plan hinged on Radical Untested Steam Wagon technology that was literally being redesigned up until the very last minute.
Nothing about that is in any way consistent with the "I'll use anything and anyone I have to" attitude that Borek has shown. Can you imagine him hanging around for 185 years and refusing to "treat" with Barak Varr because he thinks they're weakened by doing too much trading?
In one possible future of ThorgrimQuest
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
In a very optimistic future...
You have checked, triple-checked, and triple-checked again the Waystone connections between Karaz-a-Karak, Karak Vlag, and Karag Dum. So, too, has the stability of their defenses and defenders been deemed adequate... at least, as secure as any holds on the doorstep to Chaos can be. You know all too well how suddenly such might change. Still, for now the Throne of Power has a surplus of magic; just enough to reactivate one of the long-lost Great Works of the Ancestors. But which one?
[X] The Eyes of Grimnir: Reactivates the thousands of hidden monitor runes throughout Silver Pass. Allows the retaking of Silver Pass and the mountains east of Karaz-a-Karak, and greatly reinforces the defences of those mountains if they are under Dawi control. Also potentially allows the retaking of Karag Agilwutraz, gaining control of the eastern side of the mountain range and regaining access to one of the richest silver mines in the world.
[] The Third Axe of Grimnir: An axe carved out of a mountain and under the control of Karak Kadrin. Allows the annihilation of all enemies of the Dawi along Peak Pass. This would greatly secure Karak Kadrin, allowing their trade to flourish and some of their local forces to be re-allocated. While it holds, this would also severely blunt if not outright end any invasion from the Dark Lands.
[] The Gas-Forge of Morgrim: Enables the production of Hydrium, a gas that is lighter than hydrogen yet also non-flammable. In turn, this would allow for the recreation of the ancient airships that once dominated the skies. Each airship would not be cheap, but their designs are as venerable as any engineering project.
[] The Great Pumps of Morgrim: You won't activate this now. Instead, a massive flood-path will have to be carved. Once finished, the Varn Drazh lake can be drained, allowing access to the fallen star's massive Gromril deposits at the lake's bed. This will also give you the ability to redirect the flood waters along their original path, allowing the complete destruction of Stirland at a moment's notice. But what the humans don't know can't hurt them.
[] The Sally Port of Gazul: So many Dwarfen souls are lost each year far from the protection of Gazul's priests. It would be a boon to save them, even for a short time. Yet the spirits from the Sally Port are said to only care for the dead. What help would they give the living, if they would do so at all?
[] The Tectonic Shackle of Thungni: Calm Thunder Mountain's rage, enabling it to in theory be retaken from the Grobi and other monsters that inhabit it. The secrets of the Rune of Sorcery and the construction of the Anvils of Doom could possibly be reclaimed, yet at what cost?
[] Altdorf and The Colleges of Magic: While the twin debts owed to Loremaster Weber and the late Sir Wulfhart the Valliant have been repaid, it could be said there is a larger obligation to be seen to. It will be a long time before the Empire of Man fully harnesses its own Waystone network. In the interim, you could lease them the use of your excess power for a short period of 20 years, giving then a head start on creating their own shoddy mega-projects. You have no idea what they'd offer to repay you with, but the price you will charge will be very, very, very expensive.
A/N: Just a quick little what-if from Thorgrim!Quest, using the bits mentioned in this update and a few notes from the wiki. Hydrium is a reference to the Airborne novels by Kenneth Oppel. (Which I haven't read in, uh, a decade? Eh.)
Edit: This has been slightly revised. It's still an AU, but I've changed a couple small things to reflect new information.
You have checked, triple-checked, and triple-checked again the Waystone connections between Karaz-a-Karak, Karak Vlag, and Karag Dum. So, too, has the stability of their defenses and defenders been deemed adequate... at least, as secure as any holds on the doorstep to Chaos can be. You know all too well how suddenly such might change. Still, for now the Throne of Power has a surplus of magic; just enough to reactivate one of the long-lost Great Works of the Ancestors. But which one?
[X] The Eyes of Grimnir: Reactivates the thousands of hidden monitor runes throughout Silver Pass. Allows the retaking of Silver Pass and the mountains east of Karaz-a-Karak, and greatly reinforces the defences of those mountains if they are under Dawi control. Also potentially allows the retaking of Karag Agilwutraz, gaining control of the eastern side of the mountain range and regaining access to one of the richest silver mines in the world.
[] The Third Axe of Grimnir: An axe carved out of a mountain and under the control of Karak Kadrin. Allows the annihilation of all enemies of the Dawi along Peak Pass. This would greatly secure Karak Kadrin, allowing their trade to flourish and some of their local forces to be re-allocated. While it holds, this would also severely blunt if not outright end any invasion from the Dark Lands.
[] The Gas-Forge of Morgrim: Enables the production of Hydrium, a gas that is lighter than hydrogen yet also non-flammable. In turn, this would allow for the recreation of the ancient airships that once dominated the skies. Each airship would not be cheap, but their designs are as venerable as any engineering project.
[] The Great Pumps of Morgrim: You won't activate this now. Instead, a massive flood-path will have to be carved. Once finished, the Varn Drazh lake can be drained, allowing access to the fallen star's massive Gromril deposits at the lake's bed. This will also give you the ability to redirect the flood waters along their original path, allowing the complete destruction of Stirland at a moment's notice. But what the humans don't know can't hurt them.
[] The Sally Port of Gazul: So many Dwarfen souls are lost each year far from the protection of Gazul's priests. It would be a boon to save them, even for a short time. Yet the spirits from the Sally Port are said to only care for the dead. What help would they give the living, if they would do so at all?
[] The Tectonic Shackle of Thungni: Calm Thunder Mountain's rage, enabling it to in theory be retaken from the Grobi and other monsters that inhabit it. The secrets of the Rune of Sorcery and the construction of the Anvils of Doom could possibly be reclaimed, yet at what cost?
[] Altdorf and The Colleges of Magic: While the twin debts owed to Loremaster Weber and the late Sir Wulfhart the Valliant have been repaid, it could be said there is a larger obligation to be seen to. It will be a long time before the Empire of Man fully harnesses its own Waystone network. In the interim, you could lease them the use of your excess power for a short period of 20 years, giving then a head start on creating their own shoddy mega-projects. You have no idea what they'd offer to repay you with, but the price you will charge will be very, very, very expensive.
A/N: Just a quick little what-if from Thorgrim!Quest, using the bits mentioned in this update and a few notes from the wiki. Hydrium is a reference to the Airborne novels by Kenneth Oppel. (Which I haven't read in, uh, a decade? Eh.)
Edit: This has been slightly revised. It's still an AU, but I've changed a couple small things to reflect new information.
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Well, whether it was because their trading or some other reason it seems he never bothered to do the basic "Beggar lord travels the holds with hand outstretched for a venture." that seems to be the established tradition for this sort of thing. You can conjure other excuses besides trade for why he only bothered to visit three holds in two centuries but none I can think of particularly play well for him.
As for how to reconcile that with him accepting the Demigryphs and Dragon and such. I agree it is a departure so it's hard to say. My guess is it's part time wearing him down (He made that decision to only work with those three holds at the very beginning when his opinions on the worth of others was more solidified possibly, and perhaps inertia was a major reason he stuck to it rather than still holdings those beliefs just as strongly), part the fact he can't really refuse them anyway (If he tries they probably just boot him from expedition head and put someone else in charge) so might as well make the best of it, and part "PARTY TIME LADS, WE'RE ON OUR WAY!! You want to come as well? Then hop aboard!".
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
There is a big difference between not wanting to ask for and turning down help.
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- Location
- Aotearoa
Then, to be frank, I'd call it a waste of our time, to spend a Trancendental Boon we have to back up with actions running around, to get something of 'meh' value to me- as in, of no quest interest.
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You know, I wonder about that. It's weird and odd. What's actually the truth or reality behind that? I mean, maybe it's King Byrrnoth he has a problem with. Maybe coordinating with Sea Lord Aislinn in 2281 was unpopular... although, that's odd; "when the Karaz Ankor fought the Elves, Karag Dum fought Chaos. When the Karaz Ankor fought X, Karag Dum fought Chaos." Karag Dum might not care as much about Elves. Maybe it's Barak Varr that has a problem with him/with Karag Dum and snubbed him? Or... something, I don't know.
... Or maybe he only treats with Holds who have Runelords which did not spend time shit-talking Karag Dum?
Maybe he reasons that if the ancient Greatbeard Runelords of a given Hold took a certain position on Karag Dum, and then spent time post-Great War Against Chaos badmouthing Karag Dum, that it would be fruitless to seek help from their Holds. Because they'd be right there poisoning the well against him. Or maybe it's personal or political from back home; Borek is from the Royal Clan of Karag Dum after all, and his Elders and superiors spent a lot of time grumbling and swearing and bitching about particular Holds, and so Borek is essentially caught in a Catch-22 where he'd like to be able to be free to seek aid and support from wherever he could, but he can't both because of practical and cultural realities of the Holds themselves and also the practical and cultural realities of his own Hold and family too.
Either way, I hope our upcoming talk with Borek might be able to help clear that up.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I wouldn't think it's that- Thorek explicitly mentioned Karak Kadrin as an example of Dwarfs being turned against KD, so it must have had shit-talkers.
... Maybe he's focusing on the geographically closest Holds? God knows why you'd do something so baffling as that, but...
... Maybe he just really hates boats? And the sea?
Theory: he once called a Barak Varr ironclad a "boat" instead of a "ship" and was Grudged or almost-Grudged for it. (Boats, ships, what's the difference? How was he supposed to know it was important!!) Ever since, he's avoided Barak Varr in order to not piss them off more...
Well...
... Maybe he just really hates boats? And the sea?
Theory: he once called a Barak Varr ironclad a "boat" instead of a "ship" and was Grudged or almost-Grudged for it. (Boats, ships, what's the difference? How was he supposed to know it was important!!) Ever since, he's avoided Barak Varr in order to not piss them off more...
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
All Dwarfs hate the sea. Some of them just hate it so much they want to conquer it.
Chlof
Her Ladyship
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It could simply be that all he asked from them was the monitor design to adapt to the steam wagon and since that isn't really that obvious people assumed he didn't go to them?
Wait, I got it!
He once befriended Malakai Makaison. Or maybe took a ride on the Unsinkable, and was one of the few and only survivors.
...
Uh, no, that's it. That's the whole of it. And ever since, Barak Varr doesn't want to touch him with a ten foot pole.
Each Great Work has its own benefits and its own costs even risks or follow-up actions and questlines possible for them to take. Whether that be resuming production of airships, campaigning to clear out Karag Dron (that's Thunder Mountain, right?), guarding the souls of the dead, securing passages in two different areas and setting up for the ability to annihilate any enemies passing through one passage or setting up for the potential conquest of another hold... Or part gambling part indebting part repaying the humans with some kind of magical megaproject of their own.
All decisions and situations with many forereaching consequences and results.
... But for once, at least some of these challenges and questions are not "So which location would you prefer to get stabbed first?"
... Hm. The Eyes of Grimnir would allow for more forces to be sent out from Karaz-a-Karak, due to the increased security of it. On the other hand, this is focusing on things close at home... On the other other hand, it's focusing on things close at home so you can put more of your efforts in securing and helping out other Holds.
On the other hand, the Axe of Grimnir could be a very visible and obvious deed; it would let you openly and dramatically fucking annihilate enemies in there. People will know that shit just got real. But the Dwarfs, too, will see that. They'll see that something changed. For the better, and dramatically so.
Hm. Both of those options would help secure trade along the Empire-Barak Varr-Karak Eight Peaks canal somewhat, too.
As for the Colleges of Magic... who the heck knows what they would come up with. And it would be 'just' 20 years of energy. That's not too much time for a Dwarf...
He once befriended Malakai Makaison. Or maybe took a ride on the Unsinkable, and was one of the few and only survivors.
...
Uh, no, that's it. That's the whole of it. And ever since, Barak Varr doesn't want to touch him with a ten foot pole.
Cool stuff Derpmind.
Each Great Work has its own benefits and its own costs even risks or follow-up actions and questlines possible for them to take. Whether that be resuming production of airships, campaigning to clear out Karag Dron (that's Thunder Mountain, right?), guarding the souls of the dead, securing passages in two different areas and setting up for the ability to annihilate any enemies passing through one passage or setting up for the potential conquest of another hold... Or part gambling part indebting part repaying the humans with some kind of magical megaproject of their own.
All decisions and situations with many forereaching consequences and results.
... But for once, at least some of these challenges and questions are not "So which location would you prefer to get stabbed first?"
... Hm. The Eyes of Grimnir would allow for more forces to be sent out from Karaz-a-Karak, due to the increased security of it. On the other hand, this is focusing on things close at home... On the other other hand, it's focusing on things close at home so you can put more of your efforts in securing and helping out other Holds.
On the other hand, the Axe of Grimnir could be a very visible and obvious deed; it would let you openly and dramatically fucking annihilate enemies in there. People will know that shit just got real. But the Dwarfs, too, will see that. They'll see that something changed. For the better, and dramatically so.
Hm. Both of those options would help secure trade along the Empire-Barak Varr-Karak Eight Peaks canal somewhat, too.
As for the Colleges of Magic... who the heck knows what they would come up with. And it would be 'just' 20 years of energy. That's not too much time for a Dwarf...
For the usual late December reasons I'll be away from my computer for most of the next 48ish hours. Happy Mondstille, Keg End, King's Sleep, Hanil Khar, or your regional equivalent.
They're about the same longitude so there's no pressing reason for one or the other, so it could come down to whether Mathilde gets any information in the coming days to prioritize one or the other, and if all else fails, which one I feel like writing first.
Mathilde will figure it out.
That's up to his family. I won't go any deeper into it than that because jeez, 'what does a family do when the subject of their bereavement was socially obligated to commit ritual suicide but didn't, and then died anyway' is one of many Slayer-related headspaces I don't want to explore.
They're about the same longitude so there's no pressing reason for one or the other, so it could come down to whether Mathilde gets any information in the coming days to prioritize one or the other, and if all else fails, which one I feel like writing first.
Mathilde will figure it out.
That's up to his family. I won't go any deeper into it than that because jeez, 'what does a family do when the subject of their bereavement was socially obligated to commit ritual suicide but didn't, and then died anyway' is one of many Slayer-related headspaces I don't want to explore.
King Arthur
The Once and Future King
This, but only if instead of going straight for Gromil, you instead drain the lake and dig a hole from the inside of the lake into Karak Drazh, then refill the lake and drown the enemies in the lower portions of the hold.
This kills massive amounts of Grobi (maybe Skaven too if their also there), and makes for an easy invasion point, just drain the lake again and march an army through the hole, making the reclamation of the hold pretty darn easy.
Reclaiming Drazh would reactivate it's Waystone, pumping more energy into the network. To make holding it easier so it's not stolen for .... consider keeping the lower portions of the hold flooded.
Edit: Meantt Karak Varn.
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Same to you, Boney. May you enjoy much Trogg un Gorog.
That's... true. Although I assumed it must have been from Zhufbar. Maybe it was a Zhufbar-Varr collaboration?
... Or maybe the Steam-Wagons are the reason why he's not getting Barak Varr support; because they came from Zhufbar, and were a result of Zhufbar going "Look, Varr, I'll take your steamship ideas and make them better; putting them on land, where Dawi belong to be!" And then he was sort of stuck with Varr being in a snit after that, at what Zhufbar did.
You know... Another way to look at that "Gotri of the 6 Intrigue" thing could also mean that, uh... people who're aware of what Gotri is like, try not to share vital secrets or sensitive diplomatic matters with him? On account of him having the political sense of a College firebrand, and the subtlety to match.
... Eh, that's probably a little too uncharitable; he at least has the sense to close doors before talking about sensitive matters. Admittedly, said talk also resulted in at least one or two people being convinced that outright overthrowing or assassinating Borek might be on the menu, so maybe that's still not the best example...
Karak Drazh is unbelievably farther away from Zhufbar and the Black Lake. Got the Border Princes between them. And the Iron Rock and Thunder Mountain too.
Maybe you could flood the forest just outside Black Fire Pass instead? It's full of gribbles.
On the other hand, that would probably flood into or at least interfere with the Empire-Varr-K8P canal line to do so, so...
- Location
- Russia
You probably meant Karak Varn, one on Blackwater's coast, not Drazh next to K8P?
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Don't think that'd help much, most of Varn's issues are because it was flooded.
Occur while re-reading
And things would have happen that way for a while, a very long while, as the Dawi refortify their Hold while the whole world thinks that they are still lost.
But one day, you heard that the rune for water purification is waning, and to repair it would require stone and mold not found in your mountain.
So amongs the apprentices, you are chosen to venture out and gather the necessary matterial...
~ a Hold Dweller quest
It occurs to me that if they make a false cliffwall out of their main gate and camuflaged watchtower, the world might never know their hold rejoin the world.
And meanwhile secret group or small groups of dwarves can come to the nearnest settlement to trade and get their supply, while remaining incognito.
Their long war against chaos might trigger a turtle mentality.
In Ron Perlman voice:
And things would have happen that way for a while, a very long while, as the Dawi refortify their Hold while the whole world thinks that they are still lost.
But one day, you heard that the rune for water purification is waning, and to repair it would require stone and mold not found in your mountain.
So amongs the apprentices, you are chosen to venture out and gather the necessary matterial...
~ a Hold Dweller quest
It occurs to me that if they make a false cliffwall out of their main gate and camuflaged watchtower, the world might never know their hold rejoin the world.
And meanwhile secret group or small groups of dwarves can come to the nearnest settlement to trade and get their supply, while remaining incognito.
Their long war against chaos might trigger a turtle mentality.
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
I mean someone else's questing around.
The Idea with a boon is that you'd tell someone else to get on the task you want done, in this case, Belegar works to convince the engineer's guild of something.
I would agree with this, but would also go one step further and say the entire expedition has been taking negative repercussions.
Right now, evidence suggests what we find at Karag Duum might not even test him when we reach it.
The waystone is intact.
This whole expedition is likely to leave him vindicated. Survivors has gone from being the best case scenario for what we find there to the worst.
The new best case scenario is that Karag Duum is intact, that the majority of his people are still alive.
That they never fell to chaos.
There is likely to be damage, or some degree of cultural drift. But compared to the expectation everyone keeps telling him to assume they all died I don't think he will care.
Even if they have done a few things of questionable intent, great dwarven flaws that would get dwarven longbeards grumbling.
Like teaching Runes to people without the blood of Thungi
Or letting people have multiple professions rather than specialising.
Or innovating new technologies without a proper period to test them
Or dropping any pretence of guilds and handing secrets out to anyone that can work
Or given runic weapons to the Yusak to in exchange for fighting the other chaos tribes and allying with them.
Or they let in an uncorrupted human population into the hold to withstand the siege with them during the crusade.
It has held the last waystone this far north, one the size of a mountain.
His people have gone on swinging and holding the line for the forces of order.
And after all this time he's finally brought the cavalry he was sent out to fetch.
People are going to go Slayer over this, but it won't be Borek.
Reality is on his side.
On the flip side of this, my position on the omens being bad therefore come from the other direction.
This is the last waystone left in the full north.
Borek is the only person pushing for anyone to go back and defend it.
If this expedition fails, then Karag Duum continues to fight alone. Until one day, they lose.
And we find out how far south the Chaos Wastes expand without it.
King Arthur
The Once and Future King
Yep, that's the one, no idea how I got those mixed up.
NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'd like to note that the restriction of Runecraft to descendants of Thungni isn't just a cultural thing, it's literally impossible for someone who isn't descended from Thungni to create Runes no matter how knowledgeable they are the same way teaching spells to someone with no ability to manipulate the Winds won't make them a Wizard.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Out of curiosity, did something happen in this theoretical future to kill off Ruprecht? Because this makes it sound like it. I'm also curious what was actually done to you repay this sheer level of debt...