We were talking about Vlag and how long it may have spent in the Aerthyr (probably more than a few days ago) and I kept reminding people time on the other side is probably not the same.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
We were talking about Vlag and how long it may have spent in the Aerthyr (probably more than a few days ago) and I kept reminding people time on the other side is probably not the same.
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
Everyone was right:
When we get there it will be held by us due to weird time shenanigans.
When we get there it will be held by us due to weird time shenanigans.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
If we were to vote for that, I hope we'd try to pace him to something like "aid me and the Empire in legally acquiring the secret of the Steam Engine without unduly risking your honor, life or kingdom. There's no hurry but I'd rather it happen within the next century" or something like that. Because while he can't just give it to us, he can do a lot. He can pressure Gotri the radical. He can give the Guild stuff they want. He can aid Mathilde in quests for the Guild. He can actively instruct the Empire (through envoys and such) in how to seem/become more worthy of it. He can lobby with the High King. He can work on increasing the likelihood of becoming the next High King.
In general such a boon should be less about collosal effort and more about continued and steady effort.
Does anyone know which of these correspond to which fantasy culture.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Going off of names, I'd assume Imperial, Dwarfs, Asrai and Drucchi.
Edit: Almost right- King's Sleep is a Bretonnian winter holiday, about Gilles le Breton, said to be sleeping King-Arthur-style.
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- Location
- Finland
Ah, we're back to "Uplift the empire" debate.
I'd rather not.
I just don't see steam engine doing much, first we'd need to get better smelters and forges to create more reliable steel in bulk to make use of any train concepts, most stationary power generation can be done with wind or ox.
If we really want to (i don't, but if we do, we should be as effective as we can about it) start uplifting the empire, let's get the secrets of making reliable steel and iron instead.
I'd rather not.
I just don't see steam engine doing much, first we'd need to get better smelters and forges to create more reliable steel in bulk to make use of any train concepts, most stationary power generation can be done with wind or ox.
If we really want to (i don't, but if we do, we should be as effective as we can about it) start uplifting the empire, let's get the secrets of making reliable steel and iron instead.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Look all we need to do is abduct Bugman and forcefeed him experiments in brewing until he stops making Angry Longbeard Noises.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
It already does (possess those secrets). The Empire has metallurgical knowledge several centuries ahead of its contemporaries, and the technological capacity to make use of it.
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I would hard no and fight any attempt to go the 'uplift' road or getting traits and skills that logically will lead that way (looking at you engineer trait.)
1: I just don't like the idea in general, it always requires an OC 'road map' of inventions and policies that the character could not know.
2: I've seen it before. I would rather see the pure magic mad scientist route then the 'magi tech' Mad scientist route again.
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One thing that's worth noting about Dun is that we simply don't know what we don't know. What sort of Chaos army attacked the Karak? Was is Slaanesh, Undivided, some other single god host? Borek left before the attack could commence in earnest before the Wastes advanced, there could be anything out there and they could have chosen any vector of attack. The fact that the power was still on in Vlag was more encouraging than not, but I would be far more encouraged if it stays on after Mathilde reconnects it. That could be a ploy to give us false hope, but that is more Tzeench than Slaanesh.
tapkomet
Senātus Populusque Rōmānus
- Location
- Ukraine
So we get there, and the other-us tell us "okay, now you hold it until you're relieved by the next guys".
Then they head back home.
- Location
- Finland
My first bit, mentions the word "bulk", which is important.
One of the reasons something like railway network is not viable is the inability to mass produce rails.
Empire does not have the ability to make reliable steel at the amounts it would need to really make use of a steam engine.
Reliable steel makes for reliable weapons, and reliable engines, reliable mass production makes for reliable and cheap weapons.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
I suspect the greater limitation is the tendency of wandering monsters and the intermittent armies of darkness to destroy largely unattended infrastructure. (Also, us being backwards in time compared to the post Storm of Chaos setting the rest of the RPG takes place in, I guess; the span of time between now and then is greater than the span of time between no-internet and today.)
- Location
- Finland
I think the biggest limitation is simply money.
Making railway is expensive, and there is not enough need for one to make it worth it, bandits and beastmen being one major cost involved.
Empire could make the rails, they'd just be expensive, and dwarves could sell the engines, they'd also be expensive.
There is no perceived need for a railway, or a steam engine, worth the money it would take.
If the canal project didn't pan out the empire might have looked to develop more advanced overland travel. However with dwarves building a canal to connect the empires rivers there's not going to be much will to develop railroads, at least for the short term. Long term lack of accessible fossil fuels will make it pretty difficult to support long term rail infrastructure.
Skaven and Beastmen are probably not the best examples here.
Sylvania - Dhar infested wasteland that has remained that way for over a thousand years since the Skaven hit it. The corruption here is comparable to the kurgan steppes and we count that as chaos territory. I think there is a good case most of the Waystones here are gone.
Drakwald - A terrible dense forest unclaimable by the forces of the empire that constantly spews out Beastmen and other assorted monsters. Again this place sounds pretty Dhar corrupted. Waystones probably destroyed.
Forest of Shadows - Took over most of Ostland after Gorthor rampaged over it. A constant haven of chaos cultists and marauders attacking convoys passing through the area. People who venture in jump at shadows and turn to paranoia as the whole forest seems out to get them. Sounds Dhar corrupted to me, Waystones probably destroyed.
Large parts of the Empires Waystone network is gone, that is why the countries further south view us as part of the Chaos Waste.
Right now the deep wastes start around Duum. The chance that taking the Duum waystone moves them far enough south to cover the entire Kurgan steppes is something I think Chaos would take if they had the chance.
We are just not important enough for Chaos to sacrifice their overarching goals for hundreds of years to mess with us personally.
Especially when the next northernmost Waystone if Duum fell might be as far south as Vlag.
I'm not expecting full sunshine and roses when we get there. I am expecting Chaos to have it besieged. For there to be lots of damage to the dwarfhold itself. For them to have taken significant losses. For them to have made uncomfortable choices to help hold the line. For them to be upset that help took so long to come.
Maybe order got pushed back as far as the Waystone room itself.
Maybe only the runes themselves are still holding like on some of the vaults at K8P.
But if Chaos could destroy that Waystone they would have. It is worth more then the demonic backdoor.
The fact that the Chaos Wastes recede again after each Great War tells us that the Waystone network is mostly intact, if degraded. The Winds of Magic are still being drained from most of the world, including the places you mention.
For Sylvania, for instance, the problem isn't excessive magic levels, it's the Warpstone dust, which the Waystones don't help with anyway.
We know that the Waystone network still exists because there's an incentive for necromancers to block nexuses to manufacture Dhar for them to use. If there wasn't energy flowing through the network, it wouldn't be able to produce it.
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On the other hand each time a necromancer blocks off one of them Sylvania gets worse to the point where it is comparable to the Wastes. I'm not sure it I would call the network intact or even truly functional at this point.
The chaos wastes haven't receded since the last great war.
The old dividing line was at Duum, the new one is at either Praag, or the northern edge of the Skull road. Several hundred miles south of where it used to be.
The Kurgan Steppes have stayed corrupted the whole way through. Which suggests any waystones that stood there are gone. That is what Chaos might be able to drag into the deep wastes if they take Duum. Which pushes the next northenmost point to Vlag. Still further north then the empire. But still several hundred miles south of where it was. That in doing so we are going to see the Kurgan shift, in the same way that northern Norscan tribes are significantly worse then the southern ones.
Possibly even that the dividing line between where daemons can avoid instability starts being close enough that they can run south into Kislev before they dissipate under the right conditions.
My arguments about the Empire were not that we don't have a waystone network at all. But that we have a damaged one. That Chaos has taken great swings at it every time they have made a major incursion.
That it is portioned into the parts we have held, and the parts where we have lost. And that chaos has taken such opportunities to increase their hold.
If we assume the engines not to be a problem I still think railways are more or less completely unfeasible and uneconomic. They consume ungodly amounts of Steel, that the pre to early industrial methods of the empire are simply unable to deliver. Even if we assume the industrial capacity to be somewhat sufficient (which I dont believe it to be), the steel is already spoken for in arms production. More cannons, muskets, armor and what not will always take precedence. Transportation in general in the empire is and will for the forseeable tied to rivers. Its easy, its where the population is etc.
Not that I think that line of thinking is totally doomed. Steamengines for the Imperium still sound like a decent to awesome idea through their more mundane applications (especially those that are anathema to the dwarves
).
They can be used to drain mines, pull minecarts out, in general drive mass production like a watermill would just more controllable (speed/power) and independent of flowing water (I assume the Imperium has those? If not thats a hurdle but not insurmountable).
Not that I think that line of thinking is totally doomed. Steamengines for the Imperium still sound like a decent to awesome idea through their more mundane applications (especially those that are anathema to the dwarves
).They can be used to drain mines, pull minecarts out, in general drive mass production like a watermill would just more controllable (speed/power) and independent of flowing water (I assume the Imperium has those? If not thats a hurdle but not insurmountable).
Worse yet when it comes to steam engines in the Empire the railways are very easy for beastmen and greenskins to destroy. there is no comparable example to draw on from Earth's past because these are enemies with supernatural means to break the railway. A giant's club, a shaman calling on the Dark Gods/ Gork and Mork, a literal daemon being summoned, all these things can break the railway and then what happens? Your expensive rail way wreaked, your highly trained crew is dinner for the beastmen/greenskins and all the effort you put into it is wasted.
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- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Um, we are a page or three past it, but let's please NOT turn on Zuftbar's ancestral pumps. We know that Stirland was once covered by deep forests, and was scoured clean by a flood big enough to create a local god that still lingers.
I would recommend anyone thinking about the giant pumps to consider where the water will go.
I would recommend anyone thinking about the giant pumps to consider where the water will go.
Why do people think that you need steam engines and trains to industrialise? Trains were a consequence of the industrial revolution, not the cause. It was canals that enabled the industrialisation of Britain, so if we really want to uplift the Empire, we should be building canal networks that can enable the shipment of raw goods from farms and mines to population centres, where they can be manufactured in factories, and then shipped off by canal to ports and trade centres.
Which is, uh, sort of already happening? Sure, the planned canal network is "only" connecting a couple of dwarfholds to the Empire's river network (which is already the heart of the Empire's trade network), but the first British canal (the Bridgewater Canal) "only" connected a coal mine to a factory in a small village, and that village is now the City of Manchester. That was about 4 or 5 decades before the first trains in Britain.
Hmm, I wonder if the EIC could link the Talabec and the Stir together, following the Old Dwarf Road. That would enable a lot of trade between Talabheim and Wurtbad, although that could result in a lot of merchants bypassing Altdorf unless they are going to Marienburg. Maybe linking the Stir and the Aver would be better? Averland is famous for cattle, and if there's a Aver-Stir canal and a Stir-Talabec canal, that means Talabheim can buy meat and Averheim can buy lumber, and it will all pass through Wurtbad instead of Altdorf. Those are long routes however―between 100 and 150 miles for each connection. Then again, that's about how long the British Grand Trunk canal is, and that was a major trade link between Hull and Liverpool.
If we could add Middenheim to the network (either by extending the river Delb and linking it to Altdorf or following the Old Forest Road between Talabheim, then that puts us within a stones throw of the Nordlandic coast, bypassing Marienburg completely! Guys I solved the Marienburg problem! All it requires is about 500+ miles of canal through the most dangerous forest in the old world linking two rival states that are in the middle of a violent religious dispute! It's so simple!
Okay, maybe I'm starting to plan for chickens I don't have the eggs for yet, but honestly, canals are pretty sweet, and they're not as technically challenging to build as railways, they're mostly just labour intensive.
Which is, uh, sort of already happening? Sure, the planned canal network is "only" connecting a couple of dwarfholds to the Empire's river network (which is already the heart of the Empire's trade network), but the first British canal (the Bridgewater Canal) "only" connected a coal mine to a factory in a small village, and that village is now the City of Manchester. That was about 4 or 5 decades before the first trains in Britain.
Hmm, I wonder if the EIC could link the Talabec and the Stir together, following the Old Dwarf Road. That would enable a lot of trade between Talabheim and Wurtbad, although that could result in a lot of merchants bypassing Altdorf unless they are going to Marienburg. Maybe linking the Stir and the Aver would be better? Averland is famous for cattle, and if there's a Aver-Stir canal and a Stir-Talabec canal, that means Talabheim can buy meat and Averheim can buy lumber, and it will all pass through Wurtbad instead of Altdorf. Those are long routes however―between 100 and 150 miles for each connection. Then again, that's about how long the British Grand Trunk canal is, and that was a major trade link between Hull and Liverpool.
If we could add Middenheim to the network (either by extending the river Delb and linking it to Altdorf or following the Old Forest Road between Talabheim, then that puts us within a stones throw of the Nordlandic coast, bypassing Marienburg completely! Guys I solved the Marienburg problem! All it requires is about 500+ miles of canal through the most dangerous forest in the old world linking two rival states that are in the middle of a violent religious dispute! It's so simple!
Okay, maybe I'm starting to plan for chickens I don't have the eggs for yet, but honestly, canals are pretty sweet, and they're not as technically challenging to build as railways, they're mostly just labour intensive.
Thanks to Dynasty of Drunken Alcoholism's reminder of just how terrifying the forests and Beastmen are of this world, I've been toying with Windherder spells designed to maximize forest fires.
The slowest, most straightforward, probably most effective, and largest side-effect causing method doesn't even use Windherder: Celestial weather workers just divert rain from the region and cause a drought until everything is nice and flammable.
Windherder-wise I've been thinking about something along the lines of some combination of
-Bright magic BURNITY BURN BURN MOAAAAR FIRE
-Bright magic actually spend the minimal amount of energy infighting new fires when the existing fire fails to spread
-Grey magic acting as a carrier medium to let the fire and/or magic travel across smoke and shadows
-Jade/Amethyst magic ripping the life force out of trees to both make them more flammable and power the other spells
-Jade/Celestial magic: detect and avoid towns
The slowest, most straightforward, probably most effective, and largest side-effect causing method doesn't even use Windherder: Celestial weather workers just divert rain from the region and cause a drought until everything is nice and flammable.
Windherder-wise I've been thinking about something along the lines of some combination of
-Bright magic BURNITY BURN BURN MOAAAAR FIRE
-Bright magic actually spend the minimal amount of energy infighting new fires when the existing fire fails to spread
-Grey magic acting as a carrier medium to let the fire and/or magic travel across smoke and shadows
-Jade/Amethyst magic ripping the life force out of trees to both make them more flammable and power the other spells
-Jade/Celestial magic: detect and avoid towns
- As seen in the past few updates Celestial mages can't even properly bring rain to water crops, never mind contest the far more numerous and more reckless Brey Shamans to kill every forest in the Empire.
- I'm pretty sure what you are describing there is less a spell and more and artificial daemon. If it's making a judgement call on what is and is not a town it can't just be an ordinary spell.
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