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On that subject, are there any books we want to place a bounty on?
I would consider putting a bounty on The Book of Ashur but IIRC there were like 10 copies of the damned book (so it would be quite expensive) and it may or may not tickle a few Witch Hunters in our general direction, The Book of Secrets also seem interesting since it increases the power of Shadow Magic...

@BoneyM in this quest tose Grimmoires are forbidden books like the Liber Mortis, or they are simply extremely rare?
 
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I've actually been wondering a lot about the Draconic language lately. I wonder where that falls on the whole Arcane Language thing, and if Cython would be willing to teach us.

We know that the closer a language gets to the Old One Tongue the better it is for understanding magic, but Draconic is interesting in that regard in the sense that it's on another track entirely, it doesn't descend from the Old One Tongue, and, I don't know about you, but I've never found Dragons lacking in their ability to learn and understand the greater secrets of the world.

I wonder if Draconic might give us a similar boost to learning magic.

PS, I'm sure all of this has been addressed at some point in the past, but, well, I either didn't see it or don't recall so I'm still curious.
 
I would consider putting a bounty On the Warp, by Ashur but IIRC there were like 10 copies of the damned book (so it would be quite expensive) and it may or may not tickle a few Witch Hunters in our general direction, The Book of Secrets also seem interesting since it increases the power of Shadow Magic...
Haven't heard of these books before. Where'd you get them from?
 
On a slightly different note @BoneyM, not that I'm interested in Mathilde haveing a child (huge action sink that it is) but if she did and the kid had magic would Kragg be willing to make a talisman for of Valaya's Vengence to help keep them safe for accidental Dhar? Given dwarf views of family that feels like something that make sense, though it might be me being too optimistic.
 
On a slightly different note @BoneyM, not that I'm interested in Mathilde haveing a child (huge action sink that it is) but if she did and the kid had magic would Kragg be willing to make a talisman for of Valaya's Vengence to help keep them safe for accidental Dhar? Given dwarf views of family that feels like something that make sense, though it might be me being too optimistic.
Rule of pride might get in the way
 
Here's a weird concept, I wonder if we could reverse-engineer our own first gen Magic language by studying the bits in common from the descending languages.

Thanks to the two Language Maps we know that most languages come from the Old One Tongue, and it split into four directions (or 6 with Saurian and Albionese, and hypothetically up to 8, but those aren't on both maps, only one). Daemonic, Nehekharan, Dwarven, and Old Reikspeil. The closer a language is to the Old One Tongue, the easier it is to learn and understand magic when you know said language.

We know at least one language from every branch except Nehekharan, which would be easy to remedy by learning either some Nehekharan or, more readily available, some Arabyan or Strigani. I wonder if, theoretically, and this would be an intense project, we could reverse engineer a new language that is, as far as understanding magic goes, equivalent to any of the first gen magic languages by examining the common points between the various languages, particularly the common points.

...................

Also, potential leads on first gen languages. High Nehekharan and first Gen Ulthuan, not convinced we can find people to teach it to us directly ... but we are a pretty highly respected and high ranking Dwarf, and the Dawi did business with both of those cultures far enough back that those languages might still have been in daily usage. There's a real chance of there being a translation guide somewhere, or written record of a contract or an agreement we can use as a Rosetta's stone for either language. Especially with the Elves, as they had Peace Agreements, and Research Collaborations, and Military Alliances. Also specifically in the case of the Elves, might be a possibility of a novel in the first gen Elven language in a vault somewhere?

Also, the language of Albion is apparently a first gen magic language and I think merc's from that nation have already started appearing in the Old World, maybe. Might be able to learn it from one of them? If not, if we don't die of unnatural cause we should still be alive when Albion is revealed to the world, could learn it first hand.

I feel like I've had this conversation before and had at least the Albion thing addressed in the past?


So, this has me curious, blue means that there's no native speakers, but the language still exists somewhere.

Does that mean Old Reikspiel is written down somewhere, or is this in regards to, I don't know, Drachenfels being real real old?
 
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Does that mean Old Reikspiel is written down somewhere, or is this in regards to, I don't know, Drachenfels being real real old?
I would assume it is remembered by some of the really old dwarfs or maybe elves. Maybe used among some circles of nobility as way to snob on others in very formal ocassions.
 
I just remembered something and had wanted to post about (but had forgotten). But, there's something pretty important that Mathilde just gained here:
"I'd believed from the High King's reticence that the flow had stopped. It's hard not to feel hope in that it was redirected at Karak Vlag, rather than ended at Karag Dum. But I am curious how you came to know of it. Did Ulthuan tell your Order, or did King Belegar inherit secrets?"

"Neither," you say after you regain your mental balance. "It was a new discovery."

"You manlings are full of surprises," he says, turning to look at you. "Something my home has been long aware of, but perhaps too used to thinking of as a curse, as the only manlings we see much of are the Marauder tribes."

"I wasn't aware that Karag Dum would know of the network," you venture.

He smiles bleakly. "Karag Dum remembers much that others have forgotten, even when some might prefer we didn't. Even when we might prefer we didn't."
The fact that Karag Dum knows about the Waystones sending energy south, and do not consider it a theft of energy!

This is important, because Mathilde can use it to try to persuade Belegar out of his "Because it allows him to rob my Karak blind!" theory. Admittedly, Belegar came to that conclusion due to Thorgrim not sending aid at all, and so Belegar was always on the look-out for the worst interpretations and reasons to be pissed at Thorgrim. (Somebody noted how he's looking for a reason to be critical of the Okral's work or possibly make them leave early; this, despite how important and useful and vital the work they are doing.)

So, it's not a fully rational and reasoned-out reason we're working with here. Buuut. It's a way to chip away at the armor of cynicism, skepticism, doubt, grudges, and feelings of betrayal or disappointment, that Belegar feels towards Thorgrim.

Because we can, at least, make headway in providing proof that Karaz-a-Karak does not just steal energy from the other holds.

Because, if Karag Dum knew about it, if trustworthy-enough members of their royal family know it -- rather than just the King and the Heir, or the chief Runemaster of the hold -- then it's got implications for what the Waystones are for.

Of course, again, this was just Belegar jumping to the worst conclusion about Thorgrim he could. And Dwarfs are infamously hard to convince out of a position they have convinced themselves of.

But. It's a start and a possibility.
 
Here's a weird concept, I wonder if we could reverse-engineer our own first gen Magic language by studying the bits in common from the descending languages.
While it'd be an interesting challenge scholastically, what are the practicals of it?
As far as I know, the Lingua Praestantia is just a set of mnemonics to assist with the mental gymnastics that is spellcasting?
 
Because, if Karag Dum knew about it, if trustworthy-enough members of their royal family know it -- rather than just the King and the Heir, or the chief Runemaster of the hold -- then it's got implications for what the Waystones are for.
The reason they know about it is not because of some kind of great inheritance of secrets, but because Karak Dum remembers the Golden Age and why the waystone network exists at all, is what i got from that exchange. If they did not share this knowledge with other holds that forgot, there is likely a big honking reason for it.
 
The fact that Karag Dum knows about the Waystones sending energy south, and do not consider it a theft of energy!

We don't know that actually. Go back to what Borek said and read it with a modicum of suspicion rather than a desire to dispel those suspicions:

He smiles bleakly. "Karag Dum remembers much that others have forgotten, even when some might prefer we didn't. Even when we might prefer we didn't."

The above looks like Dun was getting something for its power and keeping the deal secret because the High King did not want to pay other holds for their magic, hence, even when some might prefer we didn't

The High king in this situation would prefer Dun did not know about their resources so they too could be ripped off.
 
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The reason they know about it is not because of some kind of great inheritance of secrets, but because Karak Dum remembers the Golden Age and why the waystone network exists at all, is what i got from that exchange. If they did not share this knowledge with other holds that forgot, there is likely a big honking reason for it.
I'll take "Tradition" for 200$
 
That said this is all very tangential because Mathilde will never be a runesmith unless we discover Ranald actually did steal her soul and it was from a former runesmith who died without proper rites somehow which is about as likely as Lord Kroak showing up to teach her the Deliverance of Itza IMO.
BoneyM: "And at the gate of Dum you find a mummified frog beastman about to be sacrificed by Chaos tribesmen."
 
Isn't our book reseller based in Barak Varr? If we want a book on a given subject from Barak Varr, we could just pass on the request to them and if anything comes up they'll produce it for us like they did with the Khazalid-Classical translator. All we have to do is place a bounty for the books we want like we did with the dragon bone.

On that subject, are there any books we want to place a bounty on?

That is possible, but note that their reach comes from relationships with publishers and booksellers in the Old World, so nothing too exotic is that likely to come through them...

I would consider putting a bounty on The Book of Ashur but IIRC there were like 10 copies of the damned book (so it would be quite expensive) and it may or may not tickle a few Witch Hunters in our general direction, The Book of Secrets also seem interesting since it increases the power of Shadow Magic...

...such as these.

@BoneyM in this quest tose Grimmoires are forbidden books like the Liber Mortis, or they are simply extremely rare?

The Book of Ashur is bound in Beastmen skin and very strongly suggests that the reader should go to the Chaos Gods for further magical insight, and the Book of Secrets is so tainted that it mutates anyone that tries to use the secrets it contains. They are SUPER forbidden, and for damn good reason.

My impression is that Kragg can, for example, read some runes on a wall in Karak Eight Peaks and learn from them "danger, there's a trap here," and then tell other dwarves (and for that matter manlings) "wait while I deactivate the trap." And that if he does this, he's not violating any oaths by doing so, because while this is an 'insight' derived from his knowledge of Arcane Khazalid, it isn't a secret of the Runesmiths.

This is the case.

On a slightly different note @BoneyM, not that I'm interested in Mathilde haveing a child (huge action sink that it is) but if she did and the kid had magic would Kragg be willing to make a talisman for of Valaya's Vengence to help keep them safe for accidental Dhar? Given dwarf views of family that feels like something that make sense, though it might be me being too optimistic.

The kid would have to prove themselves before they'd be entrusted with that.

Also, the language of Albion is apparently a first gen magic language and I think merc's from that nation have already started appearing in the Old World, maybe. Might be able to learn it from one of them? If not, if we don't die of unnatural cause we should still be alive when Albion is revealed to the world, could learn it first hand.

I feel like I've had this conversation before and had at least the Albion thing addressed in the past?

From the WoQM archive threadmark:

Albion:
Truthsayers and Dark Emissaries started showing up in the wider world in 2517, Albion's mists disappeared from 2518-2521. In the current day, Albion is a farcical tall tale. A hidden island the size of a province just northwest of Lyonesse, smack bang in the middle of some of the most frequented waters in the world? Ridiculous.

So, this has me curious, blue means that there's no native speakers, but the language still exists somewhere.

Does that mean Old Reikspiel is written down somewhere, or is this in regards to, I don't know, Drachenfels being real real old?

Old Reikspiel is used in much the same way Latin was in the Middle Ages, as a second language of priests and academics.
 
We don't know that actually. Go back to what Borek said and read it with a modicum of suspicion rather than a desire to dispel those suspicions:

He smiles bleakly. "Karag Dum remembers much that others have forgotten, even when some might prefer we didn't. Even when we might prefer we didn't."

The above looks like Dun was getting something for its power and keeping the deal secret because the High King did not want to pay other holds for their magic, hence, even when some might prefer we didn't

The High king in this situation would prefer Dun did not know about their resources so they too could be ripped off.
Eh, he might have been talking about other secrets, non-Waystone secrets, actually.

But, instead of a cynical everybody-out-for-themselves perspective on things, have a depressive one instead; Thorgrim might not want them to know because... he doesn't want a ton of people to know that the Runes of Valaya are running out of power and will fail and the Dwarfs are totally and irretrievably doomed. Because if a ton of people know that, then things can get a bit risky and explosive or there is potential for huge upsets and panics amongst the whole of the Karaz Ankor. So yes, Thorgrim might not want most people to know how the Dwarfs are inevitably doomed. Heck. Thorgrim does not to know how the Dwarfs are inevitably doomed! He'd rather not have known this either, and understood as soon as he sat the throne, why his uncle allowed himself to be carried away by his wounds.

Although, when it came to "other people" my mind had actually wondered about the other Holds and the Runelords. Namely that, Karag Dum knew why Karag Dum and the Waystones were important and key to the defense against Chaos. Despite how the other Runelords of the Karaz Ankor might not have wanted them to know why they were just oh-so-important to the Karaz Ankor.

The Runelords that spoke bitterly at the conclave, and the people that started the cultural shift against Karag Dum (because it wouldn't just be Runelords alone), would rather that Karag Dum be known for suspicion and "How do we know they're worth their word anyway, eh?" Because to admit otherwise, is to admit that they failed to prevent the end of the Silver Age.

But if Borek knows the truth, if Karag Dum knows the truth... Despite what all the people of the Karaz Ankor who have been accusing Karag Dum might want... ... Well.


So, if anything, this is probably a Karaz Ankor-wide politics thing. Rather than a Karag Dum-High King Thorgrim matter.

Though technically, I guess High King Thorgrim would also prefer Karag Dum to not march up to the rest of the Karaz Ankor and go "'What good are we', eh? 'Untrustworthy', eh? What does Dum do that is so crucial and important? Well let me tell you, Beardling...!" And cause tons and tons of explosive friction in the Cult of Thungni and possibly sour the relationship the Runesmiths have with their home Holds; because if they were the driving part for casting rocks at Karag Dum, and they misled the Dwarfholds from not sending enough backup to rescue Karak Vlag and Karag Dum, then... ... Yeah.

I think Thorgrim, if he has feelings on this matter, is probably something similar to that of Thorek's reaction and bitterness/worry/concern upon learning about the rifts between Karaz Ankor and Karag Dum Runesmiths: namely that of "Shit, this could cause a huge political rift and cause tons of people to go Slayer, and cause so many Grudges..."

Thorgrim isn't worried about people worrying about Karaz-a-Karak stealing energy. That's not a likely worry, and the Throne of Power is meant to power the Protections of Valaya and other Great Works. It's all utility and defense and function and so on. No, Thorgrim is worrying about the same sort of thing as Thorek is.

And it's far more likely and plausible -- in some kind of bad-case-scenario or even just a not-perfectly-diplomatically-smoothed-over-scenario -- that Karag Dum and Thorek finding out the truth of things, could cause a ton of political upheaval, concerning the anti-Dum feelings and accusations that were thrown around.

Karak Vlag returning and Karag Dum being recovered, could be a shot of enthusiasm and hope for the Dwarf people. But it might also be the potential for a huge political headache.

Thorgrim will probably be more relieved at the Dwarfs having a future now, but also with new issues to worry about, too.

If we could somehow get Borek, Thorek, Belegar, and Karak Vlag, and Karag Dum, to somehow come together and... not cause a ton of diplomatic fallout from things? That would be great.
 
The kid would have to prove themselves before they'd be entrusted with that.

So not a potential training aid, got it.

@Garlak I was not really talking about what happened in reality. Obviously the High King is not looting the other Old Holds of magic, we read his interlude. I was trying to deduce what Mathy and Belegar might see if they looked at his words with the preexisting bias in the matter.
 
So as long as he final product is sanitized of anything that could potentially be considered secret knowledge we're good to release it even if secret knowledge was used in its creation?

Yes. The prohibition is mainly a wall against 'laundering' secret knowledge by very carefully circumscribing it without actually sharing any of it, allowing it to be figured out by others.
 
So as long as he final product is sanitized of anything that could potentially be considered secret knowledge we're good to release it even if secret knowledge was used in its creation?
The joke is you will get a book with nothing but black markers used for sensoring, or notifying that certain marker means 'Fck Stop! And do it fckn now!'
 
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