Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
That does make me wonder how the College Fascis handles Dhar. It has the eight different enchantments for each of the eight different Winds, but presumably if Dhar flows though one of those enchantments it would be the former would be likely to corrupt the later by contact.

If any of the eight single Winds enchantments can safely channel Dhar, that does make me wonder whether it would be possible to make an ultra-cheap version of the component that only drains Dhar from an area without draining the Winds.
It's composed of a single central rod of conductive material surrounded by eight wooden rods containing enchantments drawing in their respective Winds, when on of the Winds is being drawn in the repulsive effect between Winds warps the enchantments of the other Winds enough to that they become temporarily disabled and do not interfere, in order to draw in Dhar it relies on a connection to the attractive force of the Great Vortex and the attractive force of the Dhar is strong enough to warp all eight enchantments in the opposite way but with a similar level of distortion such that they are all temporarily disabled, as none of the eight surrounding rods are the ones sucking in Dhar it is presumably sucked in by the central conductive rod by itself which is transmitting the Great Vortex's Dhar attractive force, if we needed to create a pure Dhar version we could presumably do away with all eight enchantments which are the hard part and rely purely on the central conductive rod. One potential problem or benefit depending on your perspective for deploying this in Athel Loren is that it won't gather any Winds that could be used and what Dhar it does suck up would have to be destined for the Great Vortex, to make use of it you'd have to extract it mid-journey and the Dhar-only Waystones couldn't be a part of Athel Loren's presumed independent network which presumably draws in magic to somewhere that isn't the Great Vortex, it would have to be part of Ulthuan's since they're the only ones who's network terminates at the Great Vortex, the only way to work around that is if Athel Loren is able to provide a Dhar attractive force similar to the draw of the Great Vortex.
 
It's composed of a single central rod of conductive material surrounded by eight wooden rods containing enchantments drawing in their respective Winds, when on of the Winds is being drawn in the repulsive effect between Winds warps the enchantments of the other Winds enough to that they become temporarily disabled and do not interfere, in order to draw in Dhar it relies on a connection to the attractive force of the Great Vortex and the attractive force of the Dhar is strong enough to warp all eight enchantments in the opposite way but with a similar level of distortion such that they are all temporarily disabled, as none of the eight surrounding rods are the ones sucking in Dhar it is presumably sucked in by the central conductive rod by itself which is transmitting the Great Vortex's Dhar attractive force, if we needed to create a pure Dhar version we could presumably do away with all eight enchantments which are the hard part and rely purely on the central conductive rod. One potential problem or benefit depending on your perspective for deploying this in Athel Loren is that it won't gather any Winds that could be used and what Dhar it does suck up would have to be destined for the Great Vortex, to make use of it you'd have to extract it mid-journey and the Dhar-only Waystones couldn't be a part of Athel Loren's presumed independent network which presumably draws in magic to somewhere that isn't the Great Vortex, it would have to be part of Ulthuan's since they're the only ones who's network terminates at the Great Vortex, the only way to work around that is if Athel Loren is able to provide a Dhar attractive force similar to the draw of the Great Vortex.

Athel Loren's Waystone network is a big unknown.

As I understand it, before the War of the Beard Athel Loren was a place that the elves feared and imprisoned inside a ring of what seem to be Waystones. It was only after the conflict with the dwarves was over that and under threat from various enemies, refugee elves fled there, first to the glades on the edge of the forest and then even later into the deep forest after cutting a deal with the spirits.

That means that it seems very unlikely that there would have been any infrastructure built inside Athel Loren during the Golden Age. Anything there must have been built by the elven refugees afterwards or are Old One relics.
 
Athel Loren's Waystone network is a big unknown.

As I understand it, before the War of the Beard Athel Loren was a place that the elves feared and imprisoned inside a ring of what seem to be Waystones. It was only after the conflict with the dwarves was over that and under threat from various enemies, refugee elves fled there, first to the glades on the edge of the forest and then even later into the deep forest after cutting a deal with the spirits.

That means that it seems very unlikely that there would have been any infrastructure built inside Athel Loren during the Golden Age. Anything there must have been built by the elven refugees afterwards or are Old One relics.
No. Athel Loren was a place of compact with the Spirits. Durthu Championed their cause and aided Elves during Great Catastrophe even.

They do have a prison ward in one of their kingdoms, and they did repurpose their waystones is our theory, but i don't think they specifically feared the place.
 
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No. Athel Loren was a place of compact with the Spirits. Durthu Championed their cause and aided Elves during Great Catastrophe even.

They do have a prison ward in one of their kingdoms, and they did repurpose their waystones is our theory, but i don't think they specifically feared the place.

Yes. Durthu was pretending to be an Averlornian Treeman during the Great Catastrophe. The elves at large didn't realise he was from Athel Loren, I believe. We see this during the Malkeith book.

Athel Loren was quite explicitly feared
 
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Yes. Durthu was pretending to be an Averlornian Treeman during the Great Catastrophe. The elves at large didn't realise he was from Athel Loren.

Athel Loren was quite explicitly feared and imprisoned.
I mean, i am loathe to trust the wiki after it has failed me so, but the part about Durthu saving the line of everqueen by whisking away her daughter away to Athel Loren seems to check out? And then they colonized the place after Vortex got put up? Like why would they settle in a place they feared. Outside of the blood debt to the Forest i guess.

Oh yeah i see it now.

Captivated, the Elves attempted to push deeper, but found themselves thwarted at every turn by shifting paths. Despite this resistance, the Elves never once considered settling elsewhere. The forest's magic was in their blood, a legacy of Astarielle's long-ago pact, and it could not be denied. Thus did the Elves name the forest Athel Loren, which translates to "Wood of the Dawning of the World". They settled on its outskirts and planted great waystones about the boundaries to contain the spirits within. Despite these precautions, folk occasionally vanished into the forest, driven by strange visions or lured by ghost-like nymphs. None of these were ever seen again.[1i]

I don't think they really feared the place, but they did chain the spirits i guess.
 
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Athel Loren's Waystone network is a big unknown.

As I understand it, before the War of the Beard Athel Loren was a place that the elves feared and imprisoned inside a ring of what seem to be Waystones. It was only after the conflict with the dwarves was over that and under threat from various enemies, refugee elves fled there, first to the glades on the edge of the forest and then even later into the deep forest after cutting a deal with the spirits.

That means that it seems very unlikely that there would have been any infrastructure built inside Athel Loren during the Golden Age. Anything there must have been built by the elven refugees afterwards or are Old One relics.
Even if they don't have any Golden Age Waystones within the forest they might have repurposed the ones surrounding it and given the deal they made with the spirits of the forest they could have conceivably built purely spirit-based Waystones, spirit-based tributaries are possible, spirit-based energy transmission is possible, there seems to be a wholely immaterial Waystone near the Light College with no physical components, it seems entirely possible they could have constructed Waystones of their own either entirely or almost entirely without relying on physical components like the capstone, rune, foundation, and storage mechanism instead relying solely on spirits to do all the work, if anyone could make an entirely spirit-based Waystone design work its either them or the Hag Witches of Kislev.
 
I mean, i am loathe to trust the wiki after it has failed me so, but the part about Durthu saving the line of everqueen by whisking away her daughter away to Athel Loren seems to check out? And then they colonized the place after Vortex got put up? Like why would they settle in a place they feared. Outside of the blood debt to the Forest i guess.

Durthu lied to the elves about where the Ever Daughter was kept. He told them that she was kept in a sacred, protected location within Averlorn:

Article:
"She is Yvraine," said Oakheart*, his voice a melodic noise like the sighing of a light wind through branches. "Though Astarielle remained to protect Avelorn against the daemons, she bid us to take her children to safety. To the Gaen Vale** I carried them, where no other elf has trod. There my kin and I fought the daemons and kept Yvraine and Morelion safe those many years.
Source: Malkieth novel


* Durthu assumed the identity of Oakheart while pretending to be an Averlornean Treeman, IIRC.

** The Gaen Vale is on an Averlornean island in the Inner Sea.

This passage from Wood Elves 6E is instructive:

Article:
When strife once again began to assail Ulthuan in the insidious guise of the Cult of Pleasure, may elves chose to return to Ulthuan, but there were those who believed that the Phoenix King and his rule had little to do with their lives, and many of these elves moved themselves further inland.

Athel Loren
it was these elves who first encountered the strange and frightening forest that spread from the foothills of the Grey Mountains and the Vaults. The forest was filled with all manner of life, and the Elves constantly felt eyes upon them. At night they saw strange lights dancoing in the darkness, and huge shapes lingered on the edge of the glades. Intrigued by what they saw, the Elves attempted to push further into the dark forest, but they found themselves thwarted at every turn.

Three times did the Elves send expeditions into the forest, each numbering nearly a thousand warriors. Of the first expedition, seven hundred Elves came out of the wood scant hours after they departed, with tales of many fruitless days spent travelling along shifting glades and pathways that curved back on themselves. The second expedition vanished without a trace. Of the third foray, only a single elf returns, her face ashen and drawn, and her body lacerated and bloody. She died a day later, driven witless by her dreams. It was clear that the place perceived the Elves as a threat, and was actively resisting their attempts to dwell with its depths The Elves realised that this magic forest was sentient - like one giant all-encompassing living creatures, and those that it saw as a threat, it would resist.

The elves named the forest Athel Loren. They retreated to the outskirts and placed great magical Waystones about the boundaries.

...
Description of War of the Beard
...
The Birth of the Wood Elves
Following their victory, the Elves began to dwell deeper within the borders of Athel Loren, now fearing reprisals from the dwarves more than they did the capricious nature of the forest.
...
Each group pushed deeper into the forest, deeper than any had gone before. Strangely it seemed that the forest did not resist them, indeed it seemed that Athel Loren now chose to open up many of its secrets to the kinbands.


It was only after the War of the Beard that Athel Loren allowed the elves into its interior.
 
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New prototype WAAAGH detector: A piece of parchment, glued to one's back, that reads as follows: "KICK ME"
Extensive testing has revealed it to be highly capable of detecting the energies of the Little Waaagh!!! but inefficient at detecting the Big Waaagh!!! To adress this deficiency, a new variant was proposed: A piece of parchment glued to one's chest that reads: "Punch me, if you fink youz Ard enuff". :V
If it was, it wouldn't be something for the thread to decide, it would be a math problem with one correct answer and Mathilde would just get one of the numerous nerds within arm's reach to crunch the numbers.
Look at the bright side @Boney: now you can bond with your character over a shared issue of having to beat off math nerds with a stick.
Ariel can just put him on a leash, provided proper incentive.
Even if she can and that is a big if, it would require all those other people, already pissed off due to all the Grudges and Vendettas to trust that she can and would.
 
@Boney, a question, would it be possible to build an even more portable variant of the Portentiv by simplifying it into a whistle with the air passing through a hole in a Dhar-sensitive material, either one of the materials already used in the Portentiv since they all seem Dhar-sensitive given every one of them switches from major to minor key when near Dhar or alternatively an exclusively Dhar-sensitive material so it isn't thrown off in the presence of another Wind, that reacts by changing its shape and thus the sound it makes when blowing air through it? To be clear I'm not asking for Mathilde to design yet another variant of the auditory seviroscope herself, what she's made is already good enough for the vast majority of use cases, it's good for stationary monitoring of local Winds and can be carried around by a team venturing into potentially dangerous areas by having a designated team member carrying it around and playing it while the rest of the group protects them. I'm just wondering if after publishing our paper about it it would be feasible for some other Wizard to take it and simplify it down into a purely Dhar detecting tool in exchange for making it even more portable, for situations like a lone Witchhunter without a team who can't both carry an unwieldy Portentiv and all the rest of their equipment without overencumbering themself and for which the current Portentiv design is not ideal. They likely wouldn't care about the levels of Winds other than Dhar and if the whistle could be shrunk down to the size of a flute or smaller they could just stick it in a bag. Would something like that be a reasonably possible potential adaptation another Wizard could make in the future?

Mathilde had not expected making a magic-detecting kazoo to be what got her excommunicated from polite society.

She'd been hoping that she wouldn't be ejected from society, but the kazoo was not even close to the top of her list of potential culprits.
 
Sarvoi is either an archmage or of equivalent skill. During the negotiations, he was stated to be House Tindomiel's foremost expert in magical theory. He was the counterpart to House Tindomiel's foremost enchanter, who created the storage for the prototype waystone. They had the same cost too. He might not be able to make the storage, but on the chance he can't, he's probably going to be able to do it a lot sooner than most other people.
Right, but that's my point. He's never addressed as an Archmage, indicating he probably doesn't hold the title. He's a 'Senior Lecturer Emeritus of the Library of Mournings'. Amusingly, the fact he's referred to by a purely academic title makes me wonder if Archmage is also an academic title, and thus the qualification is just being better at bureaucracy than Sarvoi ever cared to be.

Creating Dhar from ambient Winds is extremely easy and wouldn't take any particular level of skill - College Apprentices have to be taught to not attract more than one Wind because it's that easy to accidentally create Dhar.

But I assume Sarvoi can use High Magic due to being his House's top theorist (and presumably said theorizing would involve Qhaysh given that they're a magic house).

...Frankly, Archmage is probably a somewhat arbitrary title to translate to Reikspiel, given how Eltharin is a confusing mess where every word has three or more usually-contradicting meanings.
That's true of humans, but perhaps less so of Elves, given that they can evidently put two winds through their souls at once without creating Dhar. I assume that's an inherent property of their souls because if it isn't and there's just One Weird Trick, we're back to Teclis not teaching humans Qhaysh out of spite or paranoia or something.
 
Even if they don't have any Golden Age Waystones within the forest they might have repurposed the ones surrounding it and given the deal they made with the spirits of the forest they could have conceivably built purely spirit-based Waystones, spirit-based tributaries are possible, spirit-based energy transmission is possible, there seems to be a wholely immaterial Waystone near the Light College with no physical components, it seems entirely possible they could have constructed Waystones of their own either entirely or almost entirely without relying on physical components like the capstone, rune, foundation, and storage mechanism instead relying solely on spirits to do all the work, if anyone could make an entirely spirit-based Waystone design work its either them or the Hag Witches of Kislev.
Though they do keep the Waystones surrounding Athel Loren.

I believe in 8th edition it's stated that Athel Loren needs to be contained or it will try to spread and the Forest Spirits will go fully feral from the effort.
 
Though they do keep the Waystones surrounding Athel Loren.

I believe in 8th edition it's stated that Athel Loren needs to be contained or it will try to spread and the Forest Spirits will go fully feral from the effort.
Interesting, though if that functions then either:
  1. Whatever is containing Athel Loren isn't Waystones but something else superficially similarities and has either:
    1. Been kept completely intact throughout the millennia.
    2. Has been damaged but had enough redundancies to prevent its spread despite this.
    3. Has been damaged but is supplemented by artificial replacements from Athel Loren.
    4. Has been damaged but is supplemented by another containment system such as power from a Waystone network Athel Loren has constructed.
    5. Has intentionally been damaged allow it to slightly fail in such a way that its growth is slow enough that it doesn't drive the forest spirits to madness.
    6. Has been damaged and unintentionally been allowed to fail significantly and Athel Loren is beginning to spread to a degree that the forest spirits are going to go mad if they haven't already and would really appreciate some help but are either too proud to ask or don't believe anybody else has the ability to help, depending depending on how useful our Waystones are we may be able to turn scenario 1.6 to 1.4 and earn a lot of favor from them.
  2. Whatever is containing Athel Loren is Waystones and:
    1. Have been kept perfectly intact throughout the millennia.
    2. Has been damaged but had enough redundancies to prevent its spread despite this.
    3. Has been damaged but is supplemented by artificial replacements from Athel Loren.
    4. Has been damaged but is supplemented by artificial replacements from Athel Loren and excess Waystones have been built inside Athel Loren in a network of their own to supplement the energy required to maintain the perimeter if one of the outer Waystones falls as well as gather energy for their own uses.
    5. Has intentionally been damaged allow it to slightly fail in such a way that its growth is slow enough that it doesn't drive the forest spirits to madness.
    6. Has been damaged and unintentionally been allowed to fail significantly and Athel Loren is beginning to spread to a degree that the forest spirits are going to go mad if they haven't already and would really appreciate some help but are either too proud to ask or don't believe anybody else has the ability to help, depending depending on how useful our Waystones are we may be able to turn scenario 2.6 to 2.3 or 2.4 minus the "from Athel Loren" bits and earn a lot of favor from them.
Either way I see some potential opportunities here.
 
That's true of humans, but perhaps less so of Elves, given that they can evidently put two winds through their souls at once without creating Dhar. I assume that's an inherent property of their souls because if it isn't and there's just One Weird Trick, we're back to Teclis not teaching humans Qhaysh out of spite or paranoia or something.
I think that's a less inborn attribute, and more a "decades of time training".
Humans might be able to do it, if not for the whole "dies of old age" thing.
 
I think that's a less inborn attribute, and more a "decades of time training".
Humans might be able to do it, if not for the whole "dies of old age" thing.
Possibly so, except Loremasters exist, use all eight Winds and don't use Qhaysh. Which implies either Loremasters do all the requisite training for High Magic but just don't use it, or else Elves can naturally wield more than one Wind, and High Magic training is about using them together.
 
I believe in 8th edition it's stated that Athel Loren needs to be contained or it will try to spread and the Forest Spirits will go fully feral from the effort.
Might there be some connection to the effect we saw around Karag Dum? Khsar is expanding His desert domain there, and Morghuar is known to have some sort of obsession with Athel Loren - perhaps because there's a similar and rival power to Him residing there? Possibly Khsar is doing his thing by using the magic flowing into the Karak-Waystone, in which case the Waystones ringing Athel Loren could be meant to cut off the inflow of magic into Athel Loren to make a similar expansion impossible, or at least very slow.
 
Possibly so, except Loremasters exist, use all eight Winds and don't use Qhaysh. Which implies either Loremasters do all the requisite training for High Magic but just don't use it, or else Elves can naturally wield more than one Wind, and High Magic training is about using them together.
The trick is to not have arcane marks, and make sure your soul is clean of other winds.
Humans can do it, just takes lot of rest between switching winds, elves persumably have more training focused on keepin your soul clean of winds.
High magic is, i believe, a bit more difficult.
 
Might there be some connection to the effect we saw around Karag Dum? Khsar is expanding His desert domain there, and Morghuar is known to have some sort of obsession with Athel Loren - perhaps because there's a similar and rival power to Him residing there? Possibly Khsar is doing his thing by using the magic flowing into the Karak-Waystone, in which case the Waystones ringing Athel Loren could be meant to cut off the inflow of magic into Athel Loren to make a similar expansion impossible, or at least very slow.
This is the passage I was thinking of, from page 13 of 8th edition Wood Elves.
YN CROMARC WYLDYR, THE WILD HEATH

The Forest of Loren is surrounded by vast tracts of open heath and scrub, where the stunted trees and occasional groves mingle with open stretches o f bracken and heather. Here and there, the vista is broken by standing stones, burial cairns and stone circles. Some of these were built by tribes of Men in remote antiquity; the origins of others are a mystery. Most outward of all are the waystones planted by the first Elves of Athel Loren. Even then, they knew the power of the forest, and sought to contain its fury.

This, then, is the Wild Heath; the landscape that forms the borderland of Athel Loren. It is a boundary ever in motion, with the trees forever straining against the waystone fence that pens them in. On occasion, when summer is at its highest, the trees can even overwhelm the waystones and spill into the lands beyond. When this happens, the Spellsingers and Spellweavers of Athel Loren quickly loose their magics in order to coax the trees back to their proper home. They do this not to save the Bretonnian peasantry of the surrounding lands - though countless lives are doubtless preserved by these actions. Rather, they do it to maintain the tenuous balance by which Athel Loren exists. Though the instinct of the trees is to spread their roots across the world, the Elves seek to preserve the unity from which the forest draws its strength. Were its trees and spirits permitted to roam the world beyond, many would perish. Worse, those that survived would do so only by becoming as cruel and bloodthirsty as the most terrible servants of the Chaos Gods. Thus do the Wood Elves preserve the forest from itself by first preserving outsiders from the forest.
There's quite a few references to Waystones in the book- either about the original fence that the Elven colonists placed around Athel Loren prior to the War of Vengeance and the settlement of the Asrai, or about the one the Asrai since constructed to contain the Wildwood- the prison within Athel Loren where they keep Coeddil and any spirits loyal to him.
 
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Regardless of how difficult High Magic is, I think the more salient point here really is that for people who are capable of High Magic, the enchantment is simple. Which is presumably why despite spreading our waystone model to three different locations this turn, only one of those locations actually needed to call in Eonir wizards:


Qhaysh users are rare, but it seems to me that there's currently enough of them willing to work on millennia-lasting world-cleansing infrastructure that we've yet to scratch the bottom of this barrel.

...Assuming we can bring Athel Loren to the negotiating table, they could theoretically cover the needs of Bretonnia as far as waystones go, and all other Eonir High Mages could presumably focus their attentions on covering the Reik Basin, or at least the highest-Dhar spots - the Drakwald, the Forest of Shadows, Mordheim and I assume Castle Drachenfels.

Could we manage to cover more locations by making a different waystone that didn't require High Magic? Sure. But I don't think that we've yet to reach the point where we need to do that.


Edit: Besides which, the original Golden Age waystones were made in the aftermath of the Coming of Chaos, and needed to cover most of the world. Presumably that's why they chose to go with titan-metal and a dwarf rune - it was far less work than the alternative of enchanting each and every waystone, even though in the long run a number of waystone have been lost because they have a gold-ish looking capstone.

We're only trying to cover the Old World, starting from the worst places. We have much less ground to cover and have more time to do things.
Considering that the Qhaysh enchantment is very simple and only one per Waystone, I don't think it's actually the limiting factor. In terms of economics and politics, a simple Qhaysh enchantment for a functional, high-end waystone is an excellent return on investment and use of the time and effort of your limited pool of archmages.

In terms of what your archmages could be doing with their time, mass producing waystones that are hihgly valuable and very long-lasting to both your own nation and just about every foreign nation on the continent is lucrative. It earns wealth, political/diplomatic goodwill, improves the safety and stability of the continent bit by bit, and builds international ties that can prevent wars and improve economic growth and open future opportunities.

There will probably come a point where archmages and their time will be the limiting factor, but I imagine that will come after we're producing series of waystones for each corrupted hotspot in the Reik Basin and beyond that is within a government's reach. Before that point, the material cost for so many waystones might prove to be the bottleneck.

But until then, even if it might be tedious for the archmages, I doubt they'll be dissatisfied with that tedium being for an extremely greater good that's winning them lots of points/gratitude/compensation for their work. Bonus points for the fact that these archmages are elves, and thus losing years of time on mass producing waystones isn't nearly as much of a loss to them as it would be for human mages, especially given the opportunities it would open up down the line.

There's also the fact that the enchantment is quite simple by High Magic standards, so you wouldn't necessarily need full-fledged archmages to produce it, greatly expanding the available pool of specialist labor.
 
The Elves realised that this magic forest was sentient - like one giant all-encompassing living creatures, and those that it saw as a threat, it would resist.

Seems like if we want to cut a deal with Athel Loren we need to learn how to talk spirits from Cadaeth and Baba, since dealing with the elves would be like dealing with halflings and expecting that to be binding on the empire.
 
Seems like if we want to cut a deal with Athel Loren we need to learn how to talk spirits from Cadaeth and Baba, since dealing with the elves would be like dealing with halflings and expecting that to be binding on the empire.
The thing is that the Elves are the only ones that are even sometimes interested in diplomacy.

The spirits are so isolationist they make the Asrai look like Finubar.
 
The thing is that the Elves are the only ones that are even sometimes interested in diplomacy.

The spirits are so isolationist they make the Asrai look like Finubar.

To be fair, Athel Loren's diplomatic outreach to, engagement and intrigue with Averlorn to manipulate Ulthuan's politics towards the end of the Coming of Chaos and the years shortly afterwards seems to have been pretty sophisticated.
 
Do you think Protector would cause global awareness of one Mathilde Weber wrangling the forces of Order into making the first waystone if we had it equipped at the moment of first prototype assembly?

Or is the danger too low level to be appreciated?
 
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