That's Hatalath, the elf who loves dropping "as we all knows" about things like Old Ones and Albion just to rub it in that nobody else actually does know as much as him. The actual waystone construction chapter was much more direct.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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That is not Rafin said and was not what I was saying either. I was not saying that there are plenty of people who know High Magic, but that the enchantment is easy for anyone who knows even a little bit of it. Note how the first sentence in what you quoted described the Stone as "a single simple enchantment." What Hatalath said and how Mathilde described it match up.
Of course, any mage who knows any bit of High Magic can be said to be highly skilled.
The given cost of components is the money cost. If it requires a specific kind of magic-user, then securing their assistance is a non-monetary amount of effort that varies heavily depending on who's doing it. Something that requires Runesmiths is easy for Dwarves, doable for the Empire, moderately difficult for other human nations, and tricky for Elves. Something that requires Ice Magic is easy for Kislev and tricky for everyone else. Something that requires Wind magic is easy for the Empire and Elves, depends on the Wind for Bretonnia, and tricky for Dwarves and Kislev, and so on. Something that requires High magic is easy for Elves, moderately doable for the Empire (Eonir want to make friends) and Marienburg (who have Ulthuan's backing), and tricky for everyone else. None of this is quantifiable. If it was, it wouldn't be something for the thread to decide, it would be a math problem with one correct answer and Mathilde would just get one of the numerous nerds within arm's reach to crunch the numbers.
(another reason it's given separately is each requirement produces a specific set of bottlenecks, but that's largely unrelated to the debate at hand)
I would be willing to allow that, with the same potential drawback.
For future reference, you should explicitly phrase your questions as questions. I wouldn't have answered the unspoken question here if your later post hadn't made it clear it was intended as one.
It's not a bug, it's a feature. It can't overload because the amount of magic that makes it stops functioning is less than the amount of magic that becomes catastrophic.
(another reason it's given separately is each requirement produces a specific set of bottlenecks, but that's largely unrelated to the debate at hand)
I would be willing to allow that, with the same potential drawback.
For future reference, you should explicitly phrase your questions as questions. I wouldn't have answered the unspoken question here if your later post hadn't made it clear it was intended as one.
It's not a bug, it's a feature. It can't overload because the amount of magic that makes it stops functioning is less than the amount of magic that becomes catastrophic.
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Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
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Regardless of how difficult High Magic is, I think the more salient point here really is that for people who are capable of High Magic, the enchantment is simple. Which is presumably why despite spreading our waystone model to three different locations this turn, only one of those locations actually needed to call in Eonir wizards:
...Assuming we can bring Athel Loren to the negotiating table, they could theoretically cover the needs of Bretonnia as far as waystones go, and all other Eonir High Mages could presumably focus their attentions on covering the Reik Basin, or at least the highest-Dhar spots - the Drakwald, the Forest of Shadows, Mordheim and I assume Castle Drachenfels.
Could we manage to cover more locations by making a different waystone that didn't require High Magic? Sure. But I don't think that we've yet to reach the point where we need to do that.
Edit: Besides which, the original Golden Age waystones were made in the aftermath of the Coming of Chaos, and needed to cover most of the world. Presumably that's why they chose to go with titan-metal and a dwarf rune - it was far less work than the alternative of enchanting each and every waystone, even though in the long run a number of waystone have been lost because they have a gold-ish looking capstone.
We're only trying to cover the Old World, starting from the worst places. We have much less ground to cover and have more time to do things.
Qhaysh users are rare, but it seems to me that there's currently enough of them willing to work on millennia-lasting world-cleansing infrastructure that we've yet to scratch the bottom of this barrel.
...Assuming we can bring Athel Loren to the negotiating table, they could theoretically cover the needs of Bretonnia as far as waystones go, and all other Eonir High Mages could presumably focus their attentions on covering the Reik Basin, or at least the highest-Dhar spots - the Drakwald, the Forest of Shadows, Mordheim and I assume Castle Drachenfels.
Could we manage to cover more locations by making a different waystone that didn't require High Magic? Sure. But I don't think that we've yet to reach the point where we need to do that.
Edit: Besides which, the original Golden Age waystones were made in the aftermath of the Coming of Chaos, and needed to cover most of the world. Presumably that's why they chose to go with titan-metal and a dwarf rune - it was far less work than the alternative of enchanting each and every waystone, even though in the long run a number of waystone have been lost because they have a gold-ish looking capstone.
We're only trying to cover the Old World, starting from the worst places. We have much less ground to cover and have more time to do things.
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The issue there is Athel Loren aren't rational actors and have burned all their bridges by constantly attacking their neighbors. They definitely have a long list of Grudges on file and some equivalent vendettas within the Empire and Bretonnia, so even if they do somehow get onboard, they'll probably need to work exclusively with other elves to keep production agreements from being abruptly cancelled the next time Orion goes for a walk.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Ariel can just put him on a leash, provided proper incentive.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
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- The Destination of Fate
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I'm intentionally being optimistic here. There's like three things that could get them to stop being so aloof and to treat with other nations as equals, sure, but this is one of them.
Besides which, we don't actually know if Orion exists in quest-canon. The details of Athel Loren's religion are understandably not very known.
- Location
- Moscow
It's a very enthusiastic walk.
Athel Loren might be a resource worth tapping for one time trades for magical goodies or knowledge, if we can find something they really want. As a trading partner/participant in the project? Politically, economically, militarily, and culturally unviable. Leave the murder hippies to their murder.
- Location
- Germany
Can she?
The regular Wild Hunts are a very fundamental part of whatever story-logic Orion is running on, just as his death and rebirth.
Maybe Ariel can direct him against Beastmen and other acceptable targets for a few times, but I'm not sure forever.
I don't even think it's some kind of incomprehensible story fey logic in this case, more a lack of proportionality. Some peasant cuts down the wrong tree/plucks the wrong flower, the forest gets mad and the target becomes 'peasants', Orion rampages though Bretonnia. In the hypothetical world where you could keep all humans away from Athel Loren I do not think he would go on a rampage though human lands, but that is just not feasible no matter what the Bretonians do. The best way to deal with the wood elves is to leave them alone... well OK, the best way to deal with the wood elves is to heal Athel Loren so it no longer lashes out like that, but that's not really... achievable.
As I was writing this it occurred to me that Waystones might be part of the solution, less Dhar fewer insane fey, a more quiet forest.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
No way would he fumble a badie like that. Surely he won't want to sleep on the couch.
More seriously, i see no reason why not. But its entirely speculative. I just assume that the worst actual excesses of the faction are curbed, much like the druuchi were. So i think its best to not assume they work entirely like in canon in DL, because honestly they kinda don't make much sense either?
Like, we know that there are villages on borders of athel loren that usually do just fine, and we know that they have several kingdoms, so presumably they are capable of basic cooperation and diplomacy, and can be reasoned with. We won't know until we try.
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
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- He
Given how integral he is to the Asrai religion in canon, that's a strange assumption to make.
MiracleGrow
Miracles for only $19.99 [They/Them]
- Location
- DOOR STUCK DOOR STUCK PLEASE I BEG U
I'm of the opinion that it be possible to get support from the Asarai when it comes to waystones, probably at the cost of setting things up so that the Oak of Ages gets more energy.
But even talking to them would be tremendously difficult. Mathilde would need to get some sort of in-road that does not involve walking into the damn forest. My hopes is that the big ass tree in Karak Eight Peaks (WHICH IS SMACK DAB IN THE MIDDLE OF THE EIGHT PEAKS NETWORK) might get them to send out a feeler of some sort. But that is a LONG fucking shot. Realistically the best option would be bringing in Bretonnia as the Fey Enchantress might have some backroads.
I admit half of this is insane cope cause I played a Wood elf army in tabletop. I like them okay lol
But even talking to them would be tremendously difficult. Mathilde would need to get some sort of in-road that does not involve walking into the damn forest. My hopes is that the big ass tree in Karak Eight Peaks (WHICH IS SMACK DAB IN THE MIDDLE OF THE EIGHT PEAKS NETWORK) might get them to send out a feeler of some sort. But that is a LONG fucking shot. Realistically the best option would be bringing in Bretonnia as the Fey Enchantress might have some backroads.
I admit half of this is insane cope cause I played a Wood elf army in tabletop. I like them okay lol
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ReaperofInterest
Herald of Disaster
Looking back through the Waystone Project, one thing that I'd definitely like to do before calling it complete is figure out how to make Waystones that feed into the Dwarf Network. Even if we don't figure out how to make new Nexuses (Nexi?), supplementing the Dwarves network can only be a good thing, both from the perspective of ensuring that it doesn't run out of power by means of giving the Dwarves a means to supplement it on their own, and from potentially giving the Dwarves the ability to use some of their old stuff again.
If we want to get stones to the wood elves we could design one with no dwarf components and then give to the the Bretonians with the understanding that we wouldn't mind if they dropped the plans down some forest path as long as they don't inform us of the fact.
NexusEye
Aspiring God
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- She/Her
On a pedantic note, we don't necessarily know if Athel Loren is a rational actor because their behavior is strange enough and our knowledge of their mindset insufficiently detailed to infer their utility function, for all we know their behavior of going on Wild Hunts and burning bridges with their neighbors is acceptable if it results in a higher utility according to their utility function. For another example one might consider Chaos as not being a rational actor due to their goal being to end the world but they are rational actors if you assume their utility function values the end of the world as an outcome with a level of utility. Of course then the question becomes "why haven't they organized and easily crushed the forced of Order yet?" which can in turn be explained in a way that still makes them rational actors if each Chaos faction values ending the world in their own preferred fashion over simply ending the world in any manner and are confident they can achieve it eventually even without the cooperation of the other Chaos Gods or are confident they are powerful enough to destroy the world whenever they want and they might as well draw it out so they can do other things aligned with their utility function such as causing the suffering of the mortal inhabitants of the world in such a way that thematically aligns with their nature.
This doesn't necessarily mean the Asrai or Chaos are rational actors, just that they can be depending on their utility function and if their behavior is a best attempt at maximizing it. While utilitarianism and consequentialism are often stereotypically regarded as the most "rational" ethical and normative behavioral systems one could easily argue that both those who adhere to deontological and virtue ethics can be considered rational actors if you treat them as agents who's utility functions value following a set of normative ethical rules or maximizing their adherence to a normative virtue over the good or harm that comes as a result of the consequences of their actions as opposed to consequentialism who's utility function is primarily guided by the result of their actions as opposed to the process behind which they are made. Being a rational actor just means doing a good job at doing things that maximize utility according to their utility function, whether the goal of that utility function itself is rational is making a category error, in the absence of a Platonic provably correct ethical system it is impossible to define whether a utility function is "right" or "wrong" except in relation to your own ethical standards and utility function. Ultimately rationality is about using logic to find the best way of reaching a goal, what that goal is dependent of desires and emotions which are not inherently logical. A paperclip maximizer AI with the goal of maximizing the number of paperclips in existence even if that means disassembling every planet and star into the universe as raw material to turn into paperclips is a rational actor albeit with a psychological alien utility function no sane human would have, a perfectly rational and logical being with no emotions or desires to guide it to wanting to achieve a goal would likely do absolutely nothing or act randomly since its utility function would value doing nothing and doing anything else as the same.
Right, pedantic tangent that may be a mild manifestation of a form of thread madness over, return to your normal posting activities.
- Location
- Who knows?
Boneys done a good job of adding nuance and depth to all the factions, but I don't find it promising that pretty much everyone in story except Laurelorn aka people who haven't heard news in literal millenia kinda wince and start prepping the weapons when they come up. Can't think it's just Dwarfs spreading he hate around.
NexusEye
Aspiring God
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As a (not so) brief aside regarding Waystone Gold I thought of, it may be possible to change the color of pure Waystone Gold capstones as well as the potential Waystone Gold covered Runic inductor hybrid capstones I suggested a while back to make them a less tempting target to those who want to try and steal the capstones for their gold content. While the structure of the alloy that is Waystone Gold, β-Ti₃Au or for a more easily readable name beta titanium-3-gold, is important we don't know how important it is for that specific alloy structure to maintain direct contact with the air around it to function, if it's able to tolerate a very thin layer of non Waystone Gold at its surface while still being able to function we may have options for making both already existing and potential futureWaystone Gold based Waystones less attractive targets by making their capstones not appear gold. The most direct option would be heat treating the surface to cause discoloration by creating a thin layer of oxides on the surface which would cause color change and iridescence due to thin film interference (although the exact science behind it wouldn't be understood at Mathilde's tech level the concept behind metal+heat=differently colored metal should be a well known concept mentioned in her metallurgy books even if the mechanism isn't understood), gold is not amenable to heat treating due to its chemical nonreactiveness titanium is and should form titanium oxides. While this would disrupt the structure of the alloy at the very surface due to the introduction of oxygen and alteration of the alloy's molecular structure making it no longer beta titanium-3-gold but merely titanium-3-gold with some oxygen thrown in this shouldn't be a problem as long as it isn't massively less Wind-conductive to the point of being less conductive than air, as long as it as or more conductive than air there shouldn't be a problem due to normal Waystone Gold capstones sucking Winds from a substance as Wind-conductive as air, namely air.
Alternatively their gold color could be hidden without heat treating by simply applying a layer of metal leaf hammered down to a thickness of microns in a process identical to gilding except with metals other than gold. Doing some quick research some candidate metals that are malleable enough for leafing and should be discovered at this point are copper(reasonably Wind-conductive meaning it shouldn't interfere especially at a low thickness, isn't a precious metal so it shouldn't be nearly as tempting although it does have some value and is used in low value specie, also tarnishes with time due to exposure to air and water and depending on the conductivity of copper patina may be unsuitable in the long-term), silver(unknown Wind-conductivity but presumably some good magical properties since Hataleth wanted it to be used for his reverse-engineered version of the Waystone rune, is still a precious metal and might still tempt thieves if they realize it's silver and not some other silvery metal, also tarnishes so all the potential problems regarding copper tarnishing may also apply to silver as we do not know the Wind-conductivity of silver tarnish) and platinum(if it is valued at the same amount it was in the equivalent period in IRL history it shouldn't be considered precious yet and possess a value that rivals gold instead it should be considered a less valuable metal that to the untrained eye looks like silver but is a knockoff and isn't nearly as valuable, unknown Wind-conductivity, if people mistake it for silver it may have the same problems as silver leafing regarding thieves, doesn't tarnish so as we don't need to worry about its effect as long as its base Wind-conductivity is high enough).
As long as any of these techniques prove viable we may be able to retain the "No Visible Precious Metals" advantage our current Waystones have to any hypothetical new Waystone Gold using Waystone designs as well as potentially modifying Golden Age Waystones to possess the "No Visible Precious Metals" advantage as well.
Alternatively their gold color could be hidden without heat treating by simply applying a layer of metal leaf hammered down to a thickness of microns in a process identical to gilding except with metals other than gold. Doing some quick research some candidate metals that are malleable enough for leafing and should be discovered at this point are copper(reasonably Wind-conductive meaning it shouldn't interfere especially at a low thickness, isn't a precious metal so it shouldn't be nearly as tempting although it does have some value and is used in low value specie, also tarnishes with time due to exposure to air and water and depending on the conductivity of copper patina may be unsuitable in the long-term), silver(unknown Wind-conductivity but presumably some good magical properties since Hataleth wanted it to be used for his reverse-engineered version of the Waystone rune, is still a precious metal and might still tempt thieves if they realize it's silver and not some other silvery metal, also tarnishes so all the potential problems regarding copper tarnishing may also apply to silver as we do not know the Wind-conductivity of silver tarnish) and platinum(if it is valued at the same amount it was in the equivalent period in IRL history it shouldn't be considered precious yet and possess a value that rivals gold instead it should be considered a less valuable metal that to the untrained eye looks like silver but is a knockoff and isn't nearly as valuable, unknown Wind-conductivity, if people mistake it for silver it may have the same problems as silver leafing regarding thieves, doesn't tarnish so as we don't need to worry about its effect as long as its base Wind-conductivity is high enough).
As long as any of these techniques prove viable we may be able to retain the "No Visible Precious Metals" advantage our current Waystones have to any hypothetical new Waystone Gold using Waystone designs as well as potentially modifying Golden Age Waystones to possess the "No Visible Precious Metals" advantage as well.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Oh yeah like, the thing i mean here is after they've been brought to the table.
That's a rather important qualifier. I trust them to keep to a pact. I don't trust them to not be chucklefucks without it.
Its also important to note that unlike Laurelorn, the spirits of Athel Loren are not tamed, and while they frequently march together, they are only nominally the same polity. So whatever agreement is hammered out does not mean that trouble out of Athel Loren stops, it just means it stops being elf flavoured.
It might, be the forest may also be strongly opposed to that, as the elves originally imprisoned Athel Loren in a ring of what seems to be Waystones until after the war with the dwarves they were driven inside.
Athel Loren itself may even be harmed by Waystones, given that they seem to be able to be used to cage it. Presumably a magical forest needs a certain level of ambient magic to survive or a at least be active, so, at least locally rather than globally, Waystones may be a thing it opposes.
Hmm... fair point, we could theoretically build a Dhar Only stone, that does nothing to the winds the forest might like and only takes the stuff that empowers beastmen away.
That does make me wonder how the College Fascis handles Dhar. It has the eight different enchantments for each of the eight different Winds, but presumably if Dhar flows though one of those enchantments it would be the former would be likely to corrupt the later by contact.
If any of the eight single Winds enchantments can safely channel Dhar, that does make me wonder whether it would be possible to make an ultra-cheap version of the component that only drains Dhar from an area without draining the Winds.