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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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MrHobbit said:
What is it that makes you say this? I'm not aware of anything saying that.
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The journeywoman Mathilde Weber led the army that destroyed Drakenhof. Yet on tabletop, only Wizard-Lords can be chosen as Lords of an army. How curious. Its almost as if armybook rules don't translate to narrative.

EDIT: To elucidate further, a Wizard Lord is a Tier 4 spellcaster. As is Lord Mazdamundi. I am sure Algard will be glad that he is as good a caster as second generation Slann. Or Teclis, speaking of that. Do i need to continue further?

EDIT2: To be less spicy, like, maybe i am missing something but until now i have operated under the belief that Archmage is a title and is granted to those who finish the pathway of mastering High Magic. An elf mage that has finished studying the eight winds and starts to learn how to weave Qhaysh is therefore archmage aspirant, and on finishing they stops being just a mage and becomes an Archmage. If that is the wrong kind of fluff, do correct me please.
 
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pucflek said:
The journeywoman Mathilde Weber led the army that destroyed Drakenhof. Yet on tabletop, only Wizard-Lords can be chosen as Lords of an army. How curious. Its almost as if armybook rules don't translate to narrative.
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This doesn't contain a citation though. Where is the citation? Why should we assume Boney decided to ignore the army book in that case? In regards to Mathilde, individual exceptions exist. Under ordinary circumstances, Journeywomen would never command armies. But due to a series of wacky dice rolls, Mathilde got into command. That is not a reason to assert that the army book is wrong. What would be a reason to assert that the army book is wrong is if Boney said that learning High Magic is a requirement to be considered an Archmage, which you have not provided.

Regardless, Boney has said that most mages learn High Magic because they love magic. This was in contrast to Loremasters, who almost never learn it, because it's a lot of work they don't necessarily need to put in. I doubt that most Mages become Archmages. For the same reason most Magisters don't become Lord Magisters.

Boney said:
People who study magic for magic's sake are called Mages, and have the fully plumped out spell lists. People who have an actual end goal in mind (that is within the constraints of what elven culture values) are called Loremasters. Mages almost always seek to learn high magic because they are horny for magic. Loremasters don't unless they absolutely have to, because learning high magic is a shitload of time not spent doing their thing.
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MrHobbit said:
This doesn't contain a citation though. Where is the citation? Why should we assume Boney decided to ignore the army book in that case? In regards to Mathilde, individual exceptions exist. Under ordinary circumstances, Journeywomen would never command armies. But due to a series of wacky dice rolls, including the death of alternative Lord Magisters and generals, Mathilde got into command. That is not a reason to assert that the army book is wrong. What would be a reason to assert that the army book is wrong is if Boney said that learning High Magic is a requirement to be considered an Archmage, which you have not provided.
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Why did a human mage lead dwarven army, i was not aware they could pick generals from different races like that. And from hero pool too.

MrHobbit said:
Regardless, Boney has said that most mages learn High Magic because they love magic. This was in contrast to Loremasters, who almost never learn it, because it's a lot of work they don't necessarily need to put in. I doubt that most Mages become Archmages. For the same reason most Magisters don't become Lord Magisters.
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Loremasters don't master High Magic because they go plus ultra on wind magic, further supporting the thesis that High Magic is not the end all be all of magic. But it does kind of answer the original point i guess. If every mage is an archmage aspirant then that would be a significant enough pool.
 
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BurnNote said:
So? That doesn't actually affect my point. You'll also note that he started being a cool dude before Abelhem died.

And just to be clear, he'd started to be more openminded too. The Morrite recruitment for the army for example, but he'd even reached out for Ranaldians, which is going the extra mile. He wasn't the guy who decided it's best to put the swamp god in charge, but he was already the guy on the journey there, and I think he'd have gotten there either way.

As far as Mathilde was concerned, Sigmar betrayed him too in that whole mess.
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Human beings are mutable, this is a great and terrible thing about them. Just like it's bad idea for humans to worship the elven god of violence, it is possible for it to be bad for the worshipper to worship the god of empire and smiting witches.

There's nothing that stops, say, a Ranaldian from propping up the empire instead of pulling capers all the time. People still get to chose and have a independent characters and are complicated and full of history. Instead, what's at question is what the worship of the god leads you to do.

So no, a reformed zealot who chilled massively after failing to do his job and later became a hermit for years after a crisis of faith is not a good counter-example.
 
pucflek said:
Why did a human mage lead dwarven army, i was not aware they could pick generals from different races like that. And from hero pool too.

Loremasters don't master High Magic because they go plus ultra on wind magic, further supporting the thesis that High Magic is not the end all be all of magic. But it does kind of answer the original point i guess. If every mage is an archmage aspirant then that would be a significant enough pool.
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Are you going to cite a source? Pointing to exceptional circumstances is not evidence that we should ignore the army book in an entirely different section. The magic Lores that mages can draw from is entirely different than the rules regarding who can lead armies. Anyways, I recalled the circumstances wrong. Mathilde was Gustav's senior on the council and could intimidate him. Narfi liked Mathilde and was willing to follow her directives, but he was still the one in charge of Zhufbar's contingent. The tabletop is not meant to simulate extreme exceptions, just the opposite in fact.

You read the citation and paragraph wrong. Mages go Plus Ultra on magic. They learn High Magic because they love magic in general. Loremasters do things other than magic and learn magic to supplement their interests, the 'giant impractical beautiful megaprojects' as Boney put it. One example was a Loremaster who studied magic to raise one of Cothique's sunken cities from under the ocean. What is your source that only Archmages, or Archmage aspirants learn High Magic?

Boney said:
You move to the window facing the town; unlike the arrow slits facing outwards, this was wide enough to present you with an unfettered view. The generals report to Gustav, and you're theoretically Gustav's equal and you've seniority as a councillor over him, and besides that he's always been a bit uneasy around you; you can use that to browbeat him if necessary. Hexensohn would take a wizard's lead over that of a mere horseman. You know Narfi, and Asarnil. You've enough leverage here to push them to do what must be done, and if necessary to take over completely.
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Bucolic said:
Human beings are mutable, this is a great and terrible thing about them. Just like it's bad idea for humans to worship the elven god of violence, it is possible for it to be bad for the worshipper to worship the god of empire and smiting witches.

There's nothing that stops, say, a Ranaldian from propping up the empire instead of pulling capers all the time. People still get to chose and have a independent characters and are complicated and full of history. Instead, what's at question is what the worship of the god leads you to do.

So no, a reformed zealot who chilled massively after failing to do his job and later became a hermit for years after a crisis of faith is not a good counter-example.
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What are you even arguing now? The original claim was that Sigmarites all suck, because they're close minded
Bucolic said:
Sigmarites are generally closed minded and prejudiced on 'screen'. I'm happy to have a trait that's basically 'justify your nonsense' and treats Sigmar like any other god in the empire; regardless of power, evaluated on what the followers do.

It's okay to be antagonistic to people who literally shut doors in your face.
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and I said that's just false, and the example of that we spent the most time with turned out cool, after some development. Does that not count? Well, sure it's lucky there aren't any prominent Ranaldian characters who embezzled and were part of a vampire conspiracy. Oh wait. I that's both of them, I guess we must conclude Ranaldians are all vampire cultists.

Seriously, the argument that all the Sigmarites seem on screen are prejudiced is just false. First, you're leaving out all the counterexamples, like Abelhelm. Second, the prominent ones we see, cause Roswita also counts, both change when given the chance. Which is the opposite of close minded.

Obviously there are asshole sigmarites. Thats a thing about people. Done of them are assholes, and that applies to just about any group.

But claiming Sigmarites are generally prejudiced is itself kinda prejudiced cause it's not really substatiated. But worst of all, it's even irrelevant because that's not what the trait is about.
 
MrHobbit said:
Are you going to cite a source? Pointing to exceptional circumstances is not evidence that we should ignore the army book in an entirely different section. The magic Lores that mages can draw from is entirely different than the rules regarding who can lead armies. Anyways, I recalled the circumstances wrong. Mathilde was Gustav's senior on the council and could intimidate him. Narfi liked Mathilde and was willing to follow her directives, but he was still the one in charge of Zhufbar's contingent. The tabletop is not meant to simulate extreme exceptions, just the opposite in fact.
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Okay, so i combed through every mention of Archmage by Boney in quest, and i went through armybooks 6 to 8 and i have arrived at the point where i starded and that's that we have no idea what Archmage even really means. I thought it was a title granted for mastering High Magic but nowhere does it say that except in Wiki fluff up that has no real source. An Elven Mage and Archmage is a distinction of Hero and Lord, and no such distinction exists for the narrative. Like, how does Archmage gain that title? An elven one i mean, Mathilde got called that one because it was closest equivalent.

Is an Archmage just a Mage that has taken up leadership? Is it the skill at High Magic, is it generally skill? I fucking dunno, and nowhere in the books does it say. Like yeah, sure, a Mage and Archmage can both pick spells from lore of high magic. Fucking yay. What's the difference between them? Like what got one of them the big hat?


MrHobbit said:
You read the citation and paragraph wrong. Mages go Plus Ultra on magic. They learn High Magic because they love magic in general. Loremasters do things other than magic and learn magic to supplement their interests, the 'giant impractical beautiful megaprojects' as Boney put it. One example was a Loremaster who studied magic to raise one of Cothique's sunken cities from under the ocean. What is your source that only Archmages, or Archmage aspirants learn High Magic?
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I did not, they seek enlightenment in winds, not high magic, which is what i meant by going plus ultra on winds.

EDIT: I can actually provide the source for that one
Boney said:
They don't have a single monolithic magical tradition. What you seem to be thinking of as the 'standard' Elven magic-user is actually a product of Saphery's foremost tradition, but alongside their Mages and Archmages they also produce Loremasters, magic-users who seek enlightenment within the framework of the Winds, not High Magic.
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Which brings me back to.... What the fuck is the difference between Mage and Archmage if not ability to cast High Magic? Is it really as simple as leading an army at least once?
 
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BurnNote said:
What are you even arguing now? The original claim was that Sigmarites all suck, because they're close minded

and I said that's just false, and the example of that we spent the most time with turned out cool, after some development. Does that not count? Well, sure it's lucky there aren't any prominent Ranaldian characters who embezzled and were part of a vampire conspiracy. Oh wait. I that's both of them, I guess we must conclude Ranaldians are all vampire cultists.

Seriously, the argument that all the Sigmarites seem on screen are prejudiced is just false. First, you're leaving out all the counterexamples, like Abelhelm. Second, the prominent ones we see, cause Roswita also counts, both change when given the chance. Which is the opposite of close minded.

Obviously there are asshole sigmarites. Thats a thing about people. Done of them are assholes, and that applies to just about any group.

But claiming Sigmarites are generally prejudiced is itself kinda prejudiced cause it's not really substatiated. But worst of all, it's even irrelevant because that's not what the trait is about.
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Personally, if I were trying to argue against Sigmaritism being a problems, I would not bring up someone who fired Mathilde out of bigotry.

Beyond that, when I use 'generally' and 'leads' and you argue about 'all' I have to just shrug and assume we're not actually having a discussion.
 
pucflek said:
Okay, so i combed through every mention of Archmage by Boney in quest, and i went through armybooks 6 to 8 and i have arrived at the point where i starded and that's that we have no idea what Archmage even really means. I thought it was a title granted for mastering High Magic but nowhere does it say that except in Wiki fluff up that has no real source. An Elven Mage and Archmage is a distinction of Hero and Lord, and no such distinction exists for the narrative. Like, how does Archmage gain that title? An elven one i mean, Mathilde got called that one because it was closest equivalent.

Is an Archmage just a Mage that has taken up leadership? Is it the skill at High Magic, is it generally skill? I fucking dunno, and nowhere in the books does it say. Like yeah, sure, a Mage and Archmage can both pick spells from lore of high magic. Fucking yay. What's the difference between them? Like what got one of them the big hat?

I did not, they seek enlightenment in winds, not high magic, which is what i meant by going plus ultra on winds.

EDIT: I can actually provide the source for that one

Which brings me back to.... What the fuck is the difference between Mage and Archmage if not ability to cast High Magic? Is it really as simple as leading an army at least once?
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What's the difference between a Lord Magister and a Magister? It consists of factors like skill, political influence, ect. An Archmage is an elven mage who has been recognized to have been one of the best wielders of magic among the elves. That's why only archmages (and enchanters as skilled as Von Tarnus) can make the reverse-engineered storage component. The reverse-engineered storage doesn't consist of high magic, it is just so fiendishly complex that you need a mage who understands enchanting deep enough that it can process other winds despite only using one wind and being an absolute hodgepodge that only the most experienced enchanters have the understanding to reproduce. Like what Von Tarnus achieved with the Staff of Volans, except even more complex. That's why I am confident that Prophetesses can make the reverse-engineered storage too; they can all use multiple winds. So their enchanting tradition has to have included using winds to create wind-neutral objects.

I haven't read or watched MHA, but isn't Plus Ultra about going above and beyond in heroism selflessly, for the sake of heroism itself? I got that through osmosis, so I could absolutely be wrong. But Loremasters don't seek enlightenment for the sake of it. They want enlightenment so they can do something with it. Mages study magic for the sake of it, but in hindsight it doesn't have the selfless part. So neither side of the Sapherian magical tradition really fits what my understanding of Plus Ultra is. Could be wrong though. I should have been elaborated more though and not let my frustration slip though. I apologize for that.
 
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For Mages vs Archmages, I went looking, and I think Sarvoi can use High Magic (he's capable of creating Dhar from the ambient Winds, which reflects some level of multi-wind use at least) and is not AFAICT an Archmage.
 
BurnNote said:
What are you even arguing now? The original claim was that Sigmarites all suck, because they're close minded

and I said that's just false, and the example of that we spent the most time with turned out cool, after some development. Does that not count? Well, sure it's lucky there aren't any prominent Ranaldian characters who embezzled and were part of a vampire conspiracy. Oh wait. I that's both of them, I guess we must conclude Ranaldians are all vampire cultists.

Seriously, the argument that all the Sigmarites seem on screen are prejudiced is just false. First, you're leaving out all the counterexamples, like Abelhelm. Second, the prominent ones we see, cause Roswita also counts, both change when given the chance. Which is the opposite of close minded.

Obviously there are asshole sigmarites. Thats a thing about people. Done of them are assholes, and that applies to just about any group.

But claiming Sigmarites are generally prejudiced is itself kinda prejudiced cause it's not really substatiated. But worst of all, it's even irrelevant because that's not what the trait is about.
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All Sigmarites are not closed minded peasants who would burn an imperial wizard as soon as look at them... just most of them. :V

More seriously though, the problem is that in Sigmarite theology wizards do not have an easy out.
  • If you are a Taalite you can at least appreciate how much the Jades and Ambers respect nature and fight beastmen.
  • If you are an Ulrican you can appreciate a wizard who fights skillfully and with honor
  • If you are a Ranaldite... shadow magic is just your jam
  • If you are a Shaylan not only do you have to show mercy healing magic is neat...
Sigmar does have an out 'if a wizard serves the Empire they are one of the good ones'. But the reason this doesn't stick is because the implication is 'the Empire would be worse off without these wizards that Sigmar told us are cursed'. That is an indictment against every Sigmarite that accepts it. Because they failed to protect the empire on their own it (and thus Sigmar) must accept the hated wizards.
 
pucflek said:
Snip
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I also thought Archmage was a synonym for Qaysh-user, but upon close reading it doesn't seem to be the case.

I think the title of Archmage is simply a recognition of the exceptional abilities of a mage, in raw power as well as in versatility. My theory is that the proportion of Qaysh-using Mages who are also Archmages is higher than the norm for elvish mages, simply because learning High Magic requires by definition extreme dedication and talent. In addition to that, High magic is also more powerful and versatile than mono-Wind magic.

MrHobbit said:
That's why I am confident that Prophetesses can make the reverse-engineered storage too; they can all use multiple winds. So their enchanting tradition has to have included using winds to create wind-neutral objects.
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Tbf, the fact they can use 3 Winds is likely due to divine intervention, not skill.
 
K von Carstein said:
Tbf, the fact they can use 3 Winds is likely due to divine intervention, not skill.
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It may also be that they don't wield 3 winds at all in DL cannon, it could be that they wield one lore of magic that can do similar things to 3 of the winds. It would make them more like the ice witches if that was the case.

Thankful the thing which currently requires an archmage level enchanter will eventually become far easier to do. Especially if we give it a little bit before we design a new waystone. Once the 3 areas getting waystones currently have had more built the fiendishly complex enchantment will likely become far easier. We should probably wait to see exactly how easy before building the cheap, easy to manfactor waystone that's being talked about.
 
French Cowboy said:
It may also be that they don't wield 3 winds at all in DL cannon, it could be that they wield one lore of magic that can do similar things to 3 of the winds. It would make them more like the ice witches if that was the case.
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I don't think so, that is something you would be able to tell with magesight even from across the battlefield in one of the Pavaron Wars. It's one thing to be confused on is the same pretty lady that just threw an amber spear after making the trees walk, it is another to somehow not notice if there is less Ghyan or not after that last spell when you yourself are a Jade Wizard.
 
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This is the only in-quest description of Bretonnian magic we have so far:

Boney said:
That explained the woman with the very odd combination of magics intertwined inside her and an outfit barely within the constraints of decency. "Kislev or Bretonnia?" you ask, nodding in her direction.

"Bretonnia, I assume. The Kislevite ambassador has requested transcripts, as their lot are still occupied with their Ogre problem."
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deathofrats0808 said:
For Mages vs Archmages, I went looking, and I think Sarvoi can use High Magic (he's capable of creating Dhar from the ambient Winds, which reflects some level of multi-wind use at least) and is not AFAICT an Archmage.
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Sarvoi is either an archmage or of equivalent skill. During the negotiations, he was stated to be House Tindomiel's foremost expert in magical theory. He was the counterpart to House Tindomiel's foremost enchanter, who created the storage for the prototype waystone. They had the same cost too. He might not be able to make the storage, but on the chance he can't, he's probably going to be able to do it a lot sooner than most other people.

K von Carstein said:
Tbf, the fact they can use 3 Winds is likely due to divine intervention, not skill.
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That doesn't mean their enchanting tradition wouldn't have a significant history of using multi-wind enchantments. But you shouldn't denigrate their skill. The intervention from the Lady might make them capable of wielding multiple winds. But actually wielding them speaks positively of the capabilities of their magic tradition.

French Cowboy said:
It may also be that they don't wield 3 winds at all in DL cannon, it could be that they wield one lore of magic that can do similar things to 3 of the winds. It would make them more like the ice witches if that was the case.
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Boney has said that Mathilde believes that they use multiple winds, and suspects that they might even use more than the three Lores they have access to on the tabletop.

Boney said:
Don't the bretonnians only use 3 of the winds? So is Mathilde being overly paranoid here or can it be replicated with less than the full set of 8?
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Them being know for three particular types of magic is not the same as them being guaranteed to be completely incapable of ever doing anything at all with the others.
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deathofrats0808 said:
For Mages vs Archmages, I went looking, and I think Sarvoi can use High Magic (he's capable of creating Dhar from the ambient Winds, which reflects some level of multi-wind use at least) and is not AFAICT an Archmage.
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Creating Dhar from ambient Winds is extremely easy and wouldn't take any particular level of skill - College Apprentices have to be taught to not attract more than one Wind because it's that easy to accidentally create Dhar.

But I assume Sarvoi can use High Magic due to being his House's top theorist (and presumably said theorizing would involve Qhaysh given that they're a magic house).

...Frankly, Archmage is probably a somewhat arbitrary title to translate to Reikspiel, given how Eltharin is a confusing mess where every word has three or more usually-contradicting meanings.
 
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Even Mathilde, whose windsight is world-class, can only detect the presence of divine energy without discerning its function or the identity of the god behind it. If the Lady is, for instance, using her divine power to partition multiple Winds within the souls of her Damsels, that would be identifiable. But just as the Widow is transforming Winds from the leylines into something entirely different and unidentifiable to traditional theory, it could be the Lady has created some new magical substance that can simultaneously function as whichever Wind the caster desires, or actually turn back into Winds from the undifferentiated substance on command.
 
Orbmorb said:
And because he's horny for magic
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Nodding

And because he's horny for magic.

Natch said:
Even Mathilde, whose windsight is world-class, can only detect the presence of divine energy without discerning its function or the identity of the god behind it. If the Lady is, for instance, using her divine power to partition multiple Winds within the souls of her Damsels, that would be identifiable. But just as the Widow is transforming Winds from the leylines into something entirely different and unidentifiable to traditional theory, it could be the Lady has created some new magical substance that can simultaneously function as whichever Wind the caster desires, or actually turn back into Winds from the undifferentiated substance on command.
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Personally, my bet is on the Lady's energies 'only' letting them wield different Winds at different times with little-to-no chance of Arcane Marks, but a still-equal chance of miscasts. So in-between casts the Lady's energies act as a sort of neutralizer, and they still have to draw from the ambient Winds to cast spells. And this may carry the downside that in an extended battle they'll run out of spells faster than a normal College mage.
 
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