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All this talking about what happened in Stirland/Sylvania makes me wonder if we can poke around in the tunnels where Hexensohn disappeared.
He didn't disappear, he died. Whatever he found and tried to deal with, it killed him and left his two battle wizards to carry his body out of there. Alric tried to poke around there but was shooed away by the Magister Patriarch of the Gold Order.

Poking around there would be dangerous and unnecessary.
 
He didn't disappear, he died. Whatever he found and tried to deal with, it killed him and left his two battle wizards to carry his body out of there. Alric tried to poke around there but was shooed away by the Magister Patriarch of the Gold Order.

Poking around there would be dangerous and unnecessary.
I was about to make a post about how we don't know if he was truly killed or merely incapacitated enough to not be able to fulfill his role as Magister Patriarch anymore but I did some searching to support my argument and found a couple of bits of text I'd either missed or forgotten and didn't expect to find, ones that mention Hexensohn is "late" and therefore imply he'd dead, one of them from Algard.
Text supporting an ambiguous fate for Hexensohn:
Hexensohn had gone in, but hadn't come out. Eventually his Battle Wizards had followed after him, and then come out again carrying their Patriarch, who was deathly pale and quite possibly dead - none of the men got a good enough look to tell.
Elspeth von Draken probably could if she wanted to, but she only took up leadership of the Amethyst after whatever happened to Hexensohn and there were no better candidates.
she stepped up as Magister Matriarch largely because there wasn't anyone else suitable after Hexensohn's..." he pauses for a fraction of a second, eyes darting over to you, "unfortunate fate.
Text supporting Hexensohn being dead:
Did you ever discover what it was that the late Hexensohn was looking for?"
You hear of him trying to insert himself into the Sylvania situation and being politely but firmly evicted after he demonstrates he's more interested in digging into the fate of the late Magister Patriarch Hexensohn

What exactly happened to him seems to be a mystery but there is evidence suggesting he is indeed dead. However there are oddities such as Algard calling him "late" early in our career but once we became Lord Magister he called it an "unfortunate fate" which could indicate that his being dead is a cover story but something horrible and incapacitating did happen to him and we were now high enough clearance that he could hint at the truth in our presence, or it could just be a turn of phrase. In addition later of Mathilde herself refers to Hexensohn as "late" indicating she believes he's dead. So there are two possibilities

  1. He's dead but the circumstances of his death or thing that would later cause his non-immediate death are classified or taboo to discuss and remain a mystery.
  2. He's alive but for whatever reason the official story is that he's dead and even Mathilde believes it at this point in time, she might have the clearance level to learn the truth of the matter (though not the details since even Alaric wasn't given that) if she were to dig into that matter with a decent reason but thus far she hasn't, and if he's not dead he still experienced something that made him unfit to continue as Magister Patriarch and while not dead was still horrible and possibly a fate worse than death.
There's a not unreasonable case to be made he might still be alive but given the available evidence I've reversed the view I had a mere 15 minutes ago and am leaning towards dead, and even if he isn't he may as well be considering whatever happened to him.
 
I had thought he was looking for the lLiber Mortis, so I am not sure what might actually be down there. Another internal vampire prison? It would be darkly hilarious if Sylvanians experienced a change in the nobles ruling them about as often as Stirlanders, but instead of dying they just had all the old nobles locked up in the basement.
 
Question: the part where Abelhelm was mortally wounded and Kasmir tried to get a healing spell but nothing happened (twice)--what could cause that, in-story, other than Sigmar deciding to let one of his devoted and important agents die an easily preventable death? Does Mathilde know if a dhar-corrupted environment can hamper divine spellcasting? Or Sunscryer's massive miscast--can events like that screw up spellcasting in the area for a time?

If you want to leave it completely ambiguous, that's a valid answer too, though it does raise the question voiced by Kasmir and pondered by Mathilde: why would Sigmar reliably answer Kasmir's prayers for healing throughout Sylvania when needed except when needed most (twice in a row)?

'Why do bad things happen to good people' is still an entire genre of theological debate in the setting and you're unlikely to get a satisfying answer to it, but apart from the several directions interference could have come from, Sigmar apologia could point to the Roswita's successes, and the successes of the Karak Eight Peaks campaign, as direct consequences of Abelhelm's death. And it can be argued that there's only so many times you can revive a soldier and throw him back into the battle until it stops being a kindness.
 
'Why do bad things happen to good people' is still an entire genre of theological debate in the setting and you're unlikely to get a satisfying answer to it, but apart from the several directions interference could have come from, Sigmar apologia could point to the Roswita's successes, and the successes of the Karak Eight Peaks campaign, as direct consequences of Abelhelm's death. And it can be argued that there's only so many times you can revive a soldier and throw him back into the battle until it stops being a kindness.
"Why do bad things happen to good people" is probably a much smaller and less complicated and philosophical genre of theological debate than in the real world though as it is does not have a focus on trying to reconcile the problem of evil with an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God of the Abrahamic variety given that gods in this setting are not omniscient(Sigmar may have been distracted by something else at the time), omnipotent(Sigmar may have had bigger stuff on his plate at the moment and had to prioritize, or omnibenevolent(Sigamrites may dispute this but that seems to be the explanation Mathilde is going with). And there are explicitly evil gods who are stronger than individuals non-evil gods so the explanation for "why did Sigmar let [some beloved family member] die?" could be the Chaos Gods did it, either indirectly because Tzeentch manipulated fate to make him trip down nine flights of stairs because they thought it would be funny and Sigmar wasn't powerful enough to stop them or more directly because a Champion of Khorne chopped his head off and Sigmar was busy doing other miracles to stop other peoples heads being chopped off and didn't have enough spare power to save [some beloved family member].

And the first potential argument you provided is a pretty good one, Rosita did achieve success despite not being her father so no large net loss there, the K8P expedition likely wouldn't have gathered as much forces particularly Mathilde which allowed it to achieve the success it did, and if you dig even deeper you could attribute the Return of Karak Vlag as being indirectly caused by Abelhelm's death and to go even further the Waystone project as traceable to his death and if you know about it, the solving of the Dwarven energy crisis through the reclamation of K8P, Return of Vlag, and reconnection of Dum through Vlag and saving the Dwarven race from an imminent extinction as ultimately caused by Abelhelm's death. It all really fits and has thematic resonance with the Conversations You Can Never Have omake even if from a Doylist perspective we know it was all a series of coincidences. The second argument is a bit flimsier though, there may be a point where reviving a soldier again and again to throw them into battle is no longer a kindness but presumably that number is greater than one unless that battle is quite literally hellish.
 
"Why do bad things happen to good people" is probably a much smaller and less complicated and philosophical genre of theological debate than in the real world though as it is does not have a focus on trying to reconcile the problem of evil with an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God of the Abrahamic variety given that gods in this setting are not omniscient(Sigmar may have been distracted by something else at the time), omnipotent(Sigmar may have had bigger stuff on his plate at the moment and had to prioritize, or omnibenevolent(Sigamrites may dispute this but that seems to be the explanation Mathilde is going with). And there are explicitly evil gods who are stronger than individuals non-evil gods so the explanation for "why did Sigmar let [some beloved family member] die?" could be the Chaos Gods did it, either indirectly because Tzeentch manipulated fate to make him trip down nine flights of stairs because they thought it would be funny and Sigmar wasn't powerful enough to stop them or more directly because a Champion of Khorne chopped his head off and Sigmar was busy doing other miracles to stop other peoples heads being chopped off and didn't have enough spare power to save [some beloved family member].

Oh, absolutely a very different debate, but still an existing one. There's a long list of possible problems at any given time and it's rarely practical to even begin figuring out who's to blame for a given lack of miracle. Cults tend to try to encourage people to treat no miracles as the default and be thankful for what miracles they do get, rather than expecting miracles and getting upset about when they don't.

The second argument is a bit flimsier though, there may be a point where reviving a soldier again and again to throw them into battle is no longer a kindness but presumably that number is greater than one unless that battle is quite literally hellish.

A Vampire Hunter doesn't Vampire Hunt enough Vampires to be made Boss of Vampire Place without having gone through some shit.
 
@Boney since Realms of Sorcery uses its ritual creation rules for its magic item creation rules, does that mean Mathilde has a chance of dying every time she creates a magic item?


I found the culprit for the DPG's Rule of Pride. Stone and Steel, page 57:

Temporary runes also originate in Stone and Steel. Also wow, Stone and Steel and 2e's Realms of Sorcery came out pretty close together: 2002 and 2005, respectively.

Altdorf - Crown of the Empire, page 19
Rungni Garilsson, Karak Norn Ambassador
The destruction of Bugman's Brewery, near Wusterburg in Wissenland, has made Rungni Garilsson perhaps the most important Dwarf in Altdorf. As a member of the Bugman brewing clan, he relishes that prominence. Rungni's ability to ensure a steady flow of Bugman's ales from the family brewery in Karak Norn to the Imperial Palace affords the plain-speaking, genial ambassador an audience with Karl-Franz whenever his hold's business requires.
Well this is a pretty prosaic explanation for why there's always more Bugman's - the clan still exists in Karak Norn and they keep brewing more.

Page 164
Sapherian Loremasters understand the Old Ones' geomantic web: an ancient gridwork of magical ley lines that stabilises planetary weather, orbit, and rotation. Altdorf is a major nexus point on the web.
This is some pretty important lore that's tucked away in an adventure hook.
 
A Vampire Hunter doesn't Vampire Hunt enough Vampires to be made Boss of Vampire Place without having gone through some shit.
I guess I didn't consider the fact that he had an extensive career before Mathilde met him and was presumably save by Sigmar several times, its just that the final time when he wasn't saved by Sigmar was also the only one Mathilde was present for meaning from her point of view Sigmar's success rate for saving Abelhelm is 0%. And considering his daughter was repeatedly almost killed by Alkharad, was burning through her Greatswords, and fully expected to die before Mathilde came along and brought the best kind of good news to her, Sigmar may have been sparing Abelhelm from a perceived future of misery in favor of passing it along to his daughter, albeit a future we thankfully prevented from coming to full fruition via application of Runic Dwarven Greatsword to Ancient Vampire Neck.
 
@Boney since Realms of Sorcery uses its ritual creation rules for its magic item creation rules, does that mean Mathilde has a chance of dying every time she creates a magic item?

I don't use those rules for DL enchantment. She risks badness, but the way I do it is more that enchantment can lead to something similar to miscast which can compound really high if you get absurdly unlucky.

I found the culprit for the DPG's Rule of Pride. Stone and Steel, page 57:

Temporary runes also originate in Stone and Steel. Also wow, Stone and Steel and 2e's Realms of Sorcery came out pretty close together: 2002 and 2005, respectively.

WFRP 1e went from 1986 to 2004, so it started in the heavy weirdness zone of 2nd Edition WFB but was still publishing after 6th Edition was well established. That's why Sold Down The River and Stone and Steel are still so influential - they were published late enough that even though you get the 1e weirdness in them, the lore is some of the most recent and detailed we have for some parts of the setting.
 
Sigmar may have been sparing Abelhelm from a perceived future of misery in favor of passing it along to his daughter, albeit a future we thankfully prevented from coming to full fruition via application of Runic Dwarven Greatsword to Ancient Vampire Neck.
And using an immensely powerful runic weapon gifted to you by the dwarves to single-handedly kill the ancient undead sorcerer who was behind it all is, ironically, the most Sigmar-like way to solve a a problem.
 
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I have hard time imagining how Abelheim surviving would have made the world a better place, compared to him dying, and sending Mathilde on the trajectory she has taken.
It's not impossible, but seems very unlikely.
And i suspect, given a choice, he would agree.
Him dying leading to Sylvania being cleansed, 2 dwarf holds reclaimed, waystone network strengthened...
I think he would agree any one of those would be worth dying for (waystones might need some explaining first).

Though more likely explanation for me is that Sigmar is not omnipotent, Kasimir is capable of failing at times of stress, and Abelheim was pretty far gone, so sometimes shit just happens.
 
I have hard time imagining how Abelheim surviving would have made the world a better place, compared to him dying, and sending Mathilde on the trajectory she has taken.
It's not impossible, but seems very unlikely.
And i suspect, given a choice, he would agree.
Him dying leading to Sylvania being cleansed, 2 dwarf holds reclaimed, waystone network strengthened...
I think he would agree any one of those would be worth dying for (waystones might need some explaining first).

Though more likely explanation for me is that Sigmar is not omnipotent, Kasimir is capable of failing at times of stress, and Abelheim was pretty far gone, so sometimes shit just happens.
You might have a hard time imagining it but that might be hindsight talking, we would have had just as much difficulty imagining a future where we accomplished as much good as we did at the point in time after we destroyed Castle Drakenhof with Abelhelm dead as we would have had imagining a similarly spectacular future in a timeline where Castle Drakenhof was destroyed but Abelhelm lived. We're talking about extremely low probablility scenarios' here bordering on being unlikely enough to be negligible except it clearly isn't negligible considering it actually happened. With numbers so small it's hard to calculate whether the probability of such good being done was increased or decreased by Abelhelm's death. Even if Abelhelm's survival would have decreased Mathilde's chance of achieving great things it would have given Abelhelm a chance to accomplish great things too, potentially greater than Roswita did, and as long as the combined accomplishments of Alternate-Alive!Abelhelm and Alternate!Mathilde exceeded that of Our-Timeline!Mathilde that would have been a better timeline. We simply don't know and will almost certainly never know.
 
You might have a hard time imagining it but that might be hindsight talking, we would have had just as much difficulty imagining a future where we accomplished as much good as we did at the point in time after we destroyed Castle Drakenhof with Abelhelm dead as we would have had imagining a similarly spectacular future in a timeline where Castle Drakenhof was destroyed but Abelhelm lived. We're talking about extremely low probablility scenarios' here bordering on being unlikely enough to be negligible except it clearly isn't negligible considering it actually happened. With numbers so small it's hard to calculate whether the probability of such good being done was increased or decreased by Abelhelm's death. Even if Abelhelm's survival would have decreased Mathilde's chance of achieving great things it would have given Abelhelm a chance to accomplish great things too, potentially greater than Roswita did, and as long as the combined accomplishments of Alternate-Alive!Abelhelm and Alternate!Mathilde exceeded that of Our-Timeline!Mathilde that would have been a better timeline. We simply don't know and will almost certainly never know.
Yes, it is hindsight, obviously.
But we are talking about hypothetical motivations of a god.
If one assumes that Sigmar is capable of either seeing the future (however limitedly), or asking questions of those who do, the hindsight may not be necessary.
Also, that was one potential explanation a worshipper like Kasimir might reach in hindsight.
 
Huh, I wonder if Boney got the idea for Karag Dum's "runemasters" from 1e's Realms of Sorcery. There, you have "rune masters" who are crappy knock-off human runesmiths with a smattering of runelore descended from a guy called Dortmund Klauser, who either tortured a runesmith for his lore or got taught it for saving his life.
 
The situation is rather different when afterlife provably exists.
There are people who choose cessation of being even when there isn't one.

The blanket statement of "death is awful" ignores that life doesn't really have to be kinder than that.

Im just voice this disagreement with Paradox and leave it at that, its really not something that would lead to productive discussion i feel.
 
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With regards to humans and high magic, it seems like a way to go mad with dhar poisoning with extra steps. Or possibly just the same first step: 'surely I am different snd special and awesome enough that it will never happen to me'.
 
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The situation is rather different when afterlife provably exists.

It is still a separation from everyone you know and love, people still cry at funerals in Warhammer and one can reasonably infer that the dead are just as mournful of the loss. Plus there is no guarantee he would even make it there. Death sucks less in Warhammer fantasy, it still sucks.

There are people who choose cessation of being even when there isn't one.

The blanket statement of "death is awful" ignores that life doesn't really have to be kinder than that.

That is a whole 'nother conversation that has to do with the quality of life. I was talking about death as in 'mortality itself', the thing that doctors fight when they spread life saving and ultimately life prolonging medicines and treatments on a wide scale.
 
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It is still a separation from everyone you know and love, people still cry at funerals in Warhammer and one can reasonably infer that the dead are just as mournful of the loss. Plus there is no guarantee he would even make it there. Death sucks less in Warhammer fantasy, it still sucks.
So is going to the toilet without a cellphone.
Existing afterlife completely changes things.
 
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