Only if everyone gets there which they do not.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Only if everyone gets there which they do not.
People get over separations, and there are few guarantees to anything, but making it to the afterlife seems like a pretty high confidence thing.
- Location
- Finland
Only if something goes horribly wrong.
Like having a heart attack at the toilet.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
It is not another conversation because it is directly related to the specific death of specific individual who has seen "some shit". You can't say death is not a rest and then try to divorce it from the relative comparison/context it has been made to.
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consequences
Not A Nice Person At All
- Location
- Jerkville
Clearly Sigmar, having seen the man's family shoulder an impossible burden for hundreds of years, accomplish an impossible task in his lifetime, and thread the needle of an impossible choice regarding the Empress should have rewarded his effort and accomplishment and sacrifice by throwing him at something else so it never ends.
Fair, I do not think Abel had seen anything near that much shit, he did not strike me as tired of life, more optimistic than anything right up until the end.
I mean... *looks at the combined efforts of Chaos and Nagash to use souls to their own ends* I think it's a bit more common than that.
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pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
I don't know. I think he would've seen everything through, but whetever because that was inherent taste for life or because he poured his self into a mold forged by millenium of inherited guilt i do not know. I am just not going to make definite statements contrary to it when QM said its a valid look on things.
For all we know Alkharad would've gored him and then taken over Stirland because his spymistress did not have cool belt, sword and healing artifact to take on that particular horror and his life would've been for naught.
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- Location
- Finland
Now, i can't say how much shit exactly he has seen, but
Makes me think quite a bit.
That he had not been completely worn down by it, does not mean that he might not, at the end, choose to give it a rest once he was facing the gates of Mor having basicly succeeded at the duty his family had been working on for generations.
edit-
I would say that counts as things going horrible wrong.
Also, vast majority of people don't end up like that, there's a whole religion (several), and several more religious orders, to make sure of that.
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Given how much work Rowita had yet to do and how the odds were stacked against her I don't think he would have seen it like that, but that's beside my point, namely that I think he genuinely enjoyed his new life as an elector count, he had friends he could trust, a purpose to follow and it was all coming together. He wasn't just expunging guilt he was making for more healthy children and prosperous people.
- Location
- Finland
And he had been doing all those things for couple decades by that point, he had basicly won, let the man retire.
Because there is always, always, going to be more to do.
I agree, but there is a difference between 'not the vast majority' and 'heart attack on the toilet odds'. A significant proportion of people don't get in
- Location
- Finland
But most do.
There generally is no real expectation to not get to ther afterlife for most people.
The same way you generally do not expect someone you know to randomly die between meetings unless they are mortally ill.
But shit happens anyway.
I do not think he was anywhere near that point but at this point we are comparing vibes. Your interpretation is fair, it was just the idea of Sigmar saying it that I disliked.
- Location
- Finland
And Sigmar saying it would almost certainly have much better view on what exactly isgoing on, and how much shit Abelheim had been through, than either of us.
- Location
- Greece
I do not like the explanation of Sigmar doing this cuz he could predict how everything would go, it implies too many of Mathilde's choices were predetermined.
I don't think so, gods in warhammer don't have access to people's brains like that unless it's their own worshipers and even that's a maybe. If they could read even their priests minds consistently Nagash would have never gotten the chance to become Nagash.
- Location
- Finland
Sigmar is, you know, Sigmar, the god Kasimir worships, god that Abelheim probably had at least some interaction with (you know, with all the healing), even if he was not a devout Sigmarite (i don't remember if he was or not), the person who would know much better than either of us the ins and outs of souls and afterlife, and whaat/why Sigmar does things.
Also Sigmar would, at that point, have an option of talking it out with Abelheim.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
I mean, define predetermined. Skarshnik was predetermined to become a menace too.
(But yeah i doubt he can actually take credit for it even in-universe).
He actually had crisis of faith iirc. Mathilde has that effect on people she works with
- Location
- Finland
Unfortunately, ability to predict things is a canonical power available to gods and men.
Though even then i would epxect it was playing with the odds.
Ranald: "Someone call?"
- Location
- Greece
Being special enough to become a menace is one thing. It implies some degree of fate, maybe, but not complete determinism. Complete determinism is a trick of Tzeench.
The whole series of event the thread attributes to Sigmar requires Mathilde takling several choices that came to a vote, heck, several that came to a CLOSE vote. What if we sabotaged Roswita when it came to returning stuff? never went to K8P? What if we didn't spend Dawi favour for rune bling? What if we didn't take the right decision to end the war so quickly? (You can argue we would still win it eventually, but that throws our help to Roswita and Dum expedition out of whack). What if we didn't choose to help Roswita out of grudge? What if we never thought about the tower of Gazul? (I'll give the improbable dice rolls a pass as god predicted). Heck, even if there is a degree of determinism, what if we died in the several cases where gods stronger than or at least equal to Sigmar were involved with our adventures?
Edit:
Some degree of predictive ability is easy with a crow's eye view, a greater than human at processing information brain or equivalent and good bluffing or stacking of odds. It does not imply the level of determinism this sequence of events had.
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pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
It doesn't really need anything like that.
My read on it is this.
Thats just how games of the gods work. Gork and Mork invested power into a scheme that would hatch the greatest exemplars of their respective races. A follower of Ranald however, happened on that wheel and spoked it, and all the cargo on the carriage that went caput landed in Ranald's lap, who then used the god bonies to spin a plot of his own. I kind of doubt he had Mandred becoming a Wizard Elector count in mind when he landed one of his greatest mortal followers as an Empress.
Gods can see significant people, or they can even nudge odds to make significant people, but they are still bound by random chance or getting waylaid by a different plot from some other god. Doesn't mean they don't know when to nudge someone and hope for the best. It just also doesn't mean that some people being meant for greatness absolutely will live up to that potential.
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- Location
- Greece
I agree with that interpretation. But that interpretation itself disagrees with the read that Abelheim being killed would spur Mathilde into doing greater things, which is what I was disagreeing with in the first place.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Every single member of the Expedition to Karag Dum could've died on the way, and yet a slayer wields The Axe of Grimnir up in troll country anyway.
EDIT: What i am trying to say is that it may not have worked out, sure. But it did.
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NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The situation regarding afterlives is very different between the real world and the Warhammer world is very different, in the real world as far as science has been able to determine there is no spiritual world or at least not one that interacts with the physical world, meaning it doesn't exist or is purely an epiphenomenon, if an souls do exist and there is an afterlife where they go to after the death of the physical body then either that truth was revealed to humanity in one of the many divine revelations in one of the world's many religions when the spiritual world was briefly not epiphenomenal and actually interacted with a person or persons in the physical world to reveal their was life after death or it is a belief that arose through pure wishful thinking that through some fluke happened to be right. If there is no spiritual world or afterlife and all we are are emergent processes that arise from computations in the biological neural network that is our brains then when those computations stop when we die so will we, it will be an utter cessation of existence, no suffering, no happiness, we'll return to the same state we were in as before we were born, utter oblivion and nonexistence.
In the Warhammer world the situation is quite different, there is a spiritual world, there are souls, there is an afterlife, multiple in fact, and most of them are not utterly hellish, and all of this is either easily provable or has a significant amount of evidence backing it up. Sure you could experience cessation of existence and the oblivion of nonexistence if your soul gets destroyed but that probably didn't happen to Abelhelm, he's almost certainly in Sigmar's or Morr's afterlife and is enjoying a decent quality of (after)life and will eventually be joined by Roswita and while Mathilde may not end up in the same afterlife as him if she ends up in Ranald's afterlife or ends up in Morr's but he's in Sigmar's there a good chance there's some sort of visitation system or some way to interact between the afterlives of allied gods.
It's a very different situation from real life where belief in the afterlife is split between those who believe through hope, faith, or just pure wishful thinking and those who don't believe and have either come to terms with their inevitable oblivion or constantly try to ignore the fact they're going to eventually die and do their best to tune it out because if they actually acknowledged it and its implications they wouldn't be able to function. But in Warhammer you don't have to wonder, the afterlife is real, its existence is provable, it (usually) isn't a horrible place to be, and you're going to end up there except under the very rare circumstance of someone diverting your soul's trajectory or destroying it outright. For all the horrible things that the inhabitants of the Warhammer world have to endure that is one comfort that we don't have the same assurance of.
In the Warhammer world the situation is quite different, there is a spiritual world, there are souls, there is an afterlife, multiple in fact, and most of them are not utterly hellish, and all of this is either easily provable or has a significant amount of evidence backing it up. Sure you could experience cessation of existence and the oblivion of nonexistence if your soul gets destroyed but that probably didn't happen to Abelhelm, he's almost certainly in Sigmar's or Morr's afterlife and is enjoying a decent quality of (after)life and will eventually be joined by Roswita and while Mathilde may not end up in the same afterlife as him if she ends up in Ranald's afterlife or ends up in Morr's but he's in Sigmar's there a good chance there's some sort of visitation system or some way to interact between the afterlives of allied gods.
It's a very different situation from real life where belief in the afterlife is split between those who believe through hope, faith, or just pure wishful thinking and those who don't believe and have either come to terms with their inevitable oblivion or constantly try to ignore the fact they're going to eventually die and do their best to tune it out because if they actually acknowledged it and its implications they wouldn't be able to function. But in Warhammer you don't have to wonder, the afterlife is real, its existence is provable, it (usually) isn't a horrible place to be, and you're going to end up there except under the very rare circumstance of someone diverting your soul's trajectory or destroying it outright. For all the horrible things that the inhabitants of the Warhammer world have to endure that is one comfort that we don't have the same assurance of.