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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Sparsebeard said:
To be frank, my only question with choosing Laurelorn is the question of how much autority we'll be able to have. After all, they are the only choice where I could see someone else than us being project lead. I feel that since they were the ones to approach us the power dynamics are a bit different from the other options.

I mean, I can't help but feel that having a human lead a Laurelorn governemental project might cause some ruffled feathers and have political implications...
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What human? I don't see a human, that is a dwarf and they kind of need her if they want to work with other dwarfs.
 
Valmond said:
Expensive equipment is not going to be an issue here, the only thing Praag really promises others do not are the ice witches and hags and a boss who is desperate for success (not always a good thing, someone trying to push things too far too fast can be an issue). And the waystone projet is just as much a matter of survival for Laurelorn, they need it not just to not die of chaos, but to make ties with the Empire so those idiot humans would stop chopping down their trees.

What we need is knowledge, not money, and i think Laurelorn is the place for knowledge we will find relevant, hough Carcassonne would also be a major provider in that context thanks to the Fey Enchantress. And both Laurelorn and Carcassonne have the benefit of a boss who not only understands what we are doing, but also have a much more extended timescale they are operating from, so a decade to them is nothing, and if we take a century that might not be an issue either.
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Oh, I agree that it is important for Laurelorn as well. I'm fine with that option winning, in part due to the massive library of books on offer and that deep lore. I did have trouble deciding between the two, which is why I flipped a coin in the end.

I didn't really like the Carcassone option. Like, as soon as Mathilde walked into the room and they ignored her initially, I immedietly knew what they were doing. I found it all amusing, but only for that scene. It would get very tedious in the long run and I felt Carcassone was offering far less than anyone else. Understandably, since it is a single Duchy, even with the Fey Enchantress living there, and they don't quite have the existential threats Laurelorn and Kislev have.

Boris came off as very forceful and had extremely high expectations for the Project. Those are the benefits and consequences of success on the scale Mathilde has had. But he is also a Kislevite and knows what she is working against. He listed off what he wanted for the Project, what he believed it might accomplish at its most successful. He will throw the resources of his entire nation behind it, since there is a chance it will work, but I imagine he is fully aware nothing is guaranteed. Will he want visible signs of success? Yes, but as I said, I think those will be quite possible to manage, especially with Praag to work with.

Kislev is also the best chance to get our own War Mammoth and kit it out to be a mobile Waystone and I really want one of those :V
 
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Inspirit said:
Oh, I agree that it is important for Laurelorn as well. I'm fine with that option winning, in part due to the massive library of books on offer and that deep lore. I did have trouble deciding between the two, which is why I flipped a coin in the end.

I didn't really like the Carcassone option. Like, as soon as Mathilde walked into the room and they ignored her initially, I immedietly knew what they were doing. I found it all amusing, but only for that scene. It would get very tedious in the long run and I felt Carcassone was offering far less than anyone else. Understandably, since it is a single Duchy, even with the Fey Enchantress living there, and they don't quite have the existential threats Laurelorn and Kislev have.

Boris came off as very forceful and had extremely high expectations for the Project. Those are the benefits and consequences of success on the scale Mathilde has had. But he is also a Kislevite and knows what she is working against. He listed off what he wanted for the Project, what he believed it might accomplish at its most successful. He will throw the resources of his entire nation behind it, since there is a chance it will work, but I imagine he is fully aware nothing is guaranteed. Will he want visible signs of success? Yes, but as I said, I think those will be quite possible to manage, especially with Praag to work with.

Kislev is also the best chance to get our own War Mammoth and kit it out to be a mobile Waystone and I really want one of those.
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Biggest problem here is that the resources of Kislev are not what we need, because gold is not going to fix this.
And a mobile waystone is so far beyond what success looks like that it is almost funny.
Personal attention of the Fey Enchantress is HUGE, and i would consider that alone easily more than what Kislev is offering.
I think you are underestimating the difficulty of what we are trying, and over estimating the signs of success we are likely to see.
 
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BoneyM said:
If Mathilde codifies a spell, then anyone can cast it without having to replicate her mental state and understanding of Ulgu. That's what codifying it means.



Most of the quotes being used in this discussion are from the last time I had this argument with you. You seem to be completely unable to accept the fact that mysticism can outdo a more detached 'scientific' approach to magic no matter how many times I explicitly say that it can and does. If you cannot or will not accept WoQM on this matter, please stay out of the debates concerning it.
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So implicit in my post was the idea that the elf would be taking decades and has the fall back of using high magic to achieve any effect they are looking to do. Ill grant i did use the phrase any mage but from the elf prospective all of their 'mages' can do high magic but if im wrong even with these caveats in mind fair enough.

So no amount elven knowledge on single wind of magic will ever match the depths a human can reach with a single wind magic would be an accurate assesment.

Edit: whoops posted before i was done typing. Hate using my mobile to post.

Surely that doesnt hold true though with high magic vs mono wind?
 
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Valmond said:
Biggest problem here is that the resources of Kislev are not what we need, because if gold is not going to fix this.
And a mobile waystone is so far beyond what success looks like that it is almost funny.
Personal attention of the Fey Enchantress is HUGE, and i would consider that alone easily more than what Kislev is offering.
I think you are underestimating the difficulty of what we are trying, and over estimating the signs of success we are likely to see.
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Considering the Waystone Tree's need gold and silver, I'd say the gold might be needed in large quantities. It's more the scale of support available. Kislev is offering everything they can. Everything. No one else is. Laurelorn comes close, because I see them in similar positions. They are offering what they believe will help, access to resources no one but they have had for millenia, but they aren't offering every single resource they can scrounge up. Economic, military, political, magical and religious, Kislev is willing to go all in.

The Fey Enchantress said she would give nudges and offer a Damsel. I read that as doublespeak for, "I'm very busy and interested, but I have many priorities. I'll pop by now and again. Have a student of mine to help." Which is a nice offer. Kislev meanwhile is offering two magic traditions, one that has Waystone experience and the other is heavily anti-chaos specced.

I think I have a pretty good idea of what I would like the success to look like if we did the project in Kislev. That would be some progress to removing the taint from Praag, or getting rid of it completely. I think that's a perfectly fine goal to work towards and I think it is something that we can achieve. I haven't got a clue what the goal could be with the Laurelorn option, but I'm sure it will be somewhat achievable.

I went back and edited the mammoth comment for clarity, since you seem to have took me seriously on that. I'm actually fine with just a normal War Mammoth of some sort :V
 
Inspirit said:
Considering the Waystone Tree's need gold and silver, I'd say the gold might be needed in large quantities. It's more the scale of support available. Kislev is offering everything they can. Everything. No one else is. Laurelorn comes close, because I see them in similar positions. They are offering what they believe will help, access to resources no one but they have had for millenia, but they aren't offering every single resource they can scrounge up. Economic, military, political, magical and religious, Kislev is willing to go all in.

The Fey Enchantress said she would give nudges and offer a Damsel. I read that as doublespeak for, "I'm very busy and interested, but I have many priorities. I'll pop by now and again. Have a student of mine to help." Which is a nice offer. Kislev meanwhile is offering two magic traditions, one that has Waystone experience and the other is heavily anti-chaos specced.

I think I have a pretty good idea of what I would like the success to look like if we did the project in Kislev. That would be some progress to removing the taint from Praag, or getting rid of it completely. I think that's a perfectly fine goal to work towards and I think it is something that we can achieve. I haven't got a clue what the goal could be with the Laurelorn option, but I'm sure it will be somewhat achievable.

I went back and edited the mammoth comment for clarity, since you seem to have took me seriously on that. I'm actually fine with just a normal War Mammoth of some sort :V
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Waystone trees are a terrible plan, because it just means you are now giving gold to random loggers and not reducing ambient magic.
Kislev is going all in (as far as Boris, who is not the ruler, can promise), but then i am more interested in what is offered, than what is offered relative to the means of the person offering, and i am not really seeing all that Kislev can offer as that significant. It is a lot, certainly, but not what we need the most.

And my read on Fey Enchantress giving nudges is double talk for "holy fuck this is awesome we need to get on this now", because they can't admit openly that Fey Enchantress would not already know everything necessary.
Sure she can't be there 24/7, she has duties and responsibilities, but access is access, and she would be providing some of the brightest Maidens to work on the project more fulltime.

I do not see Hags or Witches as that necessary for the project, helpfull, yes, definitely, but not to an extent that i would trade them for Fey Enchantress who is among the oldest and most knowledgeable casters in the Old World.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
So implicit in my post was the idea that the elf would be taking decades and has the fall back of using high magic to achieve any effect they are looking to do. Ill grant i did use the phrase any mage but from the elf prospective all of their 'mages' can do high magic but if im wrong even with these caveats in mind fair enough.
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Only a very small minority of Elves who use magic have dedicated the decades to centuries required to learn how to cast high magic. Using Elven Mages as the Elven benchmark is like using Lord Magisters or Grail Prophetesses as the standard for human magic use.

SuperSonicSound said:
So no amount elven knowledge on single wind of magic will ever match the depths a human can reach with a single wind magic would be an accurate assesment.

Surely that doesnt hold true though with high magic vs mono wind?
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If the only metric you consider is ability to cast high magic, then yes, you could twist any debate about relative merits of Elven vs human spellcasting styles into a clear win for the Elves. But as I've spent far too many words already trying to communicate, there are other factors. If given a century to study an Elven Archmage might be able to create a high magic alternative that is superior to the Rite of Way, but that approach would have had them arrive ninety-eight years late to the Expedition.
 
BoneyM said:
Only a very small minority of Elves who use magic have dedicated the decades to centuries required to learn how to cast high magic. Using Elven Mages as the Elven benchmark is like using Lord Magisters or Grail Prophetesses as the standard for human magic use.
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That strikes me as odd, so most Elven mages are apprentices by the standards of their own magical tradition?
 
BoneyM said:
If given a century to study an Elven Archmage might be able to create a high magic alternative that is superior to the Rite of Way, but that approach would have had them arrive ninety-eight years late to the Expedition.
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But could an Elf mage using only Ulgu do the math and create an equivalent spell in a shorter time than a few decades?

And how long does it take on average for an elf to reach Lord Magister level of spell casting in one Wind?
 
SuperSonicSound said:
That strikes me as odd, so most Elven mages are apprentices by the standards of their own magical tradition?
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They don't have a single monolithic magical tradition. What you seem to be thinking of as the 'standard' Elven magic-user is actually a product of Saphery's foremost tradition, but alongside their Mages and Archmages they also produce Loremasters, magic-users who seek enlightenment within the framework of the Winds, not High Magic.

K von Carstein said:
But could an Elf mage using only Ulgu do the math and create an equivalent spell in a shorter time than a few decades?
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Their greatest geniuses might be able to accomplish it, if they found a very promising starting point and were particularly inspired.

K von Carstein said:
And how long does it take on average for an elf to reach Lord Magister level of spell casting in one Wind?
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About the same amount of time as humans take.
 
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pucflek said:
Not many elves actually go on to become mages. All elves use magic, very few among them go on to be dedicated mages.
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Sure? but I'm talking about dedicated mages, obviously dilettantes wouldn't become high mages unless I suppose they lived for thousands of years.

BoneyM said:
They don't have a single monolithic magical tradition. What you seem to be thinking of as the 'standard' Elven magic-user is actually a product of Saphery's foremost tradition, but alongside their Mages and Archmages they also produce Loremasters, magic-users who seek enlightenment within the framework of the Winds, not High Magic.
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I'm curious do the wizards that make up those other magical traditions in Ulthuan also learn High magic at some point or are they mono wind purists? I guess that's not really in the scope of an ooc question especially as we're potentially going to Laurelorn soon and can find out on screen.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
I'm curious do the wizards that make up those other magical traditions in Ulthuan also learn High magic at some point or are they mono wind purists? I guess that's not really in the scope of an ooc question especially as we're potentially going to Laurelorn soon and can find out on screen.
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No, they wouldn't. Dragon Mages of Caledor, Shadow Warriors of Nagarythe, Mist-Mages of Eataine, Maiden Guard of Avelorn, none of them have high magic as part of their magical traditions.

fictionfan said:
Really? Do you mean if they are willing to let themselves be arcane marked?
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No. Magic comes naturally to Elves so they start of with an inherent advantage that gives them a head start, but humans are much more willing and able to be shaped by their Wind and end up much more attuned than Elves ever are and catch up to them in the end.
 
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From an individual perspective, I would absolutely prefer being an elf who slowly learns to use High Magic and not a human trained by the Colleges. The elf method doesn't rely on forcibly altering your own mind and soul, and doesn't dive towards gaining random arcane marks which could easily ruin your life. I can understand why the elves are smug - from the perspective of a High Mage, a Lord Magister is basically a crazy dumbass who got lucky playing Russian Roulette for a few decades until they could slightly surpass an elf apprentice. And from the perspective of said Lord Magister, the elf's development is slower but they still have a long and well-explored road ahead of them that they can simply follow to learn more magic (more winds, more spells, etc) - unlike the LM who has to try to invent new spells or get lucky with miscast management.

But as a polity starting up a new magic system, I'd pick the Colleges every time. A method that quickly creates effective battle-ready spellcasters and that allows for relatively fast (if unpredictable and risky) spell development? And all it costs are human lives? That's exactly what I want in the short and medium term. Sure in three hundred years I might regret not having High Magic + all the theory, but that's assuming my Colleges fail to produce any equally valuable new paradigm or cooperation system during those several hundred years of growth and usefulness.
 
BoneyM said:
No, they wouldn't. Dragon Mages of Caledor, Shadow Warriors of Nagarythe, Mist-Mages of Eataine, Maiden Guard of Avelorn, none of them have high magic as part of their magical traditions.
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OOC

Can an elven Archmage's ability to work magic be expected to grow with time, outside of just learning more? Asking because i am interested if Teclis can be expected to actually still grow stronger. :V Maybe if we manage to make the world hold up for century more, he will mop up all of its problems.
 
pucflek said:
OOC

Can an elven Archmage's ability to work magic be expected to grow with time, outside of just learning more? Asking because i am interested if Teclis can be expected to actually still grow stronger. :V Maybe if we manage to make the world hold up for century more, he will mop up all of its problems.
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He can still grow more skilled in handling magic, but not more metaphysically attuned to it.
 
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