Warmach1ne32
Machine of War and Quests
- Location
- Indonesia
[X] Kislev
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I'm curious do the Elves of the mono-wind traditions ever learn to use magic from outside of their main tradition or are they true purists, if so why would they be concerned about arcane marking?
As Elves can be arcane marked would a hypethetical elf with arcane marks have the same benefits that human wizards have with regards to be able to use intuitive leaps or is that categorically a humans only benefit?
Mathilde is the one connection the Eonir have with both Altdorf and the Karaz Ankor.
If she says no then the elves can forget about cooperation from both Colleges and the Dawi; not to mention whatever influence Mathilde might possibly have (or obtain in the future - she's one good duel away from the Supreme Seat and she's really young for her rank) on the Nordland/Middenland situation.
They're obviously going to be arrogant - because elves but it is unlikely the Eonir will burn bridges.
Well from an individual perspective being an Ulthuani elf means living for hundreds to thousands of years in one of the most advanced states in the world.
The individual human way of achieving something similar to the default elf state is vampirism, becoming a Grail Knight/Damsel or some sort of one off magic ascension thingy.
Elf traditions certainly aren't good for short and mid term building from scratch - the elves never had to do that because whilst they've lost some capabilities over time they never got broken down to scraps like human hedge mages in the Empire were before Teclis came in and started a regimented, orderly, knowledge based magic training program.
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
In canon dragon mages use only Aqshy, but do the mages following all those traditions use only one Wind too, or can they cast spells from several Lores? And if yes, could we learn more about them?
Also, I an elf learn spells from one Lore then get an arcane mark from another, can he still cast spells from that first Lore? Or get arcane marks from different Lores?
Does it bother you when people ask so much question?
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I thought that since only less than 1% of humans have any affinity for magic at all it would only be fair if the ones that did at least have an equal affinity. Or are you counting the all the perpetual apprentices?
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Fair? What's fair got to do with it?
Any way bell curve distribution of talent and affinity would mean that generally if the starting point is higher you'd expect that given the same range of ability from bare talent to super genius that the Elves would have more people on the higher end than humans do.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Not when humans out number elfs more than a hundred to 1.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
This again on the merits of human and elvish spellcasting? Might as well compare Dwarfish Runecraft and Human windmagic for all their apparent similarities. Or the Grey Collage and Amber College in their ability to handle Shyish in terms of 'objective goodness' of their spellcasting tradition.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
I'm actually highly interested in seeing what the Grey Lords might be able to teach Mathilde about just Ulgu. They're not a dedicated mono-wind tradition and humans are quicker at growing, but they're still one of the oldest magical traditions in the world with magical writings from some of the biggest magic names ever and an absolutely ancient and—most importantly—unmolested library. The colleges will surpass them eventually, but right now? We've got books written by the guy who built the fucking Vortex, IIRC. That's pretty cool.
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- Location
- UK
Honestly that's the big part for me, the Colleges magic tradition is still so young it has yet to properly delve into its depths and develop entirely unique advantages beyond those innately rising from being human. It would be like judging modern humans against theoretical early elves who's only advantage was a faster start, having yet to develop High Magic.
Just as a random thought that I think could very well fit human magic, imagine if in a few centuries the colleges develop a ritual to give specific Arcane Marks safely. Imagine every wizard upon starting their journeying gets a free +1 magic from the Mark of Ulgu or their wind equivalent. Imagine if we could do that for every human in the Empire.
Give the colleges another thousand years to figure out and build on their strengths, and you can maybe start to compare them with elves traditions of thousands of years ago.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Given that number of humans that have don't have magical ability at all vs those that do is probably close to that hundred to 1 ratio for having magical ability at all, factor in that the number of humans actually taught magic doesn't catch all human magical sensitives as well.
- Location
- Austria
Weren't humans engineered to be more mutable than Elves by Old Ones? If yes, then elves physically cannot attune to monowind (or monogod, or chaos god, or...) as well as humans.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Well that's the standard explanation for why Elves weren't getting Arcane marks in 2e. That doesn't apply here. Elves don't get arcane marks because they cast more carefully and any that do are dropped for being talentless hacks. Elven souls may react differently to Arcane marks and so they are pure negatives but I expect that isn't true or else Teclis would never have taught humans to cast in that way.
What I'm wondering is if the Saphery tradition of magic integrates all the techniques and knowledge of the monowind traditions that exist in Ulthuan or if there's significant goodies we could learn from the Shadow mages for instance.
- Location
- Norway
That depends on how far out on the distribution you are. Bell curves are unintuitive that way. Example numbers made up here to illustrate.
If there's 500 humans for every elf,
magic follows a normal distribution with a standard deviation of 1, ('normal distribution' is a technical math term)
humans average 0 magic and elves average 2 magic,
then humans will have more 3+ magic users than elves,
but elves will have more 4+ magic users than humans.
Bit late to do this but looks like the overall situation in terms of location unique challenges:
-Karak Eight Peaks
--Maximum politics route.
--Easier to get the Cult of Thungni on board with the project if its in dwarf hands, however, it is still incredibly difficult to get the most hidebound and traditional subgroup of dwarfs to embrace what is either a new and untested idea, or an old and proven flawed idea.
---If it fails, the Cult can and likely will actively block recruitment of runesmiths to the project. Other locations can discreetly recruit a radical runesmith and avoid the matter coming to the greater cult's attention, not in a dwarfhold.
--Easier to get Thorgrim to reveal that the Karaz Ankor has an active monitoring system for their network. However, it is still incredibly difficult to get a secret out of him that is only known to him and entrusted to him by the prior king.
---Belegar is willing and able to apply pressure to get Thorgrim to talk, however if THAT fails there is a dangerous possibility of dwarfholds secession from Karaz-A-Karak as a bargaining measure.
-Laurelorn
--Trust is in short supply.
--The dwarves don't trust the elves, even if they lack specific outstanding grudges. It is down to Mathilde's reputation and dwarf diplomacy familiarity to get someone willing.
--Laurelorn's reputation amongst humans makes it challenging to get the less daring human researchers and mages to buy in. Not a stopping problem, but people are understandably reluctant togo into the woods where people get disappeared by elves.
--Ulthuan mages may not be well trusted in the other direction, or they'd be on the project already.
--Laurelorn itself doesn't exactly have a lot of trust to spare either, they're just desperate enough to overlook that imperials keep breaking treaties they've agreed to.
--And of course we'd be sticking an oar into the Nordland Mess, but its been a terrible mess for the Empire and its institutions since the start of the quest, and from what we know, Nordland winning is worse for everyone except Nordland's economy.
-Kislev
--Treading on thin ice.
--Kislev is willing to put ALL possible state resources to make it happen, by hook or by crook, by spending all available favor and gold to make anyone they need play along.
--This is both the boon and the bane, the very groups they cite as being able to force into line are groups which are known for being prideful and powerful in their own right.
--Unrest from going overboard on a project that most people do not comprehend the need of, as it happens, is very exploitable by malign forces right next door.
--And should results not materialize swiftly enough, the situation may become very sticky.
-Carcassone
--A privileged club
--The locals considers this useful, but not a dire need by far.
--Few benefits as a result, but the threats are distinctly local in flavor, and hinted at as ways to earn more favor.
--You can drive a truck through the loopholes in their laws, but only while you have their buy in.
--Martial feats are good currencies.
-Karak Eight Peaks
--Maximum politics route.
--Easier to get the Cult of Thungni on board with the project if its in dwarf hands, however, it is still incredibly difficult to get the most hidebound and traditional subgroup of dwarfs to embrace what is either a new and untested idea, or an old and proven flawed idea.
---If it fails, the Cult can and likely will actively block recruitment of runesmiths to the project. Other locations can discreetly recruit a radical runesmith and avoid the matter coming to the greater cult's attention, not in a dwarfhold.
--Easier to get Thorgrim to reveal that the Karaz Ankor has an active monitoring system for their network. However, it is still incredibly difficult to get a secret out of him that is only known to him and entrusted to him by the prior king.
---Belegar is willing and able to apply pressure to get Thorgrim to talk, however if THAT fails there is a dangerous possibility of dwarfholds secession from Karaz-A-Karak as a bargaining measure.
-Laurelorn
--Trust is in short supply.
--The dwarves don't trust the elves, even if they lack specific outstanding grudges. It is down to Mathilde's reputation and dwarf diplomacy familiarity to get someone willing.
--Laurelorn's reputation amongst humans makes it challenging to get the less daring human researchers and mages to buy in. Not a stopping problem, but people are understandably reluctant togo into the woods where people get disappeared by elves.
--Ulthuan mages may not be well trusted in the other direction, or they'd be on the project already.
--Laurelorn itself doesn't exactly have a lot of trust to spare either, they're just desperate enough to overlook that imperials keep breaking treaties they've agreed to.
--And of course we'd be sticking an oar into the Nordland Mess, but its been a terrible mess for the Empire and its institutions since the start of the quest, and from what we know, Nordland winning is worse for everyone except Nordland's economy.
-Kislev
--Treading on thin ice.
--Kislev is willing to put ALL possible state resources to make it happen, by hook or by crook, by spending all available favor and gold to make anyone they need play along.
--This is both the boon and the bane, the very groups they cite as being able to force into line are groups which are known for being prideful and powerful in their own right.
--Unrest from going overboard on a project that most people do not comprehend the need of, as it happens, is very exploitable by malign forces right next door.
--And should results not materialize swiftly enough, the situation may become very sticky.
-Carcassone
--A privileged club
--The locals considers this useful, but not a dire need by far.
--Few benefits as a result, but the threats are distinctly local in flavor, and hinted at as ways to earn more favor.
--You can drive a truck through the loopholes in their laws, but only while you have their buy in.
--Martial feats are good currencies.
Kornet
Quite possibly a sloth abomination
- Location
- Mother Russia
I mean, we actually can just go on the damn elfcation and find out.
Learning from shadow warrior shadowmancers was exactly the intent behind us being given this opportunity.
Humans are metaphysically adaptive in a way that Elves aren't, so it shouldn't be assumed that they'd have the same mostly benign-to-beneficial results from having their souls mutated by magical exposure.
Unknown. They're not big on sharing.
Fairness isn't a huge component of the Warhammer setting.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
They're no more an enclave than Bretonnia or Kislev are. They're an independent polity that borders the Empire. Notably, they also have a coastline of their own, so trading with other polities without going through the Empire is a choice they can make.
Wait, Quest canon is that Loremasters don't do High Magic? Wow.
Only if they have a port, shipyard and navy, and I just realised that I have no idea if they have any of those things.
Either way, having a coastline doesn't automatically mean trade; you need to exploit it first, and since isolationism has been a major policy for however thousands of years, I doubt that they've committed a ton of resources in that direction.
So in a roundabout way, I suppose they did chose not to trade by not investing in a port.
Tabletop canon is that Loremasters don't do High Magic. They're described as researchers, philosophers and artists who spend most of their life dedicated to one form of magical scholarship or another, and their abilities on the battlefield are a mere side-effect of that.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
So... Lord Magisters to the archmage's Battlemage?
Sort of, though it would be more accurate to say that Elven society has forms of magical expression and development that the Empire lacks entirely, since the Colleges are dedicated to war first, research second, and art not at all.
Something else that may be relevant to elven spellcasting is that it's not purely arcane. Elven Mages are also rocking Lileath's Blessing that makes them significantly better at casting (high, by the rules) magic.
That's probably something to do with how elves consider that they are mantling their gods as they think and act, and that when casting a spell they're acting as/being the relevant god.
An elf may not become more magically attuned to the Winds, but I can see it as being possible for them to better adopt the mien of one or more of their gods and improving that way.
That's probably something to do with how elves consider that they are mantling their gods as they think and act, and that when casting a spell they're acting as/being the relevant god.
An elf may not become more magically attuned to the Winds, but I can see it as being possible for them to better adopt the mien of one or more of their gods and improving that way.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Tabletop canon is that they're fully graduated mages though. They just don't do much in the way of learning magic for combat.
Which implies interesting things about how the Asur think of magic but I digress. Obviously , Quest canon can be whatever you want, but you do run into weird problems if you run with Loremasters being lesser than Mages though. Loremasters run the Tower, Teclis was a Loremaster when he founded the Colleges etc.